Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[QLBillsFan]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think you've cited this statistic several times.  Can you point us to a source for it?  Because I'm not sure it's correct.  Thanks!

 

One contention is that the reason there are no longer 8 black coaches is that black coaches are given a "shorter leash" and less time than white coaches with comparable records (Joseph vs Florio) and that "retread" white coaches are rehired and given 2nd chances more often than former black head coaches.  So the fact that there were, and now there aren't, may be part of a picture of disparate treatment.

 

 

I agree with all of this.   In particular, as someone else pointed out, the trend seems to be to hire offensive coordinators as head coaches, and there are not many black offensive coordinators and fewer who call plays.  And as you point out, the one who does (Leftwich) seems to feel confident enough that he can sit back and dictate his terms.

 

Culley absolutely got hosed IMO.  He did a very good job developing Davis Mills and leading a terrible team to 4 wins.  Firing him then considering McCown is a joke.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/analysis/preston/bs-sp-nfl-black-coaches-preston-20220119-oo4eejl7ovhffhpnsqfc2554nm-story.html
 

Sorry for being redundant on this. I think I provided link way back. The great point you make about short window is spot on. Culley, Wilkes, Joseph, all only one or two years. Might be missing others. Can’t get my head around Culley firing as it’s ridiculous. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

14 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/analysis/preston/bs-sp-nfl-black-coaches-preston-20220119-oo4eejl7ovhffhpnsqfc2554nm-story.html
 

Sorry for being redundant on this. I think I provided link way back. The great point you make about short window is spot on. Culley, Wilkes, Joseph, all only one or two years. Might be missing others. Can’t get my head around Culley firing as it’s ridiculous. 

 

Culley was in way over his head, never should have been hired.   If he was the Bills HC you would be livid.   He made multiple guffaws that cost the Texans games including against the Patriots, 

 

HOUSTON -- In hindsight, Houston Texans coach David Culley acknowledged Monday that he wishes he had declined a penalty during a narrow loss to the New England Patriots that would have involved accepting a touchdown along with gaining crucial additional time for the offense to make a late comeback attempt.

By declining the illegal shift penalty during Patriots running back Rhamondre Stevenson’s touchdown run in hopes of defensive coordinator Lovie Smith's defense forcing a turnover on ensuing downs, Culley set the stage for the Patriots burning through most of the remaining time

 

And the Browns,

 

Texans coach David Culley made one of the strangest coaching decisions in the NFL in Week 2. He declined a defensive penalty that would have kept a Texans drive alive and proceeded to punt the ball.

 

To recap, the Texans had the ball on their own 38-yard line early in the second quarter and were facing a third-and-15. Browns defensive end Takkarist McKinley jumped offside on the third-down play, on which Taylor connected with Brandin Cooks for a 13-yard gain.

From there, the Texans had a couple of decisions. The team could accept the penalty and try to convert a third-and-10, or Culley could decline it and try to convert a fourth-and-2 from Cleveland's 49-yard line.

Instead, Houston chose to unexpectedly punt. Culley admitted on Monday that his decision to do so was a mistake.

 

There were more, he should have been fired.

 

[QLBillsFan]

21 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

 

Culley was in way over his head, never should have been hired.   If he was the Bills HC you would be livid.   He made multiple guffaws that cost the Texans games including against the Patriots, 

 

HOUSTON -- In hindsight, Houston Texans coach David Culley acknowledged Monday that he wishes he had declined a penalty during a narrow loss to the New England Patriots that would have involved accepting a touchdown along with gaining crucial additional time for the offense to make a late comeback attempt.

By declining the illegal shift penalty during Patriots running back Rhamondre Stevenson’s touchdown run in hopes of defensive coordinator Lovie Smith's defense forcing a turnover on ensuing downs, Culley set the stage for the Patriots burning through most of the remaining time

 

And the Browns,

 

Texans coach David Culley made one of the strangest coaching decisions in the NFL in Week 2. He declined a defensive penalty that would have kept a Texans drive alive and proceeded to punt the ball.

 

To recap, the Texans had the ball on their own 38-yard line early in the second quarter and were facing a third-and-15. Browns defensive end Takkarist McKinley jumped offside on the third-down play, on which Taylor connected with Brandin Cooks for a 13-yard gain.

From there, the Texans had a couple of decisions. The team could accept the penalty and try to convert a third-and-10, or Culley could decline it and try to convert a fourth-and-2 from Cleveland's 49-yard line.

Instead, Houston chose to unexpectedly punt. Culley admitted on Monday that his decision to do so was a mistake.

 

There were more, he should have been fired.

 

All that is true. He was given a dreadful roster, a superstar qb who could not play, and a less than respected owner. They competed in most games and most importantly were developing Davis Mills big time. 
The general theme is unless you operate like Urban you almost always get a 2nd year minimum and imho I think he deserved that. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

On 2/1/2022 at 4:55 PM, Warcodered said:

Wasn't it Watson?

 

 

[Sharky7337]

59 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/analysis/preston/bs-sp-nfl-black-coaches-preston-20220119-oo4eejl7ovhffhpnsqfc2554nm-story.html
 

Sorry for being redundant on this. I think I provided link way back. The great point you make about short window is spot on. Culley, Wilkes, Joseph, all only one or two years. Might be missing others. Can’t get my head around Culley firing as it’s ridiculous. 

Marvin Lewis is laughing all the way to the bank

[Doc]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

 

I still can't believe Brady wanted to play for the Dols.  They weren't a QB away from winning a SB.

[reddogblitz]

10 hours ago, HamSandwhich said:

So of the relevant population - those who know the most about playing and coaching American football - more than half of the players are black, more than 1/3 of the overall coaching population is black, but 3-9% of the top level HC are black.

 

I don't think you have to be a stats genius to realize that something non-random, something systematic, is probably at work there.

 

I have to question if the NFL HC hiring practice is systemic racism and here's why:

 

The founder of Critical Race Theory Joe Feagin says:

 

Quote

Feagin defines systemic racism in the introduction to "Racist America: Roots, Current Realities, and Future Reparations":

"Systemic racism includes the complex array of antiblack practices, the unjustly gained political-economic power of whites, the continuing economic and other resource inequalities along racial lines, and the white racist ideologies and attitudes created to maintain and rationalize white privilege and power. Systemic here means that the core racist realities are manifested in each of society’s major parts [...] each major part of U.S. society—the economy, politics, education, religion, the family—reflects the fundamental reality of systemic racism."

 

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

 

So when I hear that there is systemic racism in NFL HC hiring the first question is OK, how many do we have?  1 or 3 is on obviously low compared to racial lines (14% Black).  But I seem to remember recently we had more.  So I looked back the last 15 years starting in. 2006.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2006/coaches.htm

 

2006 - 7 (Super Bowl between teams led by Black HC.)

2007 - 6

2008 - 6

2009 - 5

2010 - 7

2011 - 8

2012 - 5

2013 - 3

2014 - 4

2015 - 5

2016 - 5

2017 - 7

2018 - 7

2019 - 3

2020 - 3

2021 - 3

 

Note: I did not count Ron Rivera or Robert Saleh.  I also didn't count interim coaches even though there have been several a la  Perry Fewell.

 

The avg was 5.25.  >14%

 

5 years were <14% including the last 3

 

The real question for me is what changed in the last 3 years?  Why was the NFL HC hiring within racial lines and suddenly now is not?

 

I'm sure there is some racism going on cuz its everywhere.  But as far as being systemically racist per definition, it doesn't seem to pencil out.

 

 

[harryS]

1 hour ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

Brian Flores is first generation Honduran American. His parents, Raul and Maria, immigrated to the USA from Honduras in the 1970's. He is latino.

 

Very good post, and I hit the like button on it.  Flores, however, is black and self-identifies as black.  Now he may also be "latino" depending on how you want to define that (if being from Honduras is enough without any regard to genetic makeup, then he's "latino") that but his parents are Afro-Honduran.  Basically, back in the day, conquistadors would bring African slaves with them while doing their colonizing, and that's how Africans ends up in Honduras.

[BuffaloBillyG]

8 minutes ago, harryS said:

 

Very good post, and I hit the like button on it.  Flores, however, is black and self-identifies as black.  Now he may also be "latino" depending on how you want to define that (if being from Honduras is enough without any regard to genetic makeup, then he's "latino") that but his parents are Afro-Honduran.  Basically, back in the day, conquistadors would bring African slaves with them while doing their colonizing, and that's how Africans ends up in Honduras.

What's fun is that in the Wiki page you linked to for your proof...Brian Flores is listed as a notable Afro-Honduran. He's listed under Soccer with American football coach as his description.

[HamSandwhich]

20 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I have to question if the NFL HC hiring practice is systemic racism and here's why:

 

The founder of Critical Race Theory Joe Feagin says:

 

 

https://www.thoughtco.com/systemic-racism-3026565

 

So when I hear that there is systemic racism in NFL HC hiring the first question is OK, how many do we have?  1 or 3 is on obviously low compared to racial lines (14% Black).  But I seem to remember recently we had more.  So I looked back the last 15 years starting in. 2006.

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2006/coaches.htm

 

2006 - 7 (Super Bowl between teams led by Black HC.)

2007 - 6

2008 - 6

2009 - 5

2010 - 7

2011 - 8

2012 - 5

2013 - 3

2014 - 4

2015 - 5

2016 - 5

2017 - 7

2018 - 7

2019 - 3

2020 - 3

2021 - 3

 

Note: I did not count Ron Rivera or Robert Saleh.  I also didn't count interim coaches even though there have been several a la  Perry Fewell.

 

The avg was 5.25.  >14%

 

5 years were <14% including the last 3

 

The real question for me is what changed in the last 3 years?  Why was the NFL HC hiring within racial lines and suddenly now is not?

 

I'm sure there is some racism going on cuz its everywhere.  But as far as being systemically racist per definition, it doesn't seem to pencil out.

 

 

You lost me at “because it’s everywhere”

[Mango]

The league is at a real risk of having 8 head coaching vacancies, 2 BIPOC fired, and no BIPOC replaced. I don't mean that as a need to fulfill a quota. The league just cannot explain that away. Including players who identify as multi-racial (black and...) ~65% of the NFL is BIPOC and has been that way for over a generation. Sure it is statistically possible to flip a count 32 times and have it land on heads on 3 times. Also possible to roll a dice 32 times and never role 1,2,3, or 4. But it is HIGHLY improbable. 

The tinfoil hat voice in the back of my head thinks maybe the league agrees to let Deshaun play to make that job more enticing for a candidate. As a business, the issue with the Browns and Dolphins, Flores law suit, no black head coaches is far too much to risk with their antitrust exemption on the line. 

 

I haven't caught up on what I missed in this thread, but the last few pages are now sort of questioning the blackness or lack there of with Flores by mentioning whether or not he is latino. Something some people may want to pay attention to. It is subtle but also really important. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Mango

[RaoulDuke79]

23 hours ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

This is going to get better.

 

Now Belichek is entering the cross hairs.

 

"the more Flores speaks, the more he appears to point to Belichick as being a significant witness — and possibly even a participant — in some of the systemic problems plaguing the NFL’s hiring process. That’s what Flores suggested this week on the National Public Radio podcast “The Limits.” That notion went a little further beyond Belichick’s texts being included as an exhibit in the lawsuit".

I for one am flabbergasted that the Patriots organization would be affiliated with football in any manner other than its most purest form of integrity.....The Patriot way has always been the benchmark,  No?

Edited February 5, 2022 by RaoulDuke79

[harryS]

46 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

 

2006 - 7 (Super Bowl between teams led by Black HC.)

2007 - 6

2008 - 6

2009 - 5

2010 - 7

2011 - 8

2012 - 5

2013 - 3

2014 - 4

2015 - 5

2016 - 5

2017 - 7

2018 - 7

2019 - 3

2020 - 3

2021 - 3

 

Note: I did not count Ron Rivera or Robert Saleh.  I also didn't count interim coaches even though there have been several a la  Perry Fewell.

 

The avg was 5.25.  >14%

 

5 years were <14% including the last 3

 

The real question for me is what changed in the last 3 years?  Why was the NFL HC hiring within racial lines and suddenly now is not?

 

 

 

Really good post.  To answer your question, when you're dealing with numbers and sample size that low, 3 years is just a blip and not necessarily a meaningful trend yet.  It'd be akin to asking why this baseball player who usually bats .300 is only batting .200 over the past two weeks.

[Mango]

1 minute ago, harryS said:

 

Really good post.  To answer your question, when you're dealing with numbers and sample size that low, 3 years is just a blip and not necessarily a meaningful trend yet.  It'd be akin to asking why this baseball player who usually bats .300 is only batting .200 over the past two weeks.

 

It is not a great post because it is being comparable to the general population. But 65% of the sport are BIPOC. The threshold level is far too low. Even 7 HC begs a lot of questions.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

I still can't believe Brady wanted to play for the Dols.  They weren't a QB away from winning a SB.

 

he did?

[harryS]

6 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

It is not a great post because it is being comparable to the general population. But 65% of the sport are BIPOC. The threshold level is far too low. Even 7 HC begs a lot of questions.

 

First of all, I would hope that 100% of the sport uses two legs for walking.   Next, why are we assuming player ratios and coach ratios should be the same?  Different skillsets, no?

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

he did?

 

I doubt he would agree to meet with Flores if he wasn't interested.

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I doubt he would agree to meet with Flores if he wasn't interested.

 

 

Well obviously he wasn't interested...he chose Tampa. No sane person would believe Brady would leave NE to lose out in Miami.

 

Maybe he just wanted lunch on a richer man's yacht.

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Well obviously he wasn't interested...he chose Tampa. No sane person would believe Brady would leave NE to lose out in Miami.

 

Maybe he just wanted lunch on a richer man's yacht.

I mean at the time Dolphins had a lot of picks and Brady seemingly attracted a bunch of FA to Tampa. Also keep in mind there was a kind of getting one over on Belichick feel to the whole thing starting out, going to a division rival would have been in line with that.

[Blank Stare]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I doubt he would agree to meet with Flores if he wasn't interested.

Aside from the weather, if he was going to keep playing, family, more notably Gisele, probably had something to do with that interest. Miami is quite common for travel options to/from South America. I’d imagine much easier for her Brazilian relatives coming in for a visit (or vice versa).