Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[Southtown Tommy]

1 minute ago, KDIGGZ said:

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.  By trying to not be racist everyone is being racist unfortunately and these policies of hiring X amount of people is complete nonsense and racist in of itself.  Flores had a ton of opportunities this offseason and they weren't fake opportunities.  He is (was) a very in-demand coach and is still in the running for the Texans and Saints jobs.  He just didn't get the one job he wanted and now he's being a big baby.  But let's not forget that he has multiple suitors.

 

The Bills Asst GM hired the Bills OC, there's no racism going on in this situation just common sense.  And unfortunately this is triggering a lot of people because they feel like their life isn't going as well as they had hoped (shocker) and it must be because of racism too.  This coach who just made $15 million coaching the Dolphins for 3 years and is in line to make another $15 million with another team does not represent you or your struggles.  He is an extremely privileged coach who was given the keys to the highest level attainable in his profession in the world and multiple teams were ready and willing to give him another shot until he blew it all up.

KDIGGZ - thank you for being a voice of reason.  If racism is rampant throughout the league, owners would not employee black players.  If your response to that is "well, they want to win at all costs, despite their racist feelings", then wouldn't that be the same approach / feelings the owners would have toward black head coaches?  The Rooney rule stokes the flames of racism - it needs to go away. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

3 minutes ago, maddenboy said:

i would not be an accomplice.  I would refuse to be involved.

 

It would not be a conspiracy because I would not agree and i would not help.

 

And slapping my secretary is a crime.  Federal vs. State, or gravity of crime, dont matter.

 

My boss wanted me to do somethinig unethical and not part of my job.  I can choose several options there.  Me myself, I would just ignore.  In your analogy my bank-robber boss doesnt need my help to rob a bank if that's what he's gonna do.  With Flores, the boss could not possibly have tanked without Flores.  So, since my boss cannot slap my secretary without me (unless doing it herself), analogy apt. 

 

And as I said later, upthread, if there was a scheme to get my secretary slapped with or without me, then I would actively intercede.

It's extremely obvious that you don't grasp the gravity of the situation. Some would take this opportunity to belittle or smack talk here. I will pass. Hopefully you have a great Wednesday!

 

 

 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I have never like Flores as a HC, I even posted that I wanted the fish to re-sign him because he was that bad. His decision making is bad and his game time decisions are awful. He might be able to develop players on the defensive side, I would hire him as a secondary or LB coach.

[Dr. Who]

Just now, KDIGGZ said:

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.  By trying to not be racist everyone is being racist unfortunately and these policies of hiring X amount of people is complete nonsense and racist in of itself.  Flores had a ton of opportunities this offseason and they weren't fake opportunities.  He is (was) a very in-demand coach and is still in the running for the Texans and Saints jobs.  He just didn't get the one job he wanted and now he's being a big baby.  But let's not forget that he has multiple suitors.

 

The Bills Asst GM hired the Bills OC, there's no racism going on in this situation just common sense.  And unfortunately this is triggering a lot of people because they feel like their life isn't going as well as they had hoped (shocker) and it must be because of racism too.  This coach who just made $15 million coaching the Dolphins for 3 years and is in line to make another $15 million with another team does not represent you or your struggles.  He is an extremely privileged coach who was given the keys to the highest level attainable in his profession in the world and multiple teams were ready and willing to give him another shot until he blew it all up.

Well, the dominant media is going to play it as a heroic stand against racism, not a big baby tantrum. You know how that will play out.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I guess he is better than the HC that the Bears signed but just by a hair. Either way as a HC your career will die in Chicago so I guess he dodged a bullet.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Just like the players compete for starting positions where the best players win so should coaches. 
 

The GM and Owner are going to hire the best man for the job. The Rooney rule should be removed, it’s degrading. 

 

Do you honestly believe that?

 

Step aside from the Rooney Rule a moment.

 

Looking at the hiring patterns around the league where failed retread HC are given chance after chance, and young "hotshot" candidates who really haven't done too much are hired over guys with a breadth and depth of coaching experience that puts them to shame - really?

 

Do you honestly believe that when the Jets hired Adam Gase after his record in Miami, he was legitimately the "best man for the job"?  Or when the Bills hired Chan Gailey or Rex Ryan for that matter?

 

I think coaches get hired for all sorts of reasons. 

-Fear of looking bad.  If you got a guy who at least did a competent job as a HC in a previous stop, he might not bring in a Lombardi, but you won't get egg on your face and look like a fool.

-Cronyism/Nepotism.  You know a guy, or you knew his dad.  You think he's a great guy, and he won a lot in a previous stop (or he's the kid of a great coach), surely that means he knows what he's doing.

-Comfort level.  The GM is comfortable with the guy and will work well with him.  Surely that will bring good results.

 

I think the above matches the hiring patterns we see in the NFL, far better than your "best man for the job" theory.

 

[JoPoy88]

14 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I don't think Flores should have been fired from Miami.  I do think he was set up to fail there.  

 

That being said, in terms of him being a coach that absolutely deserves another HC shot immediately (according to so much of the media right now).. why?  If I'm interviewing him, I am asking him why he gets destroyed year after year by the best QB in his division, and why - two years in a row - with the playoffs on the line, his team didn't show up.  

You can ask the multiple teams who set up HC interviews with him why. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, let me ask you this.

 

Suppose you had an opportunity to interview for your dream job.  Suppose the hiring manager conveyed to you before the job something like this:

"We are interviewing internal and external candidates, and other things being equal the internal candidate would be our first choice.  But he's also in consideration for 6 other positions, and could decide to go elsewhere. People speak very highly of the job you've done, and we'd love the opportunity to interview you.  You will get a full interview and the chance to knock our socks off and change our minds.  If you want it, we'll ensure you receive constructive feedback if you aren't the successful candidate"

 

Would you take it?  Or Nah?

 

Me, if I'm a young guy in the rise, I'd take it.  I get a chance to make connections I can cultivate.  I get a chance to express my ideas for the job and practice interviewing, which may help me in the future.  I get a chance to learn something about how other organizations than the one I'm in handle different things, which may help me in my current job.

 

The point is that many job interviews are just like that, except nobody speaks those things aloud.  There's often an internal candidate (or preferred external candidate who has an "in" with the hiring manager) who is in the lead for the job.  But you never know.  You get the chance to make your pitch and "sell" the interviewers.  The preferred candidate may drop out of the race for a number of reasons.  The hiring manager may have another position later on and remember you. 

 

Now, about the "just going through the motions" thing, with 31/32 HC white and many retreads, the NFL's hiring practices probably need fixin'.  And I agree that the Rooney Rule is too little, too late.

 

But if job candidates were to get all snuffy at the thought that they might be going to a "sham" interview where the hiring team already has their preferred candidate, very few would honestly take place.

One thing to remember, Hap. There are more minority candidates than it just being a black/white issue. Robert Saleh is Lebanese. Ron Rivera is Latino. Both considered "minority" HCs.

 

That said 3 positions being filled by minority coaches is for too low. There are qualified coaches out there of many races.

 

We have also seen progression (this year anyway) with the hiring of minority GMs. If the common think is GMs hire coaches they are comfortable with (as in Daboll with Schoen) one would think we may see a trickle down of minority coaches being hired by minority GMs.

 

Then again, Minnesota just hired a minority GM and is rumored to be all in on Harbaugh (who he knows from their SF days)...so we shall see.

[nucci]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Do you honestly believe that?

 

Looking at the hiring patterns around the league where failed retread HC are given chance after chance, and young "hotshot" candidates who really haven't done too much are hired over guys with a breadth and depth of coaching experience that puts them to shame - really?

 

Josh McCown is not the best man for the job?😄

[SCBills]

Just now, JoPoy88 said:

You can ask the multiple teams who set up HC interviews with him why. 

 

Never said he shouldn't be a candidate.  But there are reasons why he isn't a slam-dunk hire beyond his skin color. 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Do you honestly believe that?

 

Looking at the hiring patterns around the league where failed retread HC are given chance after chance, and young "hotshot" candidates who really haven't done too much are hired over guys with a breadth and depth of coaching experience that puts them to shame - really?

 

Yes I honestly believe that. With exception to the Bears I think every team goes into the hiring process trying to find the most qualified person for the job. 

[Dr. Who]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Do you honestly believe that?

 

Looking at the hiring patterns around the league where failed retread HC are given chance after chance, and young "hotshot" candidates who really haven't done too much are hired over guys with a breadth and depth of coaching experience that puts them to shame - really?

 

I don't. I think the NFL is largely very corporate, very safe. They capitulate all the time to political pressure, so I find it generally difficult to believe that systemic racism is behind the lack of minority hires. The kind of binary choices you suggest -- retreads or flavor of the moment is very human. We go with what we are familiar with or we take a chance on what might be the next hot thing. It would be mature and wise to consider the fella with competence, experience, but who hasn't gotten a chance to lead at the highest level yet, but that requires going past the first "safe choice," and bypassing the easy sell of who everyone is clamoring for. In short, the explanation seems to me more a matter of typical psychology than massive indifference to social inequities. Add in that in the NFL even bad teams make money, and you have a recipe for doing the easy thing which is "human, all too human." All that said, I believe Flores is actually a hot name and his premature litigation may have cost him a head coach position.

[JoPoy88]

6 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Never said he shouldn't be a candidate.  But there are reasons why he isn't a slam-dunk hire beyond his skin color. 

 who’s claiming he is a slam-dunk choice? I don’t even think Flores claims that. His issue is with the sham hiring processes that humiliate and waste the time of black candidates. His issue is the league hiding behind the letter of the Rooney Rule, when teams clearly don’t believe in the spirit of it.

[BillnutinHouston]

Haven't really followed this thread in detail so not sure how much this angle has been mentioned, but this is a tough first impression delivered by Joe Schoen as a GM.  Presumably he was responsible for managing the HC hire.

Edited February 2, 2022 by BillnutinHouston

[BuffaloRebound]

10 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

Yes I honestly believe that. With exception to the Bears I think every team goes into the hiring process trying to find the most qualified person for the job. 

It’s almost statistically impossible to end up with 1 black head coach out of 32 without their being some form of discrimination when teams are forced to interview 2 minority candidates for every opening.  Nobody’s saying these owners are KKK members, but I don’t see how anybody can say there’s not a problem. 

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:

 who’s claiming he is a slam-dunk choice? I don’t even think Flores claims that. His issue is with the sham hiring processes that humiliate and waste the time of black candidates. His issue is the league hiding behind the letter of the Rooney Rule, when teams clearly don’t believe in the spirit of it.

 

Listen to ESPN for five seconds.  They have Flores coming across like the next Lombardi.  

 

So do you want the Rooney Rule removed?  Or do you simply want teams to pretend better?  They will hire who they want to hire.  The issue is getting more black coaches into coordinator positions, that aren't old retreads like Leslie Frazier or coming with baggage like Eric Bienemy. 

[FLFan]

28 minutes ago, Southtown Tommy said:

  If racism is rampant throughout the league, owners would not employee black players.  

Sorry, but this could be the dumbest thing I have ever read on here, even with your lame attempt to justify it.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

36 minutes ago, Southtown Tommy said:

KDIGGZ - thank you for being a voice of reason.  If racism is rampant throughout the league, owners would not employee black players.  If your response to that is "well, they want to win at all costs, despite their racist feelings", then wouldn't that be the same approach / feelings the owners would have toward black head coaches?  The Rooney rule stokes the flames of racism - it needs to go away. 

 

So I just have to shake my head at this.

 

Let's just take one point.  "If racism is rampant throughout the league, owners would not employee black players."

 

Historically, the willingness to employ people at the lowest power level in an organization does not mean that some form of prejudice is not operating in the choices for who fills the highest levels of the executive suite.   It simply doesn't. 

 

We've seen this over and over and over again in field after field, where industries are perfectly willing to make use of one group at the entry level but for one or another reason don't see them as qualified for positions of power.  Sometimes explicit prejudice is the reason.  Sometimes it's something much more subtle, and harder to get at.

 

Getting back to football - what makes you think all football owners want to "win at all costs"?  Do you think Ralph Wilson wanted to "win at all costs" through most of his tenure?  Do you think Cal McNair is focused on winning above all?  Was Bill Bidwell?    From the evidence I see, I don't think "win at all costs" is anything like a universal football ownership sentiment.  I'm not even sure "win" is.

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So I just have to shake my head at this.

 

Let's just take one point.  "If racism is rampant throughout the league, owners would not employee black players."

 

Historically, the willingness to employ people at the lowest power level in an organization does not mean that some form of prejudice is not operating in the choices for who fills the highest levels of the executive suite.   It simply doesn't. 

 

We've seen this over and over and over again in field after field, where industries are perfectly willing to make use of one group at the entry level but for one or another reason don't see them as qualified for positions of power.

 

Getting back to football - what makes you think all football owners want to "win at all costs"?  Do you think Ralph Wilson wanted to "win at all costs" through most of his tenure?  Do you think Cal McNair is focused on winning above all?  Was Bill Bidwell?    From the evidence I see, I don't think "win at all costs" is anything like a universal football ownership sentiment.  I'm not even sure "win" is.

 

For the owner a "win" is found in the profit margin, not on the football field.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloRebound said:

It’s almost statistically impossible to end up with 1 black head coach out of 32 without their being some form of discrimination when teams are forced to interview 2 minority candidates for every opening.  Nobody’s saying these owners are KKK members, but I don’t see how anybody can say there’s not a problem. 

With all the HC openings if you cloned Tomlin he would probably be coaching the Bears and the Giants. I think the problem lies with coaches not getting enough credentials/training to become a HC and when they do they are hired on teams with a crap GM and no QB. They look bad for 2 years and the cycle repeats itself.