Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[bobobonators]

12 hours ago, PolishPrince said:

This is such a bad argument. Why does it have to be even ratios of race on white to black? I would argue most coaches did not play very long because they simply werent that good, but loved the game - so they transitioned to the coaching side early in their career instead of being banged up and battered for a decade or more on the field. Nothing wrong with this, just saying maybe a player is more "done" after getting beaten up so long.

 

What NFL head coaches were long time players? I can think of Reich and Vrabel, not like I have an extensive knowledge of all the coaches playing careers. Most coaches, Belicheck, Reid, Carroll, Arians, McDermott, Tomlin...even up and coming coordinators and coaches like Dorsey, Kellen Moore had short careers that did basically nothing after college. Look at the new young coaches, Shannahan, McVay, Bengals Zack whatever, Stefanski. They are young coaches because they pretty much went straight into coaching rather than pursue playing.

 

Maybe Byron Leftwhich gets his shot soon? But the argument I see "well players are this, so coaches should be equal ratio or close" is kind of flat imo. Should a woman never get a head coach or coordinator job? No females currently are in the NFL.

 

The part maybe we should ask is why collegiate black players who arent expected to make it at NFL level dont seem to turn to coaching early as much? 

 

While typing this I started looking up recent black head coaches, I know Leslie Frazier played. David Culley went into coaching right out of college. Marvin Lewis same thing... BRIAN FLORES (injury prevented him from NFL so he went to coaching). Robert Saleh, Jim Caldwell, Hugh Jackson.

You didnt read what I said very well. 
 

My post never mentioned anything about duration of their football experience as players. 
 

Also, i never said it has to be even ratios. The problem, which you seem to miss, is that we are so far into the extreme of UNEVEN ratios - 1 black HC in the league - that questions need to be asked. 
 

But carry on. 

Edited February 2, 2022 by bobobonators

[BillsVet]

1 minute ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

 

This was the crux of my initial POV regarding why Flores was fired. Traditional power struggle between GM and owner vs HC. Flores might have been ok with Tua at the draft but changed his mind over the time Tua was there. Once Flores saw up close what Tua was (ability/ work ethic etc) he knew the QB was limited. More so when he sees Allen 2x a year and the other young QBs in the AFC.

 

I feel like what made this go nuclear was the Giants hire, and the info he got from BB.

 

Question for TBD. Isn't Flores Honduran? I believe his parents were immigrants from Honduras. Can someone verify? I seem to recall an article celebrating Flores being the 3rd latino head coach in NFL history. Tom Flores (no relation) and Ron Rivera being the others.

 

I wonder what kind of discussion and reaction he would have had if the Giants had hired Leslie Frazier instead of Daboll under the exact same circumstances?

 

I don't think Flores ever wanted Tua but was overruled because who Ross and by connection Grier wanted was the marquee name.  Not the first time that's happened (Ralph once wanted Flutie over Bruce Smith) but in this case Flores made it worse by being distant from their QB selection.  I think this perceived show of disloyalty was a part of the decision to move on.  

 

And Flores is Honduran.    

[goober]

1 hour ago, Southtown Tommy said:

KDIGGZ - thank you for being a voice of reason.  If racism is rampant throughout the league, owners would not employee black players.  If your response to that is "well, they want to win at all costs, despite their racist feelings", then wouldn't that be the same approach / feelings the owners would have toward black head coaches?  The Rooney rule stokes the flames of racism - it needs to go away. 

You think he's the voice of reason, whereas I had read some of his earlier posts in this thread and began wondering if he was Jimmy the Greek's nephew.

[Sharky7337]

13 minutes ago, HalftimeAdjustment said:

 

The key here is getting more coordinator and even assistant coordinator opportunities. Whether one buys into systemic racism or not, it is necessary to have a large qualified candidate pool to draw from in order to provide opportunities at the HC level.

 

The most effective way the NFL can stimulate this - right or wrong - is to extend the "comp picks for hiring a minority HC/GM" to the coordinator level. They are awarding 3rd round picks to teams if they lose a coach to another team to be their HC. The league could award 5th round comp picks to a team when their minority assistant coaches are hired as coordinators on another team.

 

I am not passing judgement on whether this rule "should" exist or be extended. But I do believe it will be more effective than the Rooney rule over the long term in providing opportunities.

This will never work.

 

With all the nepotism in the league, its time to start thinking more diverse girlfirends. 

 

Imagine a darker more diverse, steve belicheck. That is how you get more diversity for real. Operation baby momma drama.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Sharky7337

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 minutes ago, TBBills said:

If he was offered the HC job of course he wouldn't have sued... wtf kind of statement is this. The whole problem is they already had a HC and were just using Flores to appease the Rooney rule.

 

We don't know that, right?  And in fact, if Katharine Fitzgerald of The Buffalo News is correct that Belichick's texts were 3 days before Flores interview (Monday), then Daboll didn't even have his 2nd interview until Tuesday.

 

It's one thing to believe or have some information that once Schoen was hired as GM, his plan was to bring Daboll with him as HC.    But a plan is one thing, actually having a HC hired is another thing and there's lots of steps in between.  We don't even know who Belichick's source was, and his comment to (the guy he thinks is Daboll)  "hope it works out if you want it to" does not sound like knowledge of a "done deal"

[jkeerie]

1 minute ago, HalftimeAdjustment said:

 

The key here is getting more coordinator and even assistant coordinator opportunities. Whether one buys into systemic racism or not, it is necessary to have a large qualified candidate pool to draw from in order to provide opportunities at the HC level.

 

The most effective way the NFL can stimulate this - right or wrong - is to extend the "comp picks for hiring a minority HC/GM" to the coordinator level. They are awarding 3rd round picks to teams if they lose a coach to another team to be their HC. The league could award 5th round comp picks to a team when their minority assistant coaches are hired as coordinators on another team.

 

I am not passing judgement on whether this rule "should" exist or be extended. But I do believe it will be more effective than the Rooney rule over the long term in providing opportunities.

It seems to me that if you awarded the picks to the team doing the hiring of the minority coach/executive, versus the team losing the coach/executive, it actually might work.  Part of the problem is that most of the minority coordinators are on the defensive side of the ball.  With teams favoring offensive minded head coaches this year (or so it seems with the exception of Eberflus who was ironically hired by a Black GM), the only minority coordinators on that side of the ball were Byron Leftwich (with Brady as QB), Eric Bienimy (with Andy Reid mostly calling that offense) and Eric Studsville (co-coordinator on Miami).  I would expect that the teams still looking for head coaches will also mostly favor the offensive side:  The Jags to develop Lawrence, the Vikings (since Zimmer was defensive), Saints (with their success with Payton), Dolphins (to develop Tua).  The Texans will be lucky to find anyone to take that job.  Actually, they would be smart to hire Flores, if he'd take the job.  That would be interesting.

[Mango]

I think the league has a real problem with minority representation at all levels. Black coaches are given a much shorter leash and are required to have more success to maintain job security. The Rooney rule may not be the best solution, but you can't just waive it away. The sport is and has been dominated by BIPOC for quite some time, but the executives continue to be oddly pale. Until you have a better replacement other than "JuSt HiRe ThE bEsT cAnDiDaTe" it is the only real tool in the tool box.

Flores may very well be right here and I am probably side with him. 

But in court this will be a tough one. Unless Schoen put in writing somewhere that they wanted to give multiple interviews to Flores and Frazier in order to give the perception of fairness, he will have a tough time winning this. If Schoen did put it in writing his career as a GM is over before it started. 

I view things like this sort of like redlining. It is most certainly illegal. And it most certainly continues to happen. But the burden of proof needed to prosecute is so astronomically high/avoidable by companies/lenders that it is really difficult to move on legally. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, BuffaloRebound said:

It’s almost statistically impossible to end up with 1 black head coach out of 32 without their being some form of discrimination when teams are forced to interview 2 minority candidates for every opening.  Nobody’s saying these owners are KKK members, but I don’t see how anybody can say there’s not a problem. 

 

I agree there's likely a problem of equity in hiring coordinators and head coaches in the NFL

 

I also agree with folks that say the Rooney Rule does not appear to be effectively addressing it - and I wouldn't expect it to. 

 

I could spitball some of my thoughts, but the truth is where the inside of NFL teams and the thinking of ownership is, I'm firmly in Dunning-Krugerland

I will just say that in my experience, most "affirmative action" efforts are not very effective - they are too little, too late.

 

 

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

By the way...

 

 

In before the Texans name Josh McCown their new HC over Brian Flores😬😬😬

[Big Turk]

26 minutes ago, TBBills said:

If he was offered the HC job of course he wouldn't have sued... wtf kind of statement is this. The whole problem is they already had a HC and were just using Flores to appease the Rooney rule.

 

Exactly...it was a sham interview. Might not be racist but it was definitely a going through the motions process to satisfy the Rooney Rule requirements

Edited February 2, 2022 by Big Turk

[Seventeen]

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

I think the league has a real problem with minority representation at all levels. Black coaches are given a much shorter leash and are required to have more success to maintain job security. The Rooney rule may not be the best solution, but you can't just waive it away. The sport is and has been dominated by BIPOC for quite some time, but the executives continue to be oddly pale. Until you have a better replacement other than "JuSt HiRe ThE bEsT cAnDiDaTe" it is the only real tool in the tool box.

Flores may very well be right here and I am probably side with him. 

But in court this will be a tough one. Unless Schoen put in writing somewhere that they wanted to give multiple interviews to Flores and Frazier in order to give the perception of fairness, he will have a tough time winning this. If Schoen did put it in writing his career as a GM is over before it started. 

I view things like this sort of like redlining. It is most certainly illegal. And it most certainly continues to happen. But the burden of proof needed to prosecute is so astronomically high/avoidable by companies/lenders that it is really difficult to move on legally. 

 

I'd like to see some stats on the bolded. Hue Jackson had 2 1/2 years. Bowles had 4 years. 

[TheFunPolice]

all Schoen has to say is that he really loved Flores, and when it came time to make a hiring decision he was a close second and their fallback option if Daboll declined their offer. No sham at all, he just didn't beat out Daboll. But he did beat out everyone else they interviewed. 

 

Daboll was the OC of an offense that became close to unstoppable in the playoffs and helped groom Josh Allen into a superstar. So it's not crazy that Daboll would be seen as #1 and Flores as #2 choice. 

 

Now, nobody likes to hear that they are the #2 choice, but lots of #2 choices ultimately get hired and never know they were the 2nd, or even 3rd, option. 

 

If Flores wanted to put his money where his mouth was he had 3 years as HC to hire minority coaches as his coordinators to help them build their careers. Instead he went retread and NE route and then kneecapped Stedesville by making him a "Co OC" whatever the hell that means. 

 

HIS intentions were pure, of course, but first time GM's who do the same? It's all a SHAM!

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, Mango said:

I think the league has a real problem with minority representation at all levels. Black coaches are given a much shorter leash and are required to have more success to maintain job security. The Rooney rule may not be the best solution, but you can't just waive it away. The sport is and has been dominated by BIPOC for quite some time, but the executives continue to be oddly pale. Until you have a better replacement other than "JuSt HiRe ThE bEsT cAnDiDaTe" it is the only real tool in the tool box.

Flores may very well be right here and I am probably side with him. 

But in court this will be a tough one. Unless Schoen put in writing somewhere that they wanted to give multiple interviews to Flores and Frazier in order to give the perception of fairness, he will have a tough time winning this. If Schoen did put it in writing his career as a GM is over before it started. 

I view things like this sort of like redlining. It is most certainly illegal. And it most certainly continues to happen. But the burden of proof needed to prosecute is so astronomically high/avoidable by companies/lenders that it is really difficult to move on legally. 

 

Correct.  One can look at an overall pattern, and say "the statistical chances that this is happening by random chance are astronomically small".

 

But when you look at one single instance, the chances are very high that there will be plausible deniability.  Even if Daboll was the preferred candidate going into the 2nd round of interviews, unless he had actually been offered and signed a contract, we're living in The Land of Ambiguity. 

 

Occasionally there is a smoking gun, but to date, we haven't seen it.  Belichick's texts are probably Not That Thing, depending upon his source and what he heard.

[PetermansRedemption]

I understand he’s angry, but why would he kill his career over that anger? Even if he didn’t get a head coaching position this time around, he absolutely would have been a very highly paid defensive coordinator or position coach. Definitely would have gotten future HC looks. The only way this lawsuit makes any sense is if he can win 20+ years worth of offensive coordinator salary. Seems like a pretty lousy proposition given who he is going up against. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 minute ago, PetermansRedemption said:

I understand he’s angry, but why would he kill his career over that anger? Even if he didn’t get a head coaching position this time around, he absolutely would have been a very highly paid defensive coordinator or position coach. Definitely would have gotten future HC looks. The only way this lawsuit makes any sense is if he can win 20+ years worth of offensive coordinator salary. Seems like a pretty lousy proposition given who he is going up against. 

 

Maybe it isnt about money, maybe it is about principle.

[PolishPrince]

18 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

You didnt read what I said very well. 
 

My post never mentioned anything about duration of their football experience as players. 
 

Also, i never said it has to be even ratios. The problem, which you seem to miss, is that we are so far into the extreme of UNEVEN ratios - 1 black HC in the league - that questions need to be asked. 
 

But carry on. 

Well since you insisted I carry on, I will a bit.

 

I even re-read your post and re-read mine. Your entire argument of the flow and logic was attributing the overwhelming amount of black players in NFL and college level and the math not adding up. So sure you didnt say even ratios, but its heavily implied it should be a lot closer to so. So if its not even, what is your satisfactory amount?

I also think its funny that once Flores and Culley is fired we bring this discussion up, and for some reason everyone forgets about Saleh does he not count? Now lets look back to during last season: Culley, Flores, Tomlin, Saleh 4/32 12.5% of the HC positions were black. If we arent going to go off player ratios, USA is made up of around 7.5% black males, so they were trending above the curve so far (this doesnt even count as Ron Rivera who is a minority coach but no one likes to bring that up). Isnt there still jobs to fill so there is more than the 3 minority Head coaches? Maybe Culley gets another shot, or Frazier, or Leftwich or Bienemy. Didnt like 2 or 3 years ago the NFL had Vance Joseph, Steve Wilkes, Anthony Lynn, Ron Rivera, Brian Flores, Mike Tomlin and Todd Bowles at the same time? Im going off memory and dont feel like going to look it up so I might be off someone not overlapping. But thats ~22%, yet after that year I remember articles and articles about how unfair it is there still isnt enough black coaches (not saying you wrote those obviously). 

 

Maybe the extreme uneven ratios is the amount of black players in the NFL compared to whites, hispanics and asians? Why is that not a concern? Because just like coaching it should be the best person for the job no matter the skin color and its stupid to start looking at ratios by skin color rather than merit. Across the USA there are a lot more white football players up until highschool - and really probably college too if you count JUCO and DIvIII (I dont know the stat so I could be wrong on the lower colleges). So if you have more white people in the country, and more white people realizing there potential for NFL is 0, they turn to coaching much younger making them better fit for coaching roles in the future.

 

I do not care what a coaches skin color is and no one should, its dumb. Flores got a raw deal and it sounds like it was more the business side with GM's it does happen to white coaches too (though owner paying for losses is a huge issue). Flores on the field and game prep was a great coach.

[John Adams]

4 minutes ago, PetermansRedemption said:

I understand he’s angry, but why would he kill his career over that anger? Even if he didn’t get a head coaching position this time around, he absolutely would have been a very highly paid defensive coordinator or position coach. Definitely would have gotten future HC looks. The only way this lawsuit makes any sense is if he can win 20+ years worth of offensive coordinator salary. Seems like a pretty lousy proposition given who he is going up against. 

Two points. 
 

One. Maybe he really wants to make an impact. 5 HC positions are open right now. Think the black candidates chances just increased since yesterday?Me too. 

Two. I suspect Flores will get offered  lifetime Pina Coladas in the islands money to go away. 

[BuffaloRebound]

Texans or Saints would be smart to hire Flores.  I think most players would run through a brick wall for him, especially after taking on the NFL.  

[PolishPrince]

16 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

 

I'd like to see some stats on the bolded. Hue Jackson had 2 1/2 years. Bowles had 4 years. 

How about Anthony Lynn? Great guy but seemed to always under achieve and for all the complaining this site does about McDermott's time management in game, Lynn had to have been the worst i've seen. Marvin Lewis also stuck around with Bengals for way too long, decent record but could never win in playoffs.

[Reed83HOF]