Bills 2021 rookie class ranked 27th in league

[NewEra]

22 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

No.

 

Look around the league. Look in the locker room. He's a two-time Pro Bowler. Most folks aren't in that grey area.

 

Most of what you are calling the grey area I believe still just don't get it. Where are the folks in the locker room who say he's in this grey area you mention? Are they the ones who've voted him captain three years in a row? The ones who 

 

A lot of your grey group indeed thinks he's not worthy of what he'll be paid next year. Where are all those folks in he locker room. They aren't in Beane's office. The Bills love the guy.

 

Great MLBs don't have great physical attributes? Seriously? That's what you're arguing? Yeah, I'd call that nonsense. Edmunds is indeed tall, rangy and fast, but he's also brainy, a leader, willing to play hurt, tough and excellent in the pass game.

 

There are a few great MLBs who weren't physically trait-packed, Zach Thomas for example. But they are few and far between. Most great MLBs (and other positions besides) wouldn't have become great if they didn't have terrific physical traits. Butkus was strong as a horse and hard-hitting, and that was his main attribute, though he had others. 

 

This grey are you mention is indeed bigger than the ones who think he sucks. But it still isn't a big group and nearly all of them are Buffalo fans.

 

In any case, do you see me writing the kind of post I wrote above to more measured posts about the guy, outside of posts that are specifically talking to me like this one? Or more often to the nutballs and fruitcakes with the desperate need to denigrate him whether or not it requires a thread be napped?

 

There certainly is room for discussion on the guy. Anyone who says he's elite is as wrong as the folks screaming about how awful he is. He's got his faults, there's a lot of room for intelligent reasonable criticism. But most of what he gets isn't that. The loudest voices on him are the least worth listening to, I'd say. 

 

 

He’s a two time pro bowler.  Lol.  Oh man.  You’re better than that man.  
 

I said he was good….please don’t act like every player that makes the pro bowl is a franchise changing player, and elite talent or untraceable.  Several pro bowl players move on the following year.  Cole Beasley was 1 team ALL PRO.  Is he THAT good?  No.  He’s good.  Like edmunds.  You’re love affair for this dude is ridiculous and you’ll die on that hill.  
 

He’s the Harrison Barnes (my favorite NBA player) of MLBs.  Super talented and gifted but something in the brain is keeping them from being great.  Good players that could’ve been great……that we’re overpaid based on potential.  Look at barnes since he left the warriors.  Never made the playoffs.  Not because he wasn’t good, but because he was paid too much. 

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

When asked in his season ending presser about Edmunds, Beane essentially said he “does a great job with the play calls and getting everyone lined up.” That was his biggest praise. He didn’t sound at all like a GM who was ready to sign Edmunds to a long term extension.

 

Since his rookie year, Edmunds makes almost no impact plays (INTs, FFs, FRs, sacks) and still makes many of the same mistakes. Brace yourself for disappointment when Edmunds moves on after his 5th year option. You’ve been by far his loudest supporter. It’s not “a small group of fans” as you alluded to, it’s the majority - proven by the poll here where 75% of TBDers want to move on from Edmunds in some fashion. We’d all love for Tremaine to be a player other teams have to game plan or account for, but I don’t think he’ll ever get to that point. He is what he is and it’s closer to a JAG than playmaker.

 

 

Yes, very few impact plays, as long as you are willing to ignore all the impact plays that don't happen to fit into your categories. Doing which would be ridiculous.

 

That makes a bit more sense if you say "splash plays" instead. It's true he didn't make a ton of the spectacular plays. This is a team defense

 

Impact plays should include plays where he stops a guy short of the first down. Plays where a QB comes off his first read to his second, sees Tremaine nearby, thinks about it but goes to his third and the rush can get there and cause a sack, an INT from pressure or an important incompletion. People don't want to treat those as impact plays, but they absolutely are. The Bills D is a team defense. 

 

When you look at the passing charts for opposing QBs on nextgenstats what you see is that over the middle there are very few passes thrown between the five and about the 18. And that's a pretty common area to target against most defenses. That's the Tremaine effect, or part of it.

 

He doesn't get a lot of INTs because QBs don't like to throw near him. He doesn't get a lot of sacks because he doesn't rush a whole lot. I'd like to see him do more swiping at the ball, but Bills tacklers don't seem to be coached to do that except from behind and if you're not the first guy in the play. Tremaine generally wraps up, which is good but won't get you a lot of fumbles caused. Does he need to improve? Sure. Would I like to see him get more of those? Yeah, who wouldn't. But he still does a good job of doing what they want him to do.

 

And while I have to go to sleep now, so I can't track down exactly what Beane said, I think, "essentially said he 'does a great job with the play calls and getting everyone lined up," is a distortion. Yeah, he said that. It wasn't all he said, and it wasn't essentially what he said. If I have time tomorrow, I'll look up the exact words. Maybe I'm wrong, I'll see tomorrow. But when they say that they're usually saying it in the context of pointing out that Tremaine does more than many people understand and that he's got a tough and extremely crucial job to do even before the snap and that that's always worth pointing out since so many don't want to talk about it as it's pretty Inside Football stuff and kind of boring to some.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Thurman#1

[Saint Doug]

2 hours ago, Long Suffering Fan said:

 

It actually does work that way.  Drafting at the top is an advantage.  Of course, that does not make your team instantly good....or ever good.  As you mention, see the Sabres.

 

If you draft bad, you can fritter away your draft position, but there is a reason that teams trade up.

I know you weren’t the one who opened this can of worms, but I don’t think it’s fair to compare the NHL to the NFL draft. The NHL draft targets players years away from actually making the team. This makes it very hard to prognosticate success. It’s more of a crapshoot, even for the top 10. Plus, 1st rounders in the NFL are expected to be stars, whereas NHL 1st rounders are expected to be NHL regulars in the least. 

[Malazan]

2 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

For some reason, that's how these online sports forums are.

 

They are predominantly made up of kool aid drinkers incapable of critical objective analysis.

 

Here is the irony---those who defend Edmunds now (for example) will make jokes about him the moment we move on from him and he is on some other team.

 

It never fails! 

 

😯

 

Then there's you who's just always wrong and pretends that everyone is a kool-aid drinker because you're just really, really bad at being objective yourself. I've heard horse tranquillizer can help with that though. Drink up. 

[transient]

2 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

It doesn't work that way.

 

There isn't necessarily a correlation between draft order and draft quality.

 

The top teams in the draft year after year often remain terrible--look at the Buffalo Sabres.

 

And they are picking at the top.

 

27th for the Bills is NOT a good score but the drafting has been pretty terrible under this regime.

 

 

From the day McDermott walked in the door through 2020 they had 30 picks. 11 of them are starters, 9 of them are filling a significant role in certain packages or providing solid depth, 6 are still in the league with other teams (including Wyatt Teller, Zay Jones, Ray-Ray McCloud, Darryl Johnson, and Jake Fromm), and 4 are either out of the league or on practice squads somewhere, none of whom were drafted higher than the 5th round.

 

This doesn't include the 2021 draft class that used the 1st and 2nd round picks regularly in their DL rotation, or their current starting RT.

 

They drafted and developed Allen, Milano, White, Dawkins, Bass, Knox, Davis, Brown.

 

Singletary has had his moments when they're using him correctly. Edmunds may be polarizing, but he's an effective starting MLB. Oliver is coming into his own. Phillips was coming on the second half of the season after the knee injury.

 

The jury is out on Epenesa, and so far he's underperformed. Cody Ford is probably the only obvious bust.

 

How is this "pretty terrible"?

[Meatloaf63]

2 hours ago, Mango said:

McBeane has struggled to find immediate impact in the draft. Especially in the top 100 picks.

This entire board has shown concern for that the last few years.

 

But one article points that out and everybody gets a stick up their butt.

 

Our best pick so far was Brown. By far. Groot was not exciting. Basham couldn’t get on the field. 
 

McBeane have to be better here. Have to! Allen is still only taking $16M next year. We can’t afford to have players in the top 100 picks come on just before new contracts (Oliver, Harry)

We can’t afford to fail in another draft. I don’t think the cap has been managed as good as people think it has. Too many middling players at too high of a salary and now we are up against the cap with several areas that need improvement. We have to renegotiate and make some tough choices. A difference  maker is needed on defense but that doesn’t seem to fit in with how this team has been built. 
I wouldn’t have minded a few in season moves to help us over the hump. What’s better, blowing it all on a Super Bowl or just getting close and and settling for second or third best year after year. I am still disgusted that Cincinnati, F’ing Cincinnati made it before us, and there’s no guarantee we ever get there.

[LABILLBACKER]

So far kinda a C+/B- draft. Groot had that one amazing day but didn't really sustain much. He absolutely has to have a 7-8 sack season at the least this fall. Basham looks slow and more like a 3T than a pass rusher. Spencer needs to get stronger in his legs so guys like Ingram don't toss him to the ground like a little kid. He'll improve at RT. Didn't see enough of Doyle to have an assessment. Stevenson was supposed to be that speed wr and return guy but he was awful and will likely get cut. Wildgoose/Anderson gone.  At this point you gotta pray Brown & Rousseau improve. We need a marquee pass rusher in the worst way.

[78thealltimegreat]

Beane is lucky he hit on Josh cause his picks in the top 2 rounds haven’t been to great…in Brandon’s defense he’s really hit on players in 3 and 4 

But man he needs to not use the Carolina and Green Bay model and keep asking his Demigod he has as QB to

make middle round picks into pro bowlers 

Draft Josh a weapon in the first two rounds for a change 

[All_Pro_Bills]

Going into last year's draft the Bills didn't have a lot of perceived holes in their roster.  They got two rotational players on the defensive line (when Basham was in the line up), a RT starter in Brown precipitated by injuries, and Doyle who came on later in the season as a swing tackle and 6th lineman in certain formations and play calls.

 

But I think there's a different approach to the draft when you're looking to build a roster, or draft to stock certain position groups where you expect to lose veterans in free agency in a year or two, or in situations where the Bills are now.  Where you need to add a couple players to add marginal improvement in performance in a couple places to get you over the top.  

 

My take is Beane needs to alter his approach and go into the draft with the goal of finding 2 or 3, maybe 4 players that will plug in as starters or big contributors week one.  Not high potential projects or college players that need a year or two of pro experience.  It needs to be "all in" for 2022.  That means finding a day one starter at corner opposite Tre White, an upgrade/addition at LB, DT, and some size and speed at the RB spot.  Sure if a player drops in your lap that takes you in another direction that needs to be considered or there might be spots other posters think are more in need than what I think but its win now and the team can't go into the 2002 draft and free agency period with any other goal in mind.   

Edited February 5, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills

[Rocky Landing]

Spencer Brown was the steal of the draft. (Ya hear me, @Zerovoltz?) And while I haven't been a real fan of Bobby Johnson, I do think he (and Daboll) did a great job of developing him, and Doyle (and Boettger, for that matter).

 

[LABILLBACKER]

17 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Beane is lucky he hit on Josh cause his picks in the top 2 rounds haven’t been to great…in Brandon’s defense he’s really hit on players in 3 and 4 

But man he needs to not use the Carolina and Green Bay model and keep asking his Demigod he has as QB to

make middle round picks into pro bowlers 

Draft Josh a weapon in the first two rounds for a change 

If you struggle to get value with your 1st & 2nd round picks, maybe go the Diggs route and trade the pick for proven young talent. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

4 hours ago, Long Suffering Fan said:

 

It actually does work that way.  Drafting at the top is an advantage.  Of course, that does not make your team instantly good....or ever good.  As you mention, see the Sabres.

 

If you draft bad, you can fritter away your draft position, but there is a reason that teams trade up.

Yes and no. For the top 15 players sure. After that there isn't much difference for the next 50 or so.  And after the first round there are so many trades and comp picks that draft position really doesn't matter. 

 

I criticize Beane alot and he deserves criticism for taking Basham and not Humphrey.  But getting a starting DE and RT is not terrible. The fact his second round pick barely played is really disappointing.  Groot looks ok. Brown looked ok but also looked awful at times. Brown would have never seen the field if Beane's worst bust Cody Ford was playing. 

[Rocky Landing]

I think it's also worth mentioning that along with drafting so late in the round, we also had so much continuity going into '21, that we were essentially drafting for backup positions. It's hard for players to make much of an impact if they're not likely to see the field. That being said, Groot could very well develop into a serious threat, and Spencer Brown developed spectacularly. And just the fact that six of our draft picks were on the 53 makes that a successful draft, IMO.

[78thealltimegreat]

28 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

If you struggle to get value with your 1st & 2nd round picks, maybe go the Diggs route and trade the pick for proven young talent. 

I’d be open to it we need to keep adding to what Josh has I don’t want his prime years wasted because his GM just expects him to make anyone a pro bowl level receiver 

[BuffBillsForLife]

Brown is the only one who looks like he can be a long-term starter if he can keep up his play from the latter part of the season.  Groot looked good early but fell off the face of the earth after the regular season chiefs game.  The others might as well not exist, or can actively hurt the team like Stevenson running into his own blockers.

 

Now, if a good team can find a potentinal long-term starter at a position of need (OL) in the draft that's pretty good.  But Beane seems like he really needs to change how he evaluates D-linemen in the draft because the investment has been absolutely immense but an ancient Jerry Hughes is still our best D-lineman.  And to think, Hughes used to be our worst D-lineman when Schwartz was DC.

[Beast]

Rookies aren't going to get a whole

lot of time to shine on a roster like the Bills have.

[Brand J]

4 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yes, very few impact plays, as long as you are willing to ignore all the impact plays that don't happen to fit into your categories. Doing which would be ridiculous.

 

That makes a bit more sense if you say "splash plays" instead. It's true he didn't make a ton of the spectacular plays. This is a team defense

 

Impact plays should include plays where he stops a guy short of the first down. Plays where a QB comes off his first read to his second, sees Tremaine nearby, thinks about it but goes to his third and the rush can get there and cause a sack, an INT from pressure or an important incompletion. People don't want to treat those as impact plays, but they absolutely are. The Bills D is a team defense. 

 

When you look at the passing charts for opposing QBs on nextgenstats what you see is that over the middle there are very few passes thrown between the five and about the 18. And that's a pretty common area to target against most defenses. That's the Tremaine effect, or part of it.

 

He doesn't get a lot of INTs because QBs don't like to throw near him. He doesn't get a lot of sacks because he doesn't rush a whole lot. I'd like to see him do more swiping at the ball, but Bills tacklers don't seem to be coached to do that except from behind and if you're not the first guy in the play. Tremaine generally wraps up, which is good but won't get you a lot of fumbles caused. Does he need to improve? Sure. Would I like to see him get more of those? Yeah, who wouldn't. But he still does a good job of doing what they want him to do.

 

And while I have to go to sleep now, so I can't track down exactly what Beane said, I think, "essentially said he 'does a great job with the play calls and getting everyone lined up," is a distortion. Yeah, he said that. It wasn't all he said, and it wasn't essentially what he said. If I have time tomorrow, I'll look up the exact words. Maybe I'm wrong, I'll see tomorrow. But when they say that they're usually saying it in the context of pointing out that Tremaine does more than many people understand and that he's got a tough and extremely crucial job to do even before the snap and that that's always worth pointing out since so many don't want to talk about it as it's pretty Inside Football stuff and kind of boring to some.

Impact plays/splash plays, call it what you want, it’s semantics and points to the same issue - Tremaine doesn’t make many of them. “Ignoring all the impact plays that don’t happen” is quite possibly the most baseless argument I’ve ever heard one use to defend a player. It’s an argument built on supposition and assumption. We might as well say, “Mario Addison makes impact plays when he rushes and forces the QB off his spot - even if he misses the sack - because it prevented the QB from seeing a player running free in the secondary.” That’s your argument.

I don’t judge Tremaine or the rest of the defense by what they do against teams like the Jets, Texans, and Panthers. How does he and everyone else fare when they face a competent offense?
 

“Tremaine doesn’t get sacks because he’s not asked to rush the passer” (actually he does rush the passer, but sucks at it), “Tremaine doesn’t get interceptions because QBs don’t like throwing at him” (truth is he lacks ball skills, awareness, and has suspect hands). What else? Oh, “Tremaine doesn’t force fumbles because Bills defenders aren’t coached to go after the ball” (it’s preached ad nauseam to go after the football, I’ve heard defenders say this time and time again and even brought in Peanut Tillman to teach the technique).
The sad thing is you can’t even recognize the amount of excuses you’re making for the player because you’re convinced he’s something more than he is. 
If you watch the Beane presser, you’ll also see he describes Tremaine as “getting better”  playing with strength, getting off of blocks, and developing the alpha male mentality leaders need. You’ll also see it’s quite obvious from Beane’s body language and the way he speaks about Tremaine, he’s not completely sold on the player and like all of us, wants to see his game raise a level before talks of a contract extension. 
I half think you’re just trolling with your excuses.

This was in an article before the Patriots matchup with the Bills on MNF:

Quote

According to Pro Football Focus, Edmunds ranks among the league’s worst coverage linebackers. He’s allowed catches on 32 of 37 targets for 337 yards and two touchdowns. That’s 10.5 yards per reception, good enough for a first down on most snaps

Opponents have targeted Edmunds more often as the season has wore on. Don’t expect the Patriots to become an exception Monday.

But didn’t you just say QBs are scared to throw in his direction?

Edited February 5, 2022 by JayBaller10

[FLFan]

9 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

For some reason, that's how these online sports forums are.

 

They are predominantly made up of kool aid drinkers incapable of critical objective analysis.

 

Here is the irony---those who defend Edmunds now (for example) will make jokes about him the moment we move on from him and he is on some other team.

 

It never fails! 

 

😯

What never fails is that there is always some arrogant type who proclaims their opinions “critical objective analysis” while denigrating others who disagree as “koolaid drinkers”.  

Edited February 6, 2022 by FLFan

[Zerovoltz]

3 hours ago, Rocky Landing said:

Spencer Brown was the steal of the draft. (Ya hear me, @Zerovoltz?) And while I haven't been a real fan of Bobby Johnson, I do think he (and Daboll) did a great job of developing him, and Doyle (and Boettger, for that matter).

 

...was he a third round pick?  Im not saying he isn't a good pick....getting anyone that starts in round 3 is always good..but steal of the draft?

[Brand J]

I’d say Trey Smith was the steal of the draft. A late 1st, early 2nd round talent that dropped to the 6th because of health concerns. Knowing we needed interior help, I’m still kinda upset Beane didn’t gamble on him in the 5th or 6th round, instead we picked players who are no longer with the team.