Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[SoCal Deek]

59 pages of opinions that I don't have time to read so I'll give you my take as a professional that routinely has to interview for new contracts. 

 

Public sector institutions (cities, school districts, counties) are required use a 'qualifications based selection' process also known as QBS when hiring professional consultants. They cannot base their selection solely on price as they might when requesting construction bids, and they have to show that they used a 'process' to make their selection, lest they be accused of hiring their 'qualified' cousin for each new project. Quite often they simply go through the motions. Everyone knows it. I have been the recipient of contract awards, and the 'victim' of rejections too many times to count.

 

The NFL has tried to insert QBS into their private sector hiring practices. Is someone occasionally going to get interviewed even though the Team already knows who they want? Of course they are. Could the interview sometimes change the Team's mind? Maybe...but probably very infrequently. 

 

There is literally nothing to see here!  I am not sure what Mr Flores thought was going on here, but he is obviously very naïve. 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

45 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

Nice job by Flores assuming Elway was hung over and not engaged. Pretty strong character attack on a guy by all accounts well respected.

 

I mean, Elway may be respected, but by all reports he used to give his liver a serious workout and can still do so:

https://brobible.com/sports/article/john-elway-beer-drinking-story-woody-paige/

If you google "John Elway Drunk" you can find all sorts of video clips of 7 in an apparently inebriated state.

 

I'm sure Flores saw what he saw, but Malazan's point about the value of sticking to more generic observables - when Elway entered the room, observations of his behavior that appeared to signal disinterest etc - and staying away from statements that can potentially be slander/libel/defamation

 

Aside from the subject, but What a Year in the NFL.  Deshaun Watson, Brian Flores, now Hue Jackson - just Wow.

 

 

[zow2]

I don't doubt that minority candidates have a tough time landing head coach and executive jobs.  It's a relationship business and there's a lot of nepotism involved.  There's a lot of good white candidates that get frozen out too because they don't have an "in" with the right people.

 

Bottom line,  I think some of the issues happening to Flores are more about HIM, rather than his skin color.

 

The whole thing about paying him to tank is on another level entirely and should be investigated by the NFL of course.

Edited February 3, 2022 by zow2

[Malazan]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The little sarcastic voice inside my head said "But what if Elway shows up drunk or hungover to EVERY interview?" when I first read Flores suit.  Why not stick to things they can verify like "showed up 90 minutes late" or generic things that are hard to argue like "appeared disinterested" - instead of stuff that Elway can fire back at with "false and defamatory"?

 

 

I actually don't think that's true. 

The Rooney Rule requires that at least 2 external minority candidates be interviewed, and at least one external minority candidate be interviewed in-person.

This is a list with dates.  I italicized the guys who qualify and added the date of Daboll's interview.  GM Brian Schoen was hired on 1/21.   Frazier and Daboll both had video call interviews that same day.  I believe some of the other candidates had previously had video interviews, because they were under consideration prior to hiring Schoen as the GM.

 

New York Giants

Lou Anarumo, defensive coordinator (Bengals): Interviewed 1/23

Brian Daboll, offensive coordinator (Bills): Hired (interviewed on 1/25)

Brian Flores, former head coach (Dolphins): Interviewed 1/27

Leslie Frazier, defensive coordinator (Bills): Conducted second interview 1/28

Patrick Graham, defensive coordinator (Giants): Interviewed 1/26

Dan Quinn, defensive coordinator (Cowboys): Interviewed 1/24; remaining in Dallas

 

Supposedly, Belichick sent his texts on Monday the 24th.  The Giants look to have had a full panel of 1 per day interviews set up all week, including with their own internal candidate Patrick Graham (who is said to have really impressed the Vikings).  So the contention would be that all of those interviews were shams, including Daboll's (because he already had the job as of Monday), Grahams, Flores, and Frazier.

 

My guess would be that someone with the Giants (Mara?) called Belichick to chat about Daboll (probably called earlier about Flores) and Pegula to chat about Frazier and Daboll, and Belichick "read between the lines" that Daboll was likely to be the choice, and texted "Wrong Brian"

 

But having a lead candidate, and actually having made a firm organizational hiring decision, are two different things

 

 

Yes.  That is how it reads to me too - like "I'm Mad As Hell and I'm Not Going to Take It Anymore" day at the lawfirm

 

Thanks for laying out the dates. I had apparently misread the information. 

[PatsFanNH]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I mean, Elway may be respected, but by all reports he used to give his liver a serious workout and can still do so:

https://brobible.com/sports/article/john-elway-beer-drinking-story-woody-paige/

If you google "John Elway Drunk" you can find all sorts of video clips of 7 in an apparently inebriated state.

 

I'm sure Flores saw what he saw, but Malazan's point about the value of sticking to more generic observables - when Elway entered the room, observations of his behavior that appeared to signal disinterest etc - and staying away from statements that can potentially be slander/libel/defamation

 

Aside from the subject, but What a Year in the NFL.  Deshaun Watson, Brian Flores, now Hue Jackson - just Wow.

 

 

I wouldn’t mind Kraft offering him the chair under BB with the knowledge he will take over when he retires..  I liked Flores I think he is a good coach who went to a crap organization from owner on down.

[QLBillsFan]

19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I mean, Elway may be respected, but by all reports he used to give his liver a serious workout and can still do so:

https://brobible.com/sports/article/john-elway-beer-drinking-story-woody-paige/

If you google "John Elway Drunk" you can find all sorts of video clips of 7 in an apparently inebriated state.

 

I'm sure Flores saw what he saw, but Malazan's point about the value of sticking to more generic observables - when Elway entered the room, observations of his behavior that appeared to signal disinterest etc - and staying away from statements that can potentially be slander/libel/defamation

 

Aside from the subject, but What a Year in the NFL.  Deshaun Watson, Brian Flores, now Hue Jackson - just Wow.

 

 

Could all be true about Elways liver. He is a guy who recently hired a black head coach. Not cool if Flores is right in that he was not engaged if it’s true. 

[Gen2]

11 minutes ago, zow2 said:

The whole thing about paying him to tank is on another level entirely and should be investigated by the NFL of course.

 

During my misspent youth, whenever I would give my parents some cockamamy story trying to cover up my latest misdeed, my mother would say "son, that statement just doesn't pass the smell test".

 

Let's subject the "paying him to tank" statement to "the smell test";

 

You are the head coach of a team that the prior year had shown some promise and expectations are high for this year. You start the year 1-8 and the owner calls you into his office for a little talk. The talk can only be one of a very few scenarios, either;

 

A.) Listen coach this team is better than this but the way were playing we may not win another game all year, start winning or you will find yourself on the street this offseason.

 

B.) We're having a dog poop year, but I understand that we have some injuries in critical areas, so your job is safe, just do the best you can do.

 

C.) OH boy even though we're only half way through the season we're going to have a piss poor record ... listen ... I'll give you $100,000 for every game we lose the rest of the year so we get a better draft pick.

 

Keeping in mind there is no consensus "dynasty maker" draft pick at the top of this years draft (which is a gamble at best). Which of the scenarios makes the most sense, and which one could possibly make sense, and which one "smells" ridiculous to you? 

[Bill from NYC]

3 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's also possible someone with hiring power called him and asked his opinion on Daboll, who worked for him in two stints totalling 10 years, and didn't outright tell him they'd made a decision, but led him to "read between the lines".

You make an excellent point here.

 

To take it a step further, Belichick and Saban go back well over 40 years. Saban was an assistant for Belichick's dad, which is how they met and have remained friends. There is ZERO possibility that BB and Saban did not discuss Daboll. If Saban got a bad review from BB, there is no way he would have hired him. 

 

This indicates to me that the above quote is 100% correct. The odds of nobody having called BB for his opinion are virtually non-existant imo. It also makes me believe that his text was a pure accident.

 

Again, jmo.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, QLBillsFan said:

But he’s black and unlike Nagy he deserves special treatment. Judge him by performance in 3 years. Did some good things others not so good. 24-25 and unable to work with others. 
By the way I think gaining maturity and experience would allow him to do better next time. At the ripe old age of 43. 

 

I think the whole point of all this is, judging by the outcome (who gets hired), the only special treatment black coaches are getting is to whack their heads against a "glass ceiling" - and that the "special treatment" they are getting (Rooney Rule) is a sham.

 

By some standards, though, Flores in fact got special treatment - he skipped directly from being a LB coach with the Patriots to being a HC, without ever being a coordinator.  Measured against the experience and qualifications of a number of candidates, he's missing some pieces that might help him develop as a coach to go back and collect. 

 

He's qualified for sure, but he's not in a good place to argue that he's clearly got the best qualifications or experience in the room.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, Gen2 said:

 

During my misspent youth, whenever I would give my parents some cockamamy story trying to cover up my latest misdeed, my mother would say "son, that statement just doesn't pass the smell test".

 

Let's subject the "paying him to tank" statement to "the smell test";

 

You are the head coach of a team that the prior year had shown some promise and expectations are high for this year. You start the year 1-8 and the owner calls you into his office for a little talk. The talk can only be one of a very few scenarios, either;

 

A.) Listen coach this team is better than this but the way were playing we may not win another game all year, start winning or you will find yourself on the street this offseason.

 

B.) We're having a dog poop year, but I understand that we have some injuries in critical areas, so your job is safe, just do the best you can do.

 

C.) OH boy even though we're only half way through the season we're going to have a piss poor record ... listen ... I'll give you $100,000 for every game we lose the rest of the year so we get a better draft pick.

 

Keeping in mind there is no consensus "dynasty maker" draft pick at the top of this years draft (which is a gamble at best). Which of the scenarios makes the most sense, and which one could possibly make sense, and which one "smells" ridiculous to you? 

 

You're off a few years.  The allegation about tanking pertains to 2019, when the idea was the Dolphins would "Tank for Tua".

Instead, they won 5 games.

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

7 hours ago, muppy said:

I would love to live in a world where skin color was no cause for even comment, much less it be bantered about any time it is a Black or Hispanic or Asian or  whomever is being written about at that moment. Color schmuller...If I didnt know Flores was black I'd have had to check why the race card was even mentioned.......for me it shows We people have more work to do in our collective consciousness.

 

Your post was rhetorical I got that. Its a sore subject with me I just needed to express what I did like a vent. This case has racial overtone all over it........its shocking top to bottom

 

m

You seem Mupset about this---why?

 

It seems to me that lots of folks are weighing in on the merits of the case based on the filing of the complaint.  I'm not a lawyer, but I do know that the last place you may want to look for truth and an accurate accounting of the facts is in a summons and complaint.   That's not to say that every single thing contained in the complaint is not 100% accurate, but 'racial overtone all over' it seems a stretch at this point, Mup.  

 

Have you seen the movie Grease, Muppy?  I feel like we're at the point where the tough chick, Rizzo, is concerned she might be pregnant, tells her friend in the bathroom to keep in on the down-low, the friend spills the beans and by the time Riz gets back to the car, everyone knows and likely has an opinion on the situation.  SPOILER ALERT:  Don't read this next part if you haven't seen the movie or lived in a communist bloc country prior to the 1978 release of said film, up to, including and through this post.  Rizzo wasn't pregnant, she wasn't pregnant at all.  Easy?  Perhaps.  But let's not judge.  

 

I've lost track of how many people I have interviewed over the years, but it's more than 200 I would think.  While I never had any formalized training on the psychology of interviewer/interviewee dynamics, I worked at one point for a large, well known company, and talent acquisition was a regular part of the job (we called it "hiring people").     I've been wondering about two specific things since the news broke:

• I've wondered how well BF would have performed in the most recent spate of interviews.  It seems to me that if the allegations in his suit are true, he was carrying an awful lot of baggage around,  and given the opportunity to open up and share heartache and pain, some folks do that in a big way.  He was upset with the Broncos, upset with the Dolphins, upset with the Giants, upset at being asked to tank, his integrity impugned with offers of cash to lose--and on some level, he must have been at least moderately conflicted knowing he was offered cash to tank by the owner of the team, said nothing about it, and got the boot a short time later;
• This one is a stretch, admittedly, but part of the interview technique we used to use in the olden days involved putting people in stressful situations  to see how they might react.  While the Broncos have indicated that BF is not being truthful about their process, a part of me wonders if creating an uncomfortable situation might have been part of the plan to see how he handled it.  

 

When all is said and done, I'm disappointed.  My own dopey fandom had me thinking Flores was a good coach, tough dude and that he likely would land on his feet rather quickly with another gig.  I don't see the "he had two winning seasons" or "look how they finished!" arguments as obvious indicators he should be retained, but whatever, I'm just a fan.  I do believe his journey has followed that of other hot coordinators who didn't deliver fast enough in a 'ya better be quick about it' league.   

 

 

Edited February 3, 2022 by leh-nerd skin-erd

[The Wiz]

So after everything that has come out so far we still don't know the real end to this story.

 

How many comp picks is New England going to receive because of this?

[QLBillsFan]

16 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think the whole point of all this is, judging by the outcome (who gets hired), the only special treatment black coaches are getting is to whack their heads against a "glass ceiling" - and that the "special treatment" they are getting (Rooney Rule) is a sham.

 

You point out kind of a flaw in Flores resume though.  By some standards, he in fact got special treatment - he skipped directly from being a LB coach with the Patriots to being a HC, without ever being a coordinator.  Measured against the experience and qualifications of a number of candidates, he's missing some pieces that might help him develop as a coach to go back and collect. 

 

He's qualified for sure, but he's not in a good place to argue that he's clearly got the best qualifications or experience in the room.

Fair point on the Rooney rule. I think the solve is more black coaches in the pipeline who can become head coaches. Very few from position coaches to HC. So need to feed the position coaches and lower level roles. Then by sheer numbers the outcome will be more qualified black coaches ready to go. Currently with six blacks GM’s that’s some progress. 
Agree he was fast tracked and certainly was not a bad coach. I don’t think he was let go for leading a pretty bad team to 24-25. I think his approach on the people side of it hampered his success. I thought he was and is a viable candidate. But agree he’s not head and shoulders above others in current cycle. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I've lost track of how many people I have interviewed over the years, but it's more than 200 I would think.  While I never had any formalized training on the psychology of interviewer/interviewee dynamics, I worked at one point for a large, well known company, and talent acquisition was a regular part of the job (we called it "hiring people").     I've been wondering about two specific things since the news broke:

• I've wondered how well BF would have performed in the most recent spate of interviews.  It seems to me that if the allegations in his suit are true, he was carrying an awful lot of baggage around,  and given the opportunity to open up and share heartache and pain, some folks do that in a big way.  He was upset with the Broncos, upset with the Dolphins, upset with the Giants, upset at being asked to tank, his integrity impugned with offers of cash to lose--and on some level, he must have been at least moderately conflicted knowing he was offered cash to tank by the owner of the team, said nothing about it, and got the boot a short time later;
• This one is a stretch, admittedly, but part of the interview technique we used to use in the olden days involved putting people in stressful situations  to see how they might react.  While the Broncos have indicated that BF is not being truthful about their process, a part of me wonders if creating an uncomfortable situation might have been part of the plan to see how he handled it.  

 

When all is said and done, I'm disappointed.  My own dopey fandom had me thinking Flores was a good coach, tough dude and that he likely would land on his feet rather quickly with another gig.  I don't see the "he had two winning seasons" or "look how they finished!" arguments as obvious indicators he should be retained, but whatever, I'm just a fan.  I do believe his journey has followed that of other hot coordinators who didn't deliver fast enough in a 'ya better be quick about it' league.  

 

I agree with the last statement.

 

I also agree about the "baggage" (though the short time was, like, 3 years)

 

I forget who it was, but someone well-known and successful as a coach advised that after a failed HC stint, the best thing that coach could do would be take a year off to process and reflect, because I think there's inevitably a lot of baggage that goes with the experience.  2nd best thing if concerned for getting "out of the business" would be to step back to being a coordinator.

 

In Flores case, he never had been a coordinator (hot or not).  He was a LB coach in NE who got a big step to be the Dolphins HC.

 

I saw growth in Brian Daboll - how he handled himself with the media in ways that indicated personal growth, and at times that showed with the players - while he was an OC here.  I Get It - he was Mad as Hell and Not Going to Take It Any More and persuaded himself that he had a Public Duty to blow the lid off the NFL.  And maybe it will.

 

Or maybe it won't change very much in the end, and it would have been better for him to take a DC position (sure he would have gotten one), process, look for some education in how to "win friends and influence people", and then in due time get another chance.

 

Time will tell.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

[Doc]

I saw Elway in a Dupuytren's contracture commercial.  He looked drunk in that.  It just might be the way he looks all the time.

[TheFunPolice]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

I saw Elway in a Dupuytren's contracture commercial.  He looked drunk in that.  It just might be the way he looks all the time.

 

That part of the complaint struck me as really odd.

 

"Obviously had been drinking heavily the night before" is a subjective, unprovable claim. It seems easily defeated, and more importantly, is clearly defamatory if untrue. 

 

It just seems sloppy, and makes me wonder what other parts are sloppy. And I'm just a guy on a message board. I'm sure billionaire's lawyers noticed that too. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Doc said:

I saw Elway in a Dupuytren's contracture commercial.  He looked drunk in that.  It just might be the way he looks all the time.

 

Possibly there's a reason for that.  Heh.

[harryS]

 

On 2/2/2022 at 10:33 AM, BuffaloRebound said:

It’s almost statistically impossible to end up with 1 black head coach out of 32 without their being some form of discrimination when teams are forced to interview 2 minority candidates for every opening.  

 

I think in one the Freakonomics books (not a fan generally, but this example is interesting), there was a daycare that had a problem with parents picking up their kids late.  So the daycare started charging the parents $5 whenever they came late.  Did parents stop coming late?  No, what actually happened following this change was that the number of late pickups *increased*, because from the parents' point of view, they were now paying for the privilege of being late and no longer felt bad about it.

 

This could be similar to what's happening with the Rooney Rule.  Owners and executives might feel like the Rooney Rule is in place to take care of racism, so they themselves don't have to check their own behavior and make sure they're giving black coaches a fair shot.  In fact, they may feel that since they're being forced to interview two black coaches for every job opening, something they dislike and from their point of view wastes resources, they can be allowed to be racist in the final hire in order to balance things out.

 

Here's a very common situation in life:

(1)  There's a problem

(2)  Your solution to the problem sucks or makes it worse.

 

Unfortunately, too many people in power don't understand this.

[Chaos]

26 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Possibly there's a reason for that.  Heh.

Wow. What a terrible unjustified take. 

24 minutes ago, harryS said:

 

 

I think in one the Freakonomics books (not a fan generally, but this example is interesting), there was a daycare that had a problem with parents picking up their kids late.  So the daycare started charging the parents $5 whenever they came late.  Did parents stop coming late?  No, what actually happened following this change was that the number of late pickups *increased*, because from the parents' point of view, they were now paying for the privilege of being late and no longer felt bad about it.

 

This could be similar to what's happening with the Rooney Rule.  Owners and executives might feel like the Rooney Rule is in place to take care of racism, so they themselves don't have to check their own behavior and make sure they're giving black coaches a fair shot.  In fact, they may feel that since they're being forced to interview two black coaches for every job opening, something they dislike and from their point of view wastes resources, they can be allowed to be racist in the final hire in order to balance things out.

 

Here's a very common situation in life:

(1)  There's a problem

(2)  Your solution to the problem sucks or makes it worse.

 

Unfortunately, too many people in power don't understand this.

The NFL is driven 100% by merit/winning.  The reason the league is 450% overrepresented by minorities in the players ranks is because they give teams the best chance to win.  The same decision makers who pick minorities to play and pay them millions of dollars at 450% time their representation in the population, don't likely turn around and select coaches they think are more likely to lose than the alternatives because of their race.  The concept is absurd on its face.