Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[2003Contenders]

Does anyone know anything about Flores' legal team? The fact that they are letting him speak while a lawsuit is going on and the fact that the lawsuit itself is all over the map -- alleging a variety of things against multiple teams that have nothing to do with racism -- makes me wonder if this whole thing is more about forwarding a political agenda rather than truly trying to win a lawsuit.

[Dr. Who]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He only destroyed his career if he's lying.

 

The sham interviews have been talked about for years. It's the other stuff that's really bad.

He better have strong evidence, because if its equivocal or purely subject to interpretation, NFL lawyers are going to eat him alive.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 hours ago, papazoid said:

wait....isn't calling past employers to check on references normal ?

 

why would it be unusual for someone in the giants organization to call BB and/or kraft

 

Or for that matter, McDermott or Pegula

[Bangarang]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

Where specifically?  But even if they did, it doesn't mean much for them.  It's not them breaking the rule.

 

 

Depends on the credibility of his witnesses.  

it’s still all hearsay apparently. His case didn’t take long to completely unravel.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

41 minutes ago, 2003Contenders said:

Does anyone know anything about Flores' legal team? The fact that they are letting him speak while a lawsuit is going on and the fact that the lawsuit itself is all over the map -- alleging a variety of things against multiple teams that have nothing to do with racism -- makes me wonder if this whole thing is more about forwarding a political agenda rather than truly trying to win a lawsuit.

 

They're a legit "heavy hitter" law firm, and Flores approached them.  They're apparently typically in it for the $$

 

But several upthread who sound knowledgeable have questioned whether they have the clients interest at heart - in general, and in the way this case was framed.

 

Typically when you have a lawyer and his client doing the talk-show rounds, it's because they don't necessarily want to try the case, they want the "court of public opinion" to force a settlement.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Bangarang said:

it’s still all hearsay apparently. His case didn’t take long to completely unravel.

 

What I see is people jumping to conclusions on both sides of the issue. 

 

Pat McAfee (surprise!) did a show which basically took everything the lawsuit alleges as fact.

 

Others, like you, are assuming it "completely unravelled" there's nothing there.

 

I believe that the lawyers wouldn't have filed the case if there weren't more substance to it than has been revealed so far, so I think "wait and see what the evidence actually is before forming a conclusion" is the right call.  Belichick's texts alone are hearsay, but who he spoke to on the Giants and Bills, and what he heard, still matter. 

 

Overall, I stand by what I said upthread: it reads to me like the "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take this any more" lawsuit, not something that is carefully researched and constructed to hold up well in court.

[Dr. Who]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

They're a legit "heavy hitter" law firm, and Flores approached them.  They're apparently typically in it for the $$

 

But several upthread who sound knowledgeable have questioned whether they have the clients interest at heart - in general, and in the way this case was framed.

 

Typically when you have a lawyer and his client doing the talk-show rounds, it's because they don't necessarily want to try the case, they want the "court of public opinion" to force a settlement.

Can the NFL really afford to cave at all when the charges so materially go to the integrity of the league? I think they are going to play hard ball.

[HappyDays]

16 hours ago, Chaos said:

The NFL is driven 100% by merit/winning.  The reason the league is 450% overrepresented by minorities in the players ranks is because they give teams the best chance to win.

 

Then what is the reason for white people being overrepresented in coaching hires? That's the question. I don't think you or anyone else in this thread believes that white people are overrepresented in the coaching ranks because they inherently have more merit as coaches. So there must be some other reason. White players are not given less of a chance than black players, we all know that; but on a statistical basis black coaches appear to be given less of a chance than white coaches.

[Lfod]

I googled how many minority coaches won a Superbowl out of curiosity. 

[Jim Bob]

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hZHZpc29yeW9waW5pb25zLnRoZWRpc3BhdGNoLmNvbS9mZWVkLw/episode/aHR0cHM6Ly9hZHZpc29yeW9waW5pb25zLnRoZWRpc3BhdGNoLmNvbS9wL25mbC1mYWNlcy1yYWNpYWwtZGlzY3JpbWluYXRpb24tbGF3c3VpdA

 

This was an interesting podcast that goes over legal cases and they took a look at the Flores lawsuit.

 

One thing that was crazy was how many NFL coaches and coordinators are related to current and former NFL coaches.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Can the NFL really afford to cave at all when the charges so materially go to the integrity of the league? I think they are going to play hard ball.

 

I'm not sure.

 

I think lawsuits can be broken into chunks and different parts addressed.

 

IMHO the serious thing for the league is Flores claim that Ross offered him money to lose games and then Jackson saying similar of the Browns.  The league needs to dig into that on its own, fast, and put it to rest as quickly as possible.  Maybe take action against Ross like forcing him to sell the team if there's any corroboration.

 

I don't know what Flores wants as far as the other claims.  It would be nice if there were a constructive plan of how to improve things, but like I said, this reads to me like "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more" lawsuit so I doubt there are well-thought constructive ideas to effect change attached to it.  But two prominent NFL owners have come out saying "we have to do better, we can do better". 

 

If the NFL comes out with its own plan for improvement (and gains some support for it), it can pretty much do an end-around without "caving" or acknowledging that Flores specific allegations are true.

 

I'm not a lawyer and these are just my thoughts.

 

 

 

[benderbender]

Why is there no regard for other minorities? Women? Age, sexuality, disability, and veterans? Shouldn’t there be a quota for them as well? 

[TheFunPolice]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure.

 

I think lawsuits can be broken into chunks and different parts addressed.

 

IMHO the serious thing for the league is Flores claim that Ross offered him money to lose games and then Jackson saying similar of the Browns.  The league needs to dig into that on its own, fast, and put it to rest as quickly as possible.  Maybe take action against Ross like forcing him to sell the team if there's any corroboration.

 

I don't know what Flores wants as far as the other claims.  It would be nice if there were a constructive plan of how to improve things, but like I said, this reads to me like "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more" lawsuit so I doubt there are well-thought constructive ideas to effect change attached to it.  But two prominent NFL owners have come out saying "we have to do better, we can do better".  But if the NFL comes out with its own plan for improvement (and gains some support for it), it can pretty much do an end-around without "caving" or acknowledging that Flores specific allegations are true.

 

I'm not a lawyer and these are just my thoughts.

 

 

 

 

Jackson already walked back his claim.

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure.

 

I think lawsuits can be broken into chunks and different parts addressed.

 

IMHO the serious thing for the league is Flores claim that Ross offered him money to lose games and then Jackson saying similar of the Browns.  The league needs to dig into that on its own, fast, and put it to rest as quickly as possible.  Maybe take action against Ross like forcing him to sell the team if there's any corroboration.

 

I don't know what Flores wants as far as the other claims.  It would be nice if there were a constructive plan of how to improve things, but like I said, this reads to me like "I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it any more" lawsuit so I doubt there are well-thought constructive ideas to effect change attached to it.  But two prominent NFL owners have come out saying "we have to do better, we can do better".  But if the NFL comes out with its own plan for improvement (and gains some support for it), it can pretty much do an end-around without "caving" or acknowledging that Flores specific allegations are true.

 

I'm not a lawyer and these are just my thoughts.

 

 

 

I basically agree. The hiring inequity can be separated out from the paying to lose which cannot be tolerated without putting the whole league in question. The former is complicated and so ideologically charged it becomes polemical so there is more heat than light. I sure don't know how to resolve it, but it seems to me rather than focus on head coaches, there needs to be much more attention to placing minorities at the Coordinator level which is the best logical path to eventually becoming a head coach. Personally, I subscribe to MLK's dictum that one ought to be judged by the content of one's character and not by factors entirely outside anyone's control such as race or gender, but that remains largely aspirational and obviously other factors do become problematic in the real world.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Jim Bob said:

https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9hZHZpc29yeW9waW5pb25zLnRoZWRpc3BhdGNoLmNvbS9mZWVkLw/episode/aHR0cHM6Ly9hZHZpc29yeW9waW5pb25zLnRoZWRpc3BhdGNoLmNvbS9wL25mbC1mYWNlcy1yYWNpYWwtZGlzY3JpbWluYXRpb24tbGF3c3VpdA

 

This was an interesting podcast that goes over legal cases and they took a look at the Flores lawsuit.

 

One thing that was crazy was how many NFL coaches and coordinators are related to current and former NFL coaches.

 

Right.  And then you get to things like the rumor the Texans will hire Josh McCown, a former QB with like NO coaching experience at any level: Really?  You can't find a better choice with more experience at ANY level?  He would be like the poster-boy opposed to the concept that owners want to win at all costs and hire the best coaching talent they can get.

 

Or the hiring of re-tread coaches like Doug Pederson - and he's far from the most egregious example, as he did win a Superbowl with Nick Foles and got a single amazing year out of Carson Wentz.  After which his OC was hired by the Colts as HC, his QB coach was hired by the Vikings, the team exited the playoffs early, and Wentz fell apart and now seems irreparably broken, which casts some doubt (in my mind anyway) as to who was most responsible for that, but I digress

 

The point is, by the time NFL teams hire relatives of former coaches, retread coaches, offensive coordinators of current playoff teams, and the occasional Whisky Tango Foxtrot? hire like McCown 1) it's pretty hard to argue that some kind of process based on coaching experience and results is going down 2) there aren't a lot of openings left to give promising, well-qualified coordinators a shot.

 

 

[Jim Bob]

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/04/arbitration-clause-could-quickly-derail-the-brian-flores-lawsuit/

 

This would be an interesting plot twist.

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Right.  And then you get to things like the rumor the Texans will hire Josh McCown, a former QB with like NO coaching experience at any level: Really?  You can't find a better choice with more experience at ANY level?  He would be like the poster-boy opposed to the concept that owners want to win at all costs and hire the best coaching talent they can get.

 

Or the hiring of re-tread coaches like Doug Pederson - and he's far from the most egregious example, as he did win a Superbowl with Nick Foles and got a single amazing year out of Carson Wentz.  After which his OC was hired by the Colts as HC, his QB coach was hired by the Vikings, the team exited the playoffs early, and Wentz fell apart and now seems irreparably broken, which casts some doubt (in my mind anyway) as to who was most responsible for that, but I digress

 

The point is, by the time NFL teams hire relatives of former coaches, retread coaches, offensive coordinators of current playoff teams, and the occasional Whisky Tango Foxtrot? hire like McCown 1) it's pretty hard to argue that some kind of process based on coaching experience and results is going down 2) there aren't a lot of openings left to give promising, well-qualified coordinators a shot.

 

 

 

One thing they did say with regards to the Giants job was that the Giants defense that they didn't hire Flores because of Schoen's prior working relationship with Daboll and not because of Flores being a minority would be a strong argument.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

I basically agree. The hiring inequity can be separated out from the paying to lose which cannot be tolerated without putting the whole league in question. The former is complicated and so ideologically charged it becomes polemical so there is more heat than light. I sure don't know how to resolve it, but it seems to me rather than focus on head coaches, there needs to be much more attention to placing minorities at the Coordinator level which is the best logical path to eventually becoming a head coach. Personally, I subscribe to MLK's dictum that one ought to be judged by the content of one's character and not by factors entirely outside anyone's control such as race or gender, but that remains largely aspirational and obviously other factors do become problematic in the real world.

 

Not just coordinators, but starting right at the lower-level assistants, and providing mentoring to prepare them for a step (mentoring for all).  As I understand it, mentoring for the next level is kind of hit and miss and depends on whether an individual guy finds people to take him under their wing.  The success that relatives of former coaches have is likely due (in part) to having built-in mentoring advising them what skills they need to build or improve and how to position themselves for the next step. (provide more consistent mentoring for all the assistants of any race or background, of course).

 

 

[muppy]

33 minutes ago, Dr. Who said:

Can the NFL really afford to cave at all when the charges so materially go to the integrity of the league? I think they are going to play hard ball.

BINGO imo this is a fight where the stakes and ramifications are sooo wide and potentially costly The NFL will do everything not to lose this. Dirty pool oh yessss both sides this is a War brewing here folks.  And the owner should lose his franchise if it is Proven he did what is alleged. That would be at least 1 likely ramification much less the potential for other lawsuits Lord have Mercy Doc.

 

m

[HappyDays]

14 minutes ago, benderbender said:

Why is there no regard for other minorities? Women? Age, sexuality, disability, and veterans? Shouldn’t there be a quota for them as well? 

 

This is a bad-faith argument. Instead of addressing a legitimate concern, you try to paint the concerned parties as not being concerned enough. Why do you think minorities have a more difficult time getting hired as head coaches? No one in this thread seems to disagree with that plain statistical fact. A lot of people are apparently uncomfortable asking why that fact is.

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Not just coordinators, but starting right at the lower-level assistants, and providing mentoring to prepare them for a step (mentoring for all).  As I understand it, mentoring for the next level is kind of hit and miss and depends on whether an individual guy finds people to take him under their wing.  The success that relatives of former coaches have is likely due (in part) to having built-in mentoring advising them what skills they need to build or improve and how to position themselves for the next step. (you provide more consistent mentoring for all the assistants of course).

 

 

The old guild system of the middle ages was designed to provide just this sort of progression from novice to master craftsman. The world of post-industrial individualism greatly increased choice and the geographical scope for talent, but it really vitiated all those soft forms of social integration that allowed persons to mature into excellence and prosper. It happens everywhere, but this is a good example in a relatively specialized ecosystem as it were.