Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[Mango]

4 minutes ago, harryS said:

 

First of all, I would hope that 100% of the sport uses two legs for walking.   Next, why are we assuming player ratios and coach ratios should be the same?  Different skillsets, no?

 

BIPOC is a more inclusionary acronym for minorities. But I think you already knew that before you belittled it. 

50% of NCAA is black (excluding mixed race and other minorities) and 65% are BIPOC. If participation isn’t part of the mainstay in becoming a HC at the NFL level, can you explain to me the experiences that would lend itself to rule out those candidates at such astonishingly high levels when compared to the participation rates. 
 

Where are white coaches gaining significantly more experience/skill sets compared to their minority counterparts that make them more qualified to be HC at the NFL or NCAA level? 
 

Why is 25% of the league having a much more meaningful experience, developing a skill set that 65% are not. And why at such a high rate? 25% of participants are making up 80%+ of the hires?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

I doubt he would agree to meet with Flores if he wasn't interested.

I think the idea is he agreed to a day on a yacht and the owner of the Dolphins just happened to be another guest and had brought his HC along and if they happened to talk a little shop about plans for the 2020 season, well who could blame them?

 

It's not as though Brady didn't know Flores, they worked in the same building from 2004-2018 and Flores in coaching from 2008-2018

[BuffaloBillyG]

6 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Well obviously he wasn't interested...he chose Tampa. No sane person would believe Brady would leave NE to lose out in Miami.

 

Maybe he just wanted lunch on a richer man's yacht.

No promise he would have lost in Miami.

 

If he signs there...does Gronk come back? Does he still gets Antonio Brown? Brady was reportedly heavily influencing Fournette to sign there. The defense wasn't terrible. They already had Parker and with Brady, Geiseki would have likely been a factor. Draft picks may have been spent different. 

 

It's a lot more to factor into the equation.

[SoTier]

7 hours ago, Jim Bob said:

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hZHZpc29yeW9waW5pb25zLnRoZWRpc3BhdGNoLmNvbS9mZWVkLw/episode/aHR0cHM6Ly9hZHZpc29yeW9waW5pb25zLnRoZWRpc3BhdGNoLmNvbS9wL25mbC1mYWNlcy1yYWNpYWwtZGlzY3JpbWluYXRpb24tbGF3c3VpdA

 

This was an interesting podcast that goes over legal cases and they took a look at the Flores lawsuit.

 

One thing that was crazy was how many NFL coaches and coordinators are related to current and former NFL coaches.

 

Back when McDermott and Beane were hired, the fact that they weren't related to any current or former NFL coaches was raised in at least a couple of articles.   The NFL is a nepotistic old boys club where "outsiders"  white or black are only allowed in when "better" insiders aren't available, so there's limited opportunity for individuals unrelated to other members of the old boys club.   Unfortunately, nepotism isn't illegal.  Discrimination based on race is.   If Flores is successful, then there may be more opportunities for Blacks to become HCs and execs.

 

 

[Doc]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Well obviously he wasn't interested...he chose Tampa. No sane person would believe Brady would leave NE to lose out in Miami.

 

Maybe he just wanted lunch on a richer man's yacht.

 

True, maybe he wanted billionaire avocado smoothies instead of millionaire ones.  Still sounds like interest.  And Flores refusing to meet with him killed any chance of them landing him. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

53 minutes ago, harryS said:

 

First of all, I would hope that 100% of the sport uses two legs for walking.   Next, why are we assuming player ratios and coach ratios should be the same?  Different skillsets, no?

 

According to one source given above, 40% of assistant coaches in the NFL are black.  So 3% or even 9% is still disproportionate.

 

The skillsets are not necessarily the same but football-knowledgeable folk who become coaches are almost all former players at the college and pro level.   NFL players are predominantly black. I believe college players today are 50% black. 

 

So that's the relevant pool for comparing the number of coaches, not the general population.

[SoTier]

7 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

Well, in today’s modern world, society is taught to find racism in everything- even where it might not exist...

 

Right-o.  70% of current NFL players are black, and the percentage of blacks in the NFL has been 50% or more for decades, yet only 3% (exactly 1)  of NFL HCs are black or mixed race. 

 

When it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it swims like a duck, it's likely a duck ... except in the alternative world inhabited by those who deny that ducks exist.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, SoTier said:

Back when McDermott and Beane were hired, the fact that they weren't related to any current or former NFL coaches was raised in at least a couple of articles.   The NFL is a nepotistic old boys club where "outsiders"  white or black are only allowed in when "better" insiders aren't available, so there's limited opportunity for individuals unrelated to other members of the old boys club.   Unfortunately, nepotism isn't illegal.  Discrimination based on race is.   If Flores is successful, then there may be more opportunities for Blacks to become HCs and execs.

 

I don't know about the "only allowed in" bit.  

 

I think more owners are concerned about having a coaching hire make them look bad, than are truly concerned about winning consistently. 

 

How do you assure a coaching hire won't make you look bad?

1) hire someone who has done it before with some success

2) hire someone related to someone who has done it before with success if they have been coaching and groomed for success

3) hire someone who is working under a HC who is currently successful (or was recently successful)

 

McDermott was hired the year after the Panthers/Rivera won the NFCCG and lost the Superbowl.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

NY times article on the lawsuit:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/01/sports/football/brian-flores-giants-discrimination-lawsuit.html?searchResultPosition=1

 

Includes a link to the full text of the lawsuit, for those who like their sources primary

 

Quote

In his suit, Flores stated that there were more than 40 other coaches who could join the class action, though he did not name any of them. Still, the case faces high legal hurdles, most prominently because Flores needs to prove that race was specifically a factor in his being turned down for jobs, even as he continues to interview for open coaching positions.

 

“I view this lawsuit as next to impossible to succeed and I’m extremely surprised he would put his career in jeopardy,” said Brad Sohn, a lawyer who has represented numerous N.F.L. players.

 

But they note:

Quote

The N.F.L. has acknowledged repeatedly that there are not enough coaches and team executives of color even as about 70 percent of players are Black.

 

 

[harryS]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

 

50% of NCAA is black (excluding mixed race and other minorities) and 65% are BIPOC. If participation isn’t part of the mainstay in becoming a HC at the NFL level, can you explain to me the experiences that would lend itself to rule out those candidates at such astonishingly high levels when compared to the participation rates. 
 

Where are white coaches gaining significantly more experience/skill sets compared to their minority counterparts that make them more qualified to be HC at the NFL or NCAA level? 
 

Why is 25% of the league having a much more meaningful experience, developing a skill set that 65% are not. And why at such a high rate? 25% of participants are making up 80%+ of the hires?

 

Well, you're assuming that everything else besides experience is equal, which I think is probably a bad assumption.  What if, between the two populations, one of them has much more interest and desire to become coaches, for example?  That would lead to them being "overrepresented" in coaching.  Or what if, between the two populations, one of them has more coaching talent?  There are probably several other possible explanations, too, if we brainstormed hard enough.

 

What's interesting to me is that I can't think of any organization where the demographics will be consistent across all levels of the organization.   If we're talking military, I would expect the infantry to be demographically different from the group of all lieutenant colonels in charge of battalions.  If we looked at, let's say, Walmart, I would expect the demographics of the loaders/unloaders to be different from the demographics of store managers, which in turn will be different from the demographics of VPs.

 

I mean, is there any particular reason the NFL should be the exception if no other industry (or perhaps a miniscule amount) has consistent demographics across all levels of the organization?

[Mango]

45 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

According to one source given above, 40% of assistant coaches in the NFL are black.  So 3% or even 9% is still disproportionate.

 

The skillsets are not necessarily the same but football-knowledgeable folk who become coaches are almost all former players at the college and pro level.   NFL players are predominantly black. I believe college players today are 50% black. 

 

So that's the relevant pool for comparing the number of coaches, not the general population.

Rowing runs into a very similar problem with women. The last 20 years of world championship and olympic rowing has been dominated by the US Womens 8+.Not one female was interviewed for the new High Performance Director position for the National Governing Body. The Junior National Team only had 2 female coaches out of 8. 
 

Yas Farooq won NCAA’s in 2019, and was the last female HC to do so since 2009, where she was the prior female HC to win a national championship. Before that it was 2003 and Liz O’Leary. 
 

Rowing is one of the cornerstone Title IX sports. It is on the next commemorative stamp for Christ’s sake. They have seen unprecedented international success at the worlds highest stage. 
 

Men’s collegiate rowing comparatively is trash. It might as well be The Buffalo Blizzards vs. Man United. Or the Redbull Junior racing team vs. Haas’ actual F1 team. There are like 6 well supported men’s teams and the rest is trash. 
 

To your points, these things happen at an institutional level. It isn’t OK to just shrug your shoulders and go “well maybe white people/men just have better experiences”.

[TwistofFate]

This is what a PC NFL looks like. 

 

I believe the overwhelming majority couldn't care less about race, they care about championships. The only colord they really care about are Silver Lombardi's and green cash flow. 

 

There's nothing racist about firing a guy who has a losing record after 3 years. For Pete's sake the hired him and kept him around for 3 years. 

 

Everyone has known the Rooney Rule is just a technicality that they are forced to check if their front runner isn't of color.  The NFL created these sham interviews on their own. 

 

I don't want to hear Flores talking about integrity, if had a single ounce, he would have resigned the second he was asked to tank for money, which leads us to something most people already know....***** teams tank on purpose for better draft picks. 

 

The only thing shocking to me is another person playing the race card after the fact. 

 

His career is most likely over and it has everything to do with the fact he is now a liability, not an asset. 

[JaCrispy]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

Right-o.  70% of current NFL players are black, and the percentage of blacks in the NFL has been 50% or more for decades, yet only 3% (exactly 1)  of NFL HCs are black or mixed race. 

 

When it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it swims like a duck, it's likely a duck ... except in the alternative world inhabited by those who deny that ducks exist.

‘Ducks’ certainly exist, but you have to look at each situation on a case by case basis...it’s not a ‘one size fits all’...

 

A couple years ago there was a higher percentage of black HCs than percentage of black males in the population, at large...but, because of turnover, there is always gonna be movement up and down- ebbs and flows...This happens to be a down year...

 

But I’ll tell ya one thing- black people suing teams for racism is not going to help the cause imo...In fact, I wouldn’t be surprised if it scares owners away from hiring them, even more...who wants to take that chance? Certainly not me, and I’m black...

 

I’ve said before, but I’ll say it again- trying to socially engineer society through identity politics is only going to hurt minorities in the end (see Colin Kaepernick...he became radioactive).

 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by JaCrispy

[Buffalo Junction]

7 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

Non-hispanic whites are 62.8% of the general population, but 90% of the head coaching population. That obvious discrepancy is before factoring in the fact that NFL coaches overwhelmingly begin as players and we all know the demographics of players. I mean this isn't even a point worth debating. It's a plain fact that minority coaches are underrepresented.

 

 

It is not the case that the same decision makers pick players and coaches. Nor is it the same process. There is nothing similar about athletic scouting and management hiring. There is no NFL combine for coaches. There is no set list of coaching traits that NFL owners are basing their decisions on. Coaching hires are as much about how comfortable the owner of the team is with the interviewee as they are about any kind of objective standard. It is not at all a one-to-one comparison and I'm kind of sick of people using player demographics as some kind of fall back excuse. If anything those demographics are a point in favor of my argument, since overrepresentation of minorities in players should theoretically lead to the same ratio in coaches. The fact that there is instead a huge overrepresentation on the other end of the spectrum is disturbing.

 

What you’re neglecting is the college to NFL pipeline for assistant coaches. As bad as the NFL is on this issue the college ranks are equally horrendous (12 out of 130 programs IIRC). This is particularly important as a substantial portion of offensive coordinators and QB coaches get their start in the college ranks.
 

By contrast there seems to be a disparity where minority coaches who are former nfl players have a higher percentage of representation on the defensive side of the ball. Now, it would be reasonable to assume that this is due to a historical lack of black QBs for the majority of the NFLs history…. But it’s also reasonable to speculate on those QBs seeing a lack of coaching opportunities in the college ranks, especially if they didn’t play ball in a power five conference a la Sean McVay, Matt LaFleur, etc. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

 

2 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

This is what a PC NFL looks like. 

 

(.....)

 

Everyone has known the Rooney Rule is just a technicality that they are forced to check if their front runner isn't of color.  The NFL created these sham interviews on their own.

 

 "the NFL" that created these rules, is the NFL ownership and executives.  The Rooney rule came into being because a majority of the NFL owners said "yeah, we got a problem with under-representation of minorities at the top levels" and tried to come up with a strategy to address it.  Whether or not it's an effective strategy is a different issue.  The point is it wasn't some nebulous group called "the NFL" deciding there was a problem, it was the NFL owners themselves concluding this based upon data presented to them, and trying to address it.  If some owners choose to treat it as a technicality, that's really "on them".

 

At least publicly, prominent owners like Jerry Jones are not denying there's a problem:

Quote

"I can see it’s an area, one of many, that we can do better. The area has some good attention. This is obvious if you look through that the league and coaches are trying to improve there," Jones told reporters, via USA Today.

 

He's not saying "Wellllll there are 13% blacks in the population and 3-5% at the head coaching level so Where's the Beef?"; he acknowledges there's a problem.

 

Example of hard data about racial bias in NFL coaching.  George Washington University, Emory and Iowa state professors tracked 1,200 NFL coaches between 1985 and 2013 (Rooney rule started 2003).  They found that white position coaches were 114x more likely to be promoted to coordinator positions than their black counterparts (these promotions did not come under the Rooney rule until this season).

 

They then used the data set to control for various factors like age, experience, college experience, and found that there was still a significant bias:

Quote

Armed with the breadth of data usually only found in industries where a high percentage of employees spend their entire careers, the researchers were able to account for reasons typically used to justify a race gap in the workplace.

“We accounted for experience in the NFL, experience in college, age and performance of the team,” said Dr. Wade, the Avram S. Tucker Endowed Professor in Strategy and Leadership at the School of Business. “We also had other models of offensive and defensive performance. We had a lot of controls.”

That was a critical part of their analysis, Dr. Wade said, allowing the researchers to cycle through all types of factors. They even found a hierarchy among position coaches—quarterbacks coach is a more favorable position for promotion than running backs coach, for example.

Still, controlling for this factor—as with all the others—revealed the same promotion bias.

“Our analysis allows us to rule out that the disparity is simply attributable to your first position or current position,” Dr. Rider said. “Even when we take two guys who are in the same position and performing equally well, we see this racial advantage.”

 

They concluded that the real disparity in NFL promotions lies lower down from the coordinator level:

Quote

“In terms of understanding racial disparity, a lot of people focus at the top—the movement from the second position to the top position,” Dr. Rider said. “What our study shows is that the real racial disadvantage here is at the lower level positions.”

 

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

2 hours ago, harryS said:

 

Very good post, and I hit the like button on it.  Flores, however, is black and self-identifies as black.  Now he may also be "latino" depending on how you want to define that (if being from Honduras is enough without any regard to genetic makeup, then he's "latino") that but his parents are Afro-Honduran.  Basically, back in the day, conquistadors would bring African slaves with them while doing their colonizing, and that's how Africans ends up in Honduras.

 

Hey Harry, thanks for reading the post. This is good info. NYT blocks me from reading the article, but I did manage to see the tagline was from February, 2022. Please verify.

 

80% of Hondurans self ascribe themselves as mesitzo or Latino and only 3% claim being black or Afro-Honduran. It is odd how Flores, the son of Honduran immigrants, seemed to enjoy the praise of being the 3rd Latino HC in NFL history in 2019 in Latino heavy Miami, but now claims to be black in woke America in 2022 when he perceives a firing/hiring injustice.

 

How did that happen?

[Kaenon]

There were what, 9-10 head coaching vacancies? If you know who you want, you got to move fast and make decisions and not lose them. 

Then there's the Rooney Rule.

I'm not sure what clubs should do. Risk losing out on who you ultimately want, but also you must check the box. 

Granted, of course there are amazing coaches of many types of backgrounds. 

The Rooney Rule is great because there are people out there who still have prejudice in them, even in 2022, and it gives non-white coaches a chance to prove themselves worthy of the spot in an era still dominated by white coaches.

It'll change over time and be more diverse - and that's good.

 

Idk... It's tough.

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

80% of Hondurans self ascribe themselves as mesitzo or Latino and only 3% claim being black or Afro-Honduran. It is odd how Flores, the son of Honduran immigrants, seemed to enjoy the praise of being the 3rd Latino HC in NFL history in 2019 in Latino heavy Miami, but now claims to be black in woke America in 2022 when he perceives a firing/hiring injustice.

 

The article quotes from a speech Flores made in 2019.  He self identified as Black at that point.

Quote

During his first preseason as the Miami Dolphins’ head coach, in 2019, Brian Flores spoke with emotion about the social injustice he faced as a young Black and Latino man in the distressed Brownsville section of Brooklyn.

Referring to athletes like Kenny Stills, then a Dolphins receiver, and the ostracized quarterback Colin Kaepernick, Flores said he applauded those who protested against racial inequality and police brutality.

“They’re bringing attention to my story,” Flores, the son of Honduran immigrants, told reporters. “I’m the son of immigrants. I’m Black. I grew up poor. I grew up in New York during the stop-and-frisk era. I’ve been stopped because I fit a description before. So everything these guys protest, I’ve lived it, I’ve experienced it.”

 

Latino is typically used as a descriptor of geographical origin, not a race****.  So one can be black and Latino, or white and Latino, or mestizo and Latino.

Afro-Hondurans are Latino because they hail from Latin America.  So are Honduran mestizos.  Its not an 'either or" thing where he didn't say he was Black in 2019, and he now had to stop acknowledging his parents Latino heritage in order to be Black. 

 

That's cray-cray

 

****"The terms "Hispanic" and "Latino" refer to ethnicity, culture, and identity. They are groups based on shared culture rather than skin color, race, or other physical features. However, the groups are also broader than ethnicity, which can make the terms confusing."

[Coach Tuesday]

This thread, and the lawsuit generally, are perhaps saying that the real problem is who gets to decide there’s a real problem.

[reddogblitz]

3 hours ago, Mango said:

 

It is not a great post because it is being comparable to the general population. But 65% of the sport are BIPOC. The threshold level is far too low. Even 7 HC begs a lot of questions.

 

I understand.

 

But my post was dealing with if NFL HC hires are "systemically racist" based on the definition by the guy that invented CRT which is included in my post.

 

That's how we judge things now.  Death penalty is racist cuz 41% are Black while only 14% of the population.  There are only 4 Black CEOs in Fortune 500 while Blacks are 14% of the population.

 

Etc.

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by reddogblitz