Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[TheFunPolice]

If Mike Tomlin's contract expired and he decided to become a free agent coach he would be among (if not THE) most sought after HC candidate, both college and NFL programs would be tossing offers his way trying to lure him to their team. He could walk in and demand the John Gruden contract and probably get it. 

 

Why? Because the man wins and he is a great coach. 

 

Now, I get the entire point is to find more Mike Tomlins, and I agree. But labelling team executives as racists is not constructive, and not even true in most cases IMO.

 

The solution is to get more minority coaches working as OC's with top QBs. That's the quickest way to a HC job. Bienemy is the exception, but maybe the rumors are true and he just doesn't interview well?

 

Most teams with HC openings either have a young QB or are going to invest a high pick in one, and want someone who can develop that talent and maximize the franchise's investment. 

 

This time around, the Jacksonville job was Leftwich's, but he demanded a new GM and the team wasn't willing to make the change. Good for him not going into a bad spot, but it's not like that process was at fault. Really it was Leftwich who made the call. 

 

It's a bit more complicated than saying "the NFL is racist" because the NFL is a name. Really Flores is saying that the Broncos owners and management, and the Giants owners and management, and the Dolphins owners and management, are racist. And I don't think that is true given the circumstances. 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[Warcodered]

4 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

If Mike Tomlin's contract expired and he decided to become a free agent coach he would be among (if not THE) most sought after HC candidate, both college and NFL programs would be tossing offers his way trying to lure him to their team. He could walk in and demand the John Gruden contract and probably get it. 

 

Why? Because the man wins and he is a great coach. 

 

Now, I get the entire point is to find more Mike Tomlins, and I agree. But labelling team executives as racists is not constructive, and not even true in most cases IMO.

Not getting into the whole argument of if there's discrimination/a problem in the hiring process, just noting that this point seems kind of counterintuitive. The only black HC is one that the owners would have to be really stupid not to hire, meanwhile the Texans seriously consider Josh "*****" McCown.

[TheFunPolice]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

Not getting into the whole argument of if there's discrimination/a problem in the hiring process, just noting that this point seems kind of counterintuitive. The only black HC is one that the owners would have to be really stupid not to hire, meanwhile the Texans seriously consider Josh "*****" McCown.

 

Well, that's true but the Texans seem like a special kind of messed up!

[Patrick Duffy]

2 minutes ago, Warcodered said:

Not getting into the whole argument of if there's discrimination/a problem in the hiring process, just noting that this point seems kind of counterintuitive. The only black HC is one that the owners would have to be really stupid not to hire, meanwhile the Texans seriously consider Josh "*****" McCown.

Lol yeah really, real head scratcher there. I can see as a QB coach to help with Mills or something, but I don't get it as HC. 

[colin]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

This article breaks down the odds that the racial makeup of NFL's HC hiring is the result of unbiased selection

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/nearly-all-nfl-head-coaches-are-white-what-are-the-odds/ar-AATyGmO

 

Makes a lot of the points made upthread, that the relevant numbers to look at are not the overall population, but the applicant pool.

 

Critiques Flores lawsuit which references the % of black players when alleging systematic discrimination

 

But points out even looking at the qualified applicant pool, the results we're seeing are still unlikely to be reached by random selection:

 

 

It then points out that since the NFL teams are also responsible for hiring and promoting coaches to OC, they are also responsible for the disparity in the hiring pool.

 

Then it looks at the odds of the current HC hiring given the racial makeup of the coordinator pool:

 

Also discusses racial makeup of NCAA players since 2/3 of coaches did not play in the NFL

 

Good read IMHO for people who want a fact and reason based approach to the issue.  Concludes that there does appear to be a bias problem, indicating that the Rooney rule has not been applied in good faith

 

It also supports (but doesn't state) what several in this thread have implied: that Flores lawsuit was slapped together hastily without much research or care for the comparisons it uses

 

 

 

 

if instead of just looking at all coordinators, you look at ones who's teams have good records, or have good stats for their side of the ball, and in particular filter that via how much credit is broadly given to the OC/DC vs the players (dude out of colts w the corpse of wentz as qb, for example), then you might still get a different answer.

 

the idea that "population A looks like X, so population B should look like X as well" should be examined a bit more closely if one is looking for honest answers, but as in most cases i doubt that one is.

 

 

[stuvian]

has Bruce Arians given any indication of his intentions?

[TheFunPolice]

4 minutes ago, stuvian said:

has Bruce Arians given any indication of his intentions?

 

He should just retire and they could simply promote Leftwich after a quick interview. Arians has looked awful, his body is breaking down, and it's about to be a LOT less fun when you're not coaching a super team. 

 

The Rooney Rule doesn't say you can't just promote a minority coach to HC, does it? That wouldn't make much sense. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[ndirish1978]

 

This guy is all for equality, as long as it means he is equally hired over others. I mean, it's pretty crappy to say "congrats, no way you were hired because you're better than me."

Edited February 8, 2022 by ndirish1978

[Process]

Lol

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Process said:

Lol

 

 

 

This guy's ego is out of control. 

 

Seriously, do his attorneys have any idea how badly that comes across?

 

 

1 hour ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

He should just retire and they could simply promote Leftwich after a quick interview. Arians has looked awful, his body is breaking down, and it's about to be a LOT less fun when you're not coaching a super team. 

 

The Rooney Rule doesn't say you can't just promote a minority coach to HC, does it? That wouldn't make much sense. 

 

You can promote an internal candidate, sure, but you still have to interview 2 external candidates as far as I know.

[Chaos]

On 2/4/2022 at 6:53 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

According to one source given above, 40% of assistant coaches in the NFL are black.  So 3% or even 9% is still disproportionate.

 

The skillsets are not necessarily the same but football-knowledgeable folk who become coaches are almost all former players at the college and pro level.   NFL players are predominantly black. I believe college players today are 50% black. 

 

So that's the relevant pool for comparing the number of coaches, not the general population.

The bolded part is an assertion without evidence, unless you can demonstrate former NFL players succeed at higher rates than people who did not play. 

Among the final 8 coaches in the NFL playoffs this year.  1) McVay - no nfl playing experience  2) Zac Taylor - No NFL games played. 3) Andy Reid - No NFL playing experience. 4) Kyle Shanahan - No NFL playing experience. 5) Matt Lafleur no NFL playing experience. 6)Sean McDermott - No NFL Experience. 7) Mike Vrabel, extensive NFL experience 8 ) Bruce Arians - No NFL playing experience.  for this small sample set, 7/8, 87.5% have no NFL playing Experience.  Ron Riveria, Brian Flores.

Based on the the strange theory that NFL teams want to win, there is not really much evidence that former players put teams in a better position to do that as head coaches. 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Chaos

[Magox]

Flores is coming off petty and bitter.    His lawyers should have really talked him out of that statement.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

30 minutes ago, Magox said:

Flores is coming off petty and bitter.    His lawyers should have really talked him out of that statement.  

It’s also hella insulting of his fellow coach Lovie Smith, implying there couldn’t possibly be reasons they might prefer Smith.

[aristocrat]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

It’s also hella insulting of his fellow coach Lovie Smith

This statement does not play well in the court of public opinion.  It’s supposed to be the black coaches against the Owners. You don’t tear down someone who has a stake in your lawsuit. Whoever did this is a ***** idiot. 

[RaoulDuke79]

Is Flores nuts? Can he not understand how pending litigation with the NFL may be somewhat of a red flag for GM's and owners when screening potential coaches?

[Mike in Horseheads]

I'm suing you, now about that head coaching job....   what a joke

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Now that all the HC spots are taken, I would take Flores and dump Frazier.  Flores is a better DC and would have a better chance of getting a HC job next off-season.  

[Buffalo Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Now that all the HC spots are taken, I would take Flores and dump Frazier.  Flores is a better DC and would have a better chance of getting a HC job next off-season.  

Love Frazier. I'd take Frazier all day. Frazier is a wonderful guy. Loyal, caring, patience, humble and lots more.

[Man with No Name]

I am guessing most of his problems are a direct result of his scummy lawyers. Nobody is ever going to want to hire this guy, and now we are going to have to listen to this every year until he gets tired and just disappears. 

1 minute ago, Buffalo Bills Fan said:

Love Frazier. I'd take Frazier all day. Frazier is a wonderful guy. Loyal, caring, patience, humble and lots more.

seriously. and flores has no idea how to stop a dynamic offense. anybody ever watch his defense work against Josh Allen? 

 

YIKES

[TheFunPolice]

Dolphins want us to believe that Flores had poor relationships and didn't work well with others? 

 

I can't see it.