Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Smug response, I dont need to look it up, I know why he left, he was forced out.  Racist comments.  Flores took over a disaster in Miami and did an admirable job and ended on what, an 8 game winning streak and fired leaving one black NFL HC.  What is your point?  Ross is also accused or tampering with other team players and paying a HC to lose games, imagine the impact of that on the NFL and their now association de facto with gambling.

 

 

It was the simplest accurate response I could think of.

 

The reason Sterling lost his team shares no similarity to this case, other than you and others calling for the owner to "lose his team".

 

No one is taking away Ross's team for firing Flores and therefore bringing the number of black HC's to 1.

 

He's accused (by Flores) of offering to pay Flores to have his team lose games, not having actually having paid a HC to lose games (that would be an interesting accusation for the paid-off coach to make, don't you think, given that is a crime?).

 

If Flores has proof of the offer, Ross is in trouble.  If he doesn't Flores is in trouble.  Pretty simple.

 

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

For the owner a "win" is found in the profit margin, not on the football field.

 

For some, that's true.

 

I think for other owners, they do sincerely want to see their team win a Championship.  For some, it may even take precedence over other factors.

 

My point is, looking around the NFL, I don't see how an argument that winning comes first for all owners can possibly be supported.

[BuffaloRebound]

1 minute ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

With all the HC openings if you cloned Tomlin he would probably be coaching the Bears and the Giants. I think the problem lies with coaches not getting enough credentials/training to become a HC and when they do they are hired on teams with a crap GM and no QB. They look bad for 2 years and the cycle repeats itself. 

And Rooney was probably the only owner who would’ve taken a chance on Tomlin at the time.  The NFL hoped putting minority candidates in front of owners was gonna change their behavior.  It hasn’t.  

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

It’s better to look at the root causes of this which I truly do not believe are racist. Look up the black HC hired and fired over the last 10 years and I bet some type of algorithm will start to form. I don’t have time to do this work but I bet Teef does.

[Fan in Chicago]

1 hour ago, Bob in STL said:

This happens literally every single season.  

I am aware, of course. I was using this case to make a general statement about the interviewing rules

[MTBill]

This whole situation sucks.

1) I absolutely believe Flores is correct that the Rooney Rule is a sham. This isn't the first time this has come up with minority coaches, and won't be the last time with it in place.

2) Is the Rooney Rule even fair/working? Is it promoting actual hires of minority coaches?

3) Now there is a lot of laundry coming out in this lawsuit - some of which is probably accurate, some could be fake news. The supposed heat between Daboll and McD was something said by the Giants, it's total heresay as far as I'm concerned.  Is it possible or even likely that Daboll and McD didn't get along?  sure.  But using a comment from someone who seemingly was going through the motions with the RR as 'evidence' is weak, he probably says whatever he wants to get what he wants.  Bill B seemingly blew this up singlehandedly.  If anyone hates the lawsuit at the NFL level, they are probably really hating on BB - but they can't do anything about it.  It was an honest mistake, but if he knew Daboll was getting hired before they even interviewed Flores, that proves the RR was a sham in this case.

4) Second case in point, Dorsey gets OC.  Bills seemingly did a very similar thing interviewing Tee Martin to satisfy the RR. Does that mean Dorsey isn't capable or wouldn't be the best person for the job?  No.  But the motions of the RR had to be satisfied and it's a sham.

5) This stuff about bonuses for losing, also a bad look. Was that offered because he was a minority?  probably not, but paying your coach to lose so you can get a better draft pick is asinine.  I don't think it makes his case, it is just further evidence that the NFL is a business first, a sports league second.

 

Rooney Rule needs to go away.  It's a sham that is now going to get Flores money and give the NFL a bad look. They need to find ways to help prepare minority coaches so they are sought out as something more than a "token minority interview".  I do think Flores can coach, but he just committed career suicide by suing the organization made up by his prospective employers.  I think the Giants organization is going to take a hit, as well as the Broncos based on those references. I wonder if the new GM also takes a hit - welcome to NY, sorry for being part of the problem, off you go.  I am not 100% sure how the Bills will end up as a result of this.  The Pegula organization seemingly cares about DEI - but this last hire of Dorsey felt very similar to Daboll in terms of the Rooney Rule.

 

EDIT - Curious question.  Anyone know the ratio of minority coaches in the FBS and/or the FCS?  Is it similar to the NFL?  NFL often uses the colleges as a farm system for coaches it feels like - but if they aren't getting opportunities there either, it makes sense.

Edited February 2, 2022 by MTBill
Added question. fixed a typo.

[The Frankish Reich]

38 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

Do you honestly believe that when the Jets hired Adam Gase after his record in Miami, he was legitimately the "best man for the job"?  Or when the Bills hired Chan Gailey or Rex Ryan for that matter?

Rex Ryan is a good example of what the Rooney Rule is supposed to accomplish. No, I don't mean "hire a white retread." I mean this:

Rex got this interview and apparently so wowed the Pegulas that famous "don't let that guy leave the building without a contract" was attributed to Terry.

That's how the Rooney Rule is supposed to work, except it ostensibly worked in reverse for Rex. Owners may start out by tending in one direction (Daboll), but then will be swayed by the charisma of a minority coach they are required to actually interview (rather than just giving him a paper consideration). And over time, that extra opportunity will start to show up in increased minority representation among NFL head coaches.

 

It's similar to the reasoning behind the "ban the box" rules that don't allow employers to ask whether an applicant has a criminal record until later (ideally, post-interview) in the hiring process. On that, the record is far from unequivocally positive:

 

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/ban-the-box-does-more-harm-than-good/

 

Even aside from that, the reasoning behind "ban the box" or Rooney Rule type procedural mechanisms is pretty weak when it comes to NFL hiring. This isn't a situation where you have dozens or hundreds of qualified applicants where there's some reason for not prematurely weeding out some of them based on employer bias. Everyone knows everything there is to know about a Daboll or Flores - the NFL coaching community is tiny and incestuous.

 

The NFL needs to fix what has become an embarrassing lack of opportunity for qualified minority coaches, and the Rooney Rule is no longer necessary or sufficient.

 

 

[ProcessTruster]

what a mess

[BuffaloRebound]

11 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

It’s better to look at the root causes of this which I truly do not believe are racist. Look up the black HC hired and fired over the last 10 years and I bet some type of algorithm will start to form. I don’t have time to do this work but I bet Teef does.

Root causes seems like an exercise of chasing your own tail.  It’d be a lot easier to ask owners like Jerry Jones why he’s hired 8 head coaches in 30 years and none of them have been a minority?  These owners gotta be made to feel uncomfortable and look in the mirror.  They’re the ones with final say in these hiring decisions.  

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

Do you honestly believe that when the Jets hired Adam Gase after his record in Miami, he was legitimately the "best man for the job"?  Or when the Bills hired Chan Gailey or Rex Ryan for that matter?

 

 

 

Art Shell

Dennis Green

Ray Rhodes

Tony Dungy

Herm Edwards

Marvin Lewis

Lovie Smith

Romeo Crennel

Mike Tomlin

Mike Singletary

Jim Caldwell

Raheem Morris

Leslie Frazer

Todd Bowles

Anthony Lynn

Vance Joseph

Steve Wilks

Brian Flores

David Culley

 

Less than 20 black head coaches in NFL history. So, I would agree owners may not always hire the "best man for the job".

Edited February 2, 2022 by BuffaloBillyG

[Seventeen]

The key question to me is would Flores have filed the lawsuit had he been offered the HC job with the Giants.  If the answer is no, then you know the 

lawsuit is about him and not blatant discrimination across the NFL. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

43 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

It was the simplest accurate response I could think of.

 

The reason Sterling lost his team shares no similarity to this case, other than you and others calling for the owner to "lose his team".

 

No one is taking away Ross's team for firing Flores and therefore bringing the number of black HC's to 1.

 

He's accused (by Flores) of offering to pay Flores to have his team lose games, not having actually having paid a HC to lose games (that would be an interesting accusation for the paid-off coach to make, don't you think, given that is a crime?).

 

If Flores has proof of the offer, Ross is in trouble.  If he doesn't Flores is in trouble.  Pretty simple.

 

 

 

 

You are correct, it is pretty simple.  Thanks for stating the obvious.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

32 minutes ago, MTBill said:

This whole situation sucks.

1) I absolutely believe Flores is correct that the Rooney Rule is a sham. This isn't the first time this has come up with minority coaches, and won't be the last time with it in place.

2) Is the Rooney Rule even fair/working? Is it promoting actual hires of minority coaches?

3) Now there is a lot of laundry coming out in this lawsuit - some of which is probably accurate, some could be fake news. The supposed heat between Daboll and McD was something said by the Giants, it's total heresay as far as I'm concerned.  Is it possible or even likely that Daboll and McD didn't get along?  sure.  But using a comment from someone who seemingly was going through the motions with the RR as 'evidence' is weak, he probably says whatever he wants to get what he wants.  Bill B seemingly blew this up singlehandedly.  If anyone hates the lawsuit at the NFL level, they are probably really hating on BB - but they can't do anything about it.  It was an honest mistake, but if he knew Daboll was getting hired before they even interviewed Flores, that proves the RR was a sham in this case.

4) Second case in point, Dorsey gets OC.  Bills seemingly did a very similar thing interviewing Tee Martin to satisfy the RR. Does that mean Dorsey isn't capable or wouldn't be the best person for the job?  No.  But the motions of the RR had to be satisfied and it's a sham.

5) This stuff about bonuses for losing, also a bad look. Was that offered because he was a minority?  probably not, but paying your coach to lose so you can get a better draft pick is asinine.  I don't think it makes his case, it is just further evidence that the NFL is a business first, a sports league second.

 

Rooney Rule needs to go away.  It's a sham that is now going to get Flores money and give the NFL a bad look. They need to find ways to help prepare minority coaches so they are sought out as something more than a "token minority interview".  I do think Flores can coach, but he just committed career suicide by suing the organization made up by his prospective employers.  I think the Giants organization is going to take a hit, as well as the Broncos based on those references. I wonder if the new GM also takes a hit - welcome to NY, sorry for being part of the problem, off you go.  I am not 100% sure how the Bills will end up as a result of this.  The Pegula organization seemingly cares about DEI - but this last hire of Dorsey felt very similar to Daboll in terms of the Rooney Rule.

 

EDIT - Curious question.  Anyone know the ratio of minority coaches in the FBS and/or the FCS?  Is it similar to the NFL?  NFL often uses the colleges as a farm system for coaches it feels like - but if they aren't getting opportunities there either, it makes sense.

 

Wow, all sorts of stuff here.

I believe the ratio of minority coaches in college football is better than the NFL, but, I don't know about the FBS or FCS.

 

I see a bunch of separate issues:

1) Was Flores interview with the Giants a "sham", and does texts from Belichick implying inside knowledge that they plan to hire Daboll before he's even interviewed prove it?

 

I would say "No". 

a) As @The Frankish Reich pointed out in this thread,

Quote

Rex Ryan is a good example of what the Rooney Rule is supposed to accomplish. No, I don't mean "hire a white retread." I mean this:

Rex got this interview and apparently so wowed the Pegulas that famous "don't let that guy leave the building without a contract" was attributed to Terry.

That's how the Rooney Rule is supposed to work, except it ostensibly worked in reverse for Rex. Owners may start out by tending in one direction (Daboll), but then will be swayed by the charisma of a minority coach they are required to actually interview (rather than just giving him a paper consideration). And over time, that extra opportunity will start to show up in increased minority representation among NFL head coaches.

 

General wisdom for job seekers is "The only job offer is one that is made in writing" and for hiring managers "the hiring search ends when the candidate signs the contract".    This has nothing to do with the Rooney Rule and everything to do with general hiring practice.

 

Remember Josh McDaniels and Indy?  They had the plane ready to fly him to Indy and the press conference to announce him as head coach planned, and he "left them at the alter" at the 11th hour.  Or what about Byron Leftwich and the Jaguars?  It was widely reported he was their guy, but it all broke down in the details, when Leftwich wanted something (a different GM) Khan wasn't prepared to give him.

 

Even if the Giants felt Daboll was their leading candidate and planned to hire him, it might not work out in the end.  And if it didn't work out, then Flores could be standing right there with his resume at the top of the pile after a great second interview. 

 

b) We don't know from those texts, what Belichick actually heard and from whom.  Unless he had information directly from someone within the Giants organization who has direct hiring authority for the HC, it's just a rumor.

 

2) Is the Rooney Rule a sham? I dunno, but I think a better question is: is it effective?  I think the evidence says "No".  I don't think it's necessarily going to get Flores money over his interview with the Giants (see above), but I think it's pretty clear it's not at all effective in changing NFL hiring patterns, and giving it bigger and bigger teeth doesn't seem to be helping.  I think it's "too little, too late".

 

 

[BuffaloRebound]

1 minute ago, Roy Hobbs said:

The key question to me is would Flores have filed the lawsuit had he been offered the HC job with the Giants.  If the answer is no, then you know the 

lawsuit is about him and not blatant discrimination across the NFL. 

Isn’t that what standing is about?  You have to show harm to yourself to file a complaint like this.  

[TBBills]

4 minutes ago, Roy Hobbs said:

The key question to me is would Flores have filed the lawsuit had he been offered the HC job with the Giants.  If the answer is no, then you know the 

lawsuit is about him and not blatant discrimination across the NFL. 

If he was offered the HC job of course he wouldn't have sued... wtf kind of statement is this. The whole problem is they already had a HC and were just using Flores to appease the Rooney rule.

Edited February 2, 2022 by TBBills

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

2 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

I get the impression Flores wasn't wearing enough flair.  Translation: he had disagreements with the front office and they wanted more of a yes-man.  

 

Of course, when the front office and the HC aren't on the same page with a QB it makes for an interesting situation.  I think Ross and by extension Grier wanted Tua, but Flores did not.  The HC did not have a close relationship with the QB and Ross/Grier began looking bad.  The rift with Flores meant they needed a scapegoat.

 

The other stuff I'm not going to comment on.  

 

This was the crux of my initial POV regarding why Flores was fired. Traditional power struggle between GM and owner vs HC. Flores might have been ok with Tua at the draft but changed his mind over the time Tua was there. Once Flores saw up close what Tua was (ability/ work ethic etc) he knew the QB was limited. More so when he sees Allen 2x a year and the other young QBs in the AFC.

 

I feel like what made this go nuclear was the Giants hire, and the info he got from BB.

 

Question for TBD. Isn't Flores Honduran? I believe his parents were immigrants from Honduras. Can someone verify? I seem to recall an article celebrating Flores being the 3rd latino head coach in NFL history. Tom Flores (no relation) and Ron Rivera being the others.

 

I wonder what kind of discussion and reaction he would have had if the Giants had hired Leslie Frazier instead of Daboll under the exact same circumstances?

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

You are correct, it is pretty simple.  Thanks for stating the obvious.

 

I'm here to help.

[HalftimeAdjustment]

50 minutes ago, SCBills said:

So do you want the Rooney Rule removed?  Or do you simply want teams to pretend better?  They will hire who they want to hire.  The issue is getting more black coaches into coordinator positions, that aren't old retreads like Leslie Frazier or coming with baggage like Eric Bienemy. 

 

The key here is getting more coordinator and even assistant coordinator opportunities. Whether one buys into systemic racism or not, it is necessary to have a large qualified candidate pool to draw from in order to provide opportunities at the HC level.

 

The most effective way the NFL can stimulate this - right or wrong - is to extend the "comp picks for hiring a minority HC/GM" to the coordinator level. They are awarding 3rd round picks to teams if they lose a coach to another team to be their HC. The league could award 5th round comp picks to a team when their minority assistant coaches are hired as coordinators on another team.

 

I am not passing judgement on whether this rule "should" exist or be extended. But I do believe it will be more effective than the Rooney rule over the long term in providing opportunities.

[bobobonators]

12 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

I think that Daboll by an overwhelming margin was the better hire, but I think they made a great, great mistake by not hiring Flores as their Assistant HC/defensive coordinator. The dude beat the Patriots multiple times with Tua Tagovoila at QB, he’s a great coach. I will also say that had the Giants not of hired Brian Daboll, that Flores should have gotten the job.

 

However, and a big however at that. Is it racist that the Giants coveted Brian Daboll? Absolutely not! We all knew that Daboll was going to be a hot coach this offseason. We all knew he was as good as gone! This guy was the premier HC candidate in the NFL. I mean, look at Dorsey for example, the understudy of Brian Daboll was in high, high, demand! Seven teams were ready to make him their OC. Call a spade a spade, Daboll was/is the best HC available on the market. Was it wrong for the Giants to say that this was their #1 guy going into the offseason? Absolutely not! That’s a pile of hot steaming hogwash!

 

I’m not so sure about the other two teams in the lawsuit though, but the Giants are 100% blameless in my eyes. The Mara family are the heads of a legendary organization, the only mistake they made was when they didn’t hire Flores to be their DC.

 

Daboll was the pick of the litter, we all know it. Flores would of had to of blown them away to get the job. If Aaron Rodgers and say Lamar Jackson were FAs, who would you sign? Same difference, just in the coaching world. Make no bones about it though, Flores is a great coach, but the Giants should not be a part of this lawsuit, they gave him a fair shake.

The Daboll hire for the Giants makes sense in many ways. I dont view it as racist, from the outside looking in.
 

That being said, i guess my post was more geared to the spirit of Flores’ lawsuit more so than the specific example of Daboll/Giants/Flores. 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

1 minute ago, Roy Hobbs said:

The key question to me is would Flores have filed the lawsuit had he been offered the HC job with the Giants.  If the answer is no, then you know the 

lawsuit is about him and not blatant discrimination across the NFL. 

If he got the Giants job there is no way he files that lawsuit. I honestly don’t think he is HC material, I would say at most a DC. I would say almost 80% of future HC’s hired will be on the offensive side of the ball.