Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[billsfan1959]

Flores appeared on CBS in an interview

 

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/former-dolphins-head-coach-brian-flores-on-his-lawsuit-alleging-race-discrimination-at-nfl/#x

 

A quote in regard to Ross offering him $100,000 per loss in 2019:

 

“I didn’t grow up with a lot and this game changed my life. So to attack the integrity of the game, that’s what I felt was happening in that instance, and I wouldn’t stand for it,” Flores said. “I think it hurt my standing within the organization and ultimately was the reason I was let go.”

 

Again, what Flores is alleging may or may not be true. However, I have a problem with Flores putting forth this image of himself as some sort of guardian of the "integrity of the game" when he failed to bring any of this to the attention of the NFL at the time or when he got fired. He only did so when he didn't get the Giants' head coaching job. The logical assumption here is that he probably wouldn't have said anything at all had he gotten the job.

 

I also have to ask if he thinks his standing up to Ross over this issue ultimately led to his firing, why did they wait over two years to fire him?

 

I certainly don't have all the facts and, as I said, the allegations may be true; however; on the surface it seeems as if Flores didn't have as much of a problem with the "attack the integrity of the game" as he portrays, until he didn't get what he wanted.

 

[dave mcbride]

4 minutes ago, Ross Murdock said:

Sounds like Flores has a slam dunk case. Beleihick all but confirmed the scam. Every poster here knows the Rooney roll was a sham. I don't like the idea of quotas at all, but if you look at the NBA which is 74% black, and the coaching is about 45% black, Vs. the NFL which is 71% black, but head coaching is now 2% black, something's not right. I just don't believe that blacks can't be solid head coaches. Even the coordinator positions are only 20% black. Plus according to todays NYT's black coaches are 75% more likely to be fired after a WINNING season Vs. white coaches. You don't have to wonder if Dolphin's owner Ross would have made the ridiculous offer of paying a "$100K bonus" for each additional loss in 2020 if Flores was white.. I think not.  

The NYT stat is a small sample size, but yeah, in recent years Caldwell (9-7), Lovie Smith (10-6), and Flores (9-8) were all fired after winning seasons. I think the only white coach to be fired was Mularkey (9-7), but there may be more that I'm not remembering. 

[SCBills]

8 minutes ago, Ross Murdock said:

Sounds like Flores has a slam dunk case. Beleihick all but confirmed the scam. Every poster here knows the Rooney roll was a sham. I don't like the idea of quotas at all, but if you look at the NBA which is 74% black, and the coaching is about 45% black, Vs. the NFL which is 71% black, but head coaching is now 2% black, something's not right. I just don't believe that blacks can't be solid head coaches. Even the coordinator positions are only 20% black. Plus according to todays NYT's black coaches are 75% more likely to be fired after a WINNING season Vs. white coaches. You don't have to wonder if Dolphin's owner Ross would have made the ridiculous offer of paying a "$100K bonus" for each additional loss in 2020 if Flores was white.. I think not.  

 

What percentage of QB's are white?  If we're going to play this game, that position literally drives the league.  

[Coffeesforclosers]

5 minutes ago, colin said:

im kinda 50/50 on the rooney rule.  it feels like a forced mandate, a wrong to correct a wrong if you will, but given that it's only interviews, it's also kinda practical and may well lead to better results.  net net i think it's fine.

 

in terms of is it a sham, or is it working, does the nfl not have many more minority coordinators than it did just a little while ago?  if that's true, then i'd say it's doing the job as intended.  head coaching might not be up to snuff in the representation regard, but i think you have to give it time and see how hiring goes.  firing happens so often in the nfl that it's kinda hard to take a snap shot, you have to look at it over time.

 

the next question to me is, how many minority coaches should there be?  black nfl players are obviously over represented (vs pop) but is that where head coaches even come from?  do they come from college coaches, general pop, etc?  i think obviously it's a mix, but if the interviews are happening it's got to be a good thing for those who want more minority coaches, even if they seem like sham interviews sometimes, cuz you gotta be in it to win it/miss 100% of the shots you don't take etc.

 

if flores has evidence of ross asking for tanking, that's a massive bombshell, and should cost ross the team, and probably create some new rules.

 

The Rooney Rule is what it is, a bad solution to a much worse problem.  But it's a solution that's needed.  You can't tell me that a league that's 70% black can only produce one or two HC caliber a year? No ***** way, especially when you KNOW that there's more black players than Randy Moss, Ed Reed, and Willie McGinnest that have off the charts football IQ.

 

Now Flores is a smart guy, at more than just football.  He linked the Rooney Rule issue, ie: that the Rooney Rule is a ***** joke that all NFL owners and hiring executives are in on, to match fixing/collusion.  Now he can't just be pigeonholed as a guy that can't hack it taking pot shots at his boss.  The whole league has to square up to him now if they want this to end.  He's made all the right moves to max out his leverage and he's going to get his pound of flesh.

[T master]

It's not really surprising today and i'm kind of surprised it hasn't or doesn't happen more because of the rule .

 

In Buffalo's case i thought because of what they had said prior to interviews that they wanted to promote from with in the franchise as far as the OC & front office personal what is the sense of making the team do interviews of minority candidates if they have already settled on someone isn't that somewhat of a racist thing in and of it self ?

 

If i were a coach & was called in just to satisfy a rule put in place by the NFL just because i was of a minority knowing that the team had their person already but was just doing window dressing because they were told that's what they need to do all in the thoughts of being fair i would consider that a slap in the face .

 

Don't bring me in (especially if you not going to hire me) because i actually have a chance to get the job but just bring me in to pander to the minority rule put in place to make everyone think we are doing what is right for minorities when in fact your just going through the motions with no intent of actually hiring those folks !

 

Sounds like the NFL just trying to cover their respective asses to me ...

Edited February 2, 2022 by T master

[maddenboy]

25 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Flores says he was never going to stand for it. Proceeds to coach the team for 2 years while concealing the fact that he was being offered a bribe to tank games.

 

That's one thing that doesn't sit right with me. Understandable, guy just wanted to do his job and do forth. However at minimum, he suppressed the information while continuing to collect millions of dollars in salary from the guy that just tried to talk him into some pretty serious illegal and unethical deeds. Had he come forward to the league or media or anything public before I could get on board that he had a high character and morals. Waiting until after he gets canned just makes it look like jilted lover syndrome.

nah

 

if my boss told me to slap my secretary in the face, i just wouldnt do it.

 

If she told me to do it and she'd give me $10k, I would acknowledge that she said words to me in English, but I wouldnt do it.

 

I would not feel the need to quit, or complain to some labor board.  I would just keep doing my own job the best I could.

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

The NYT stat is a small sample size, but yeah, in recent years Caldwell (9-7), Lovie Smith (10-6), and Flores (9-8) were all fired after winning seasons. I think the only white coach to be fired was Mularkey (9-7), but there may be more that I'm not remembering. 

I keep forgetting Miami ended up with a winning record, especially after we destroyed them twice.  

 

I was shocked when I heard Flores was fired, he inherited an absolute disaster in Miami and for him to end up with a 24-25 w/l record is really incredible.  This Stephen Ross must be a real piece of work.  I would love to know what the gambling number is on him losing the franchise ownership.  

[maddenboy]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

That said: it's not uncommon in every job that the hiring manager(s) may have an internal candidate who they prefer, and who will likely get the job unless an external candidate just overwhelmingly wows the interview panel, or the internal candidate has some dirty laundry that gets uncovered and a Really Bad Interview Day, or the internal candidate turns down the job offer to take a different position.

 

 

Government work.

 

When I worked for the govt., everybody knew who was getting the promotion.  The same person who has been in line for it for a long time.

 

But, as I learned when I started there, the office was required to post it to the public first, because public agency using public funds, etc.

[RobbRiddick]

2 minutes ago, maddenboy said:

nah

 

if my boss told me to slap my secretary in the face, i just wouldnt do it.

 

If she told me to do it and she'd give me $10k, I would acknowledge that she said words to me in English, but I wouldnt do it.

 

I would not feel the need to quit, or complain to some labor board.  I would just keep doing my own job the best I could.

 

If your boss offered you money to physically abuse another member of staff you wouldn't at least have a quiet word with HR about it?

 

I think I would

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, loveorhatembillsfan4life said:

Culley is weird one for me. It seems in my eyes he was setup to fail   Houston was a crap show and Culley actually had them playing respectfully.  

 

Agree. (I think you mean "respectably")

 

 

[maddenboy]

Just now, RobbRiddick said:

 

If your boss offered you money to physically abuse another member of staff you wouldn't at least have a quiet word with HR about it?

 

I think I would

actually, no.  I would not.  Recognizing I might be in the minority there.

 

But if it appeared to be part of a scheme, or there was a contest or somehting where it might actually happen, then I would prevent it.  actively.

[BillsVet]

35 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

This part all amazes me.  So Ross was pissed at Flores for screwing up the tank - but (1) they still went 5-11, (2) they still were in a position to draft the QB Ross initially wanted (Tua), (3) they were also in position to draft Herbert, (4) the Dolphins' GM, who is Black, picked Tua over Herbert, and (5) IIRC the Dolphins were the only team in the league last year with a Black coach, GM, and QB.  Yet Flores is claiming that Ross held it all against him for over a year and ultimately fired him, because racism.

 

That part of the narrative makes no sense and tells me it was only included in an effort to destroy Ross/the NFL and to bring maximum attention and settlement leverage.

 

I get the impression Flores wasn't wearing enough flair.  Translation: he had disagreements with the front office and they wanted more of a yes-man.  

 

Of course, when the front office and the HC aren't on the same page with a QB it makes for an interesting situation.  I think Ross and by extension Grier wanted Tua, but Flores did not.  The HC did not have a close relationship with the QB and Ross/Grier began looking bad.  The rift with Flores meant they needed a scapegoat.

 

The other stuff I'm not going to comment on.  

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Agree. (I think you mean "respectably")

 

 

Thanks good catch. Sometimes I type from my Phone fast haha

[BuffaloBillyG]

9 minutes ago, maddenboy said:

nah

 

if my boss told me to slap my secretary in the face, i just wouldnt do it.

 

If she told me to do it and she'd give me $10k, I would acknowledge that she said words to me in English, but I wouldnt do it.

 

I would not feel the need to quit, or complain to some labor board.  I would just keep doing my own job the best I could.

Horrible anaolgy. 

 

Slapping secretaries isn't really on par with what is being described by Coach Flores. I believe (not 100% certain but am researching now) that what Ross is being accused of is a Federal Crime.

 

Better anaolgy may be if your boss offered you money to rob a bank. Showed you the plans on how he wanted it done, what your payout would be and you said nothing.

 

If you could keep that quiet and continue to work for that boss..congrats. You are now an accomplice after the fact and display zero integrity and moral value. 

 

In that case, I'm happy you are on the other side of my own thought process/values system.

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by BuffaloBillyG

[maddenboy]

9 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Horrible anaolgy. 

 

Slapping secretaries isn't really on par with what is being described by Coach Flores. I believe (not 100% certain but am researching now) that what Ross is being accused of is a Federal Crime.

 

Better anaolgy may be if your boss offered you money to rob a bank. Showed you the plans on how he wanted it done, what your payout would be and you said nothing.

 

If you could keep that quiet and continue to work for that boss..congrats. You are now and accomplice after the fact and display zero integrity and moral value. 

 

In that case, I'm happy you are on the other side of my own thought process/values system.

 

i would not be an accomplice.  I would refuse to be involved.

 

It would not be a conspiracy because I would not agree and i would not help.

 

And slapping my secretary is a crime.  Federal vs. State, or gravity of crime, dont matter.

 

My boss wanted me to do somethinig unethical and not part of my job.  I can choose several options there.  Me myself, I would just ignore.  In your analogy my bank-robber boss doesnt need my help to rob a bank if that's what he's gonna do.  With Flores, the boss could not possibly have tanked without Flores.  So, since my boss cannot slap my secretary without me (unless doing it herself), analogy apt. 

 

And as I said later, upthread, if there was a scheme to get my secretary slapped with or without me, then I would actively intercede.  Because I would feel a duty to get involved beforehand.  I dont think i have a duty to prevent somebody from bank robbery.  So I would do what Flores did in the moment.  Put Ross on "ignore"

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by maddenboy

[SCBills]

I don't think Flores should have been fired from Miami.  I do think he was set up to fail there.  

 

That being said, in terms of him being a coach that absolutely deserves another HC shot immediately (according to so much of the media right now).. why?  If I'm interviewing him, I am asking him why he gets destroyed year after year by the best QB in his division, and why - two years in a row - with the playoffs on the line, his team didn't show up.  

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

Just like the players compete for starting positions where the best players win so should coaches. 
 

The GM and Owner are going to hire the best man for the job. The Rooney rule should be removed, it’s degrading. 

[What a Tuel]

43 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

This happens literally every single season.  

 

Im with him, it may happen every season but it is BS. They should have to wait for coaches similar to players with a no tampering date until post super bowl.

[HalftimeAdjustment]

17 minutes ago, Ross Murdock said:

Sounds like Flores has a slam dunk case. Beleihick all but confirmed the scam. Every poster here knows the Rooney roll was a sham. I don't like the idea of quotas at all, but if you look at the NBA which is 74% black, and the coaching is about 45% black, Vs. the NFL which is 71% black, but head coaching is now 2% black, something's not right. I just don't believe that blacks can't be solid head coaches. Even the coordinator positions are only 20% black. Plus according to todays NYT's black coaches are 75% more likely to be fired after a WINNING season Vs. white coaches. You don't have to wonder if Dolphin's owner Ross would have made the ridiculous offer of paying a "$100K bonus" for each additional loss in 2020 if Flores was white.. I think not.  

 

A slam dunk case of "something's not right" does not equate to a slam dunk legal case. The difficulty is that the league and the teams are semi-independent entities.

 

At the league level, they have instituted policies which ostensibly attempt to promote minority hiring. There is no credible evidence I have seen that the NFL did anything specific to Flores giving him cause to sue them.

 

At the teams level, we have:

- Ross acting unethically. While you may think he would behave differently with a white coach, that is difficult to show with a preponderance of the evidence.

- Ross terminating him after 2 winning seasons. This is the closest to a smoking gun but, it is not at all clear that an individual plaintiff can make a claim based upon the background facts that white coaches get more chances and leeway. That evidence is real, but I am not sure it has legal weight.

- The Giants supposedly conducting a sham interview, based upon what BB heard about Daboll. Depending on their documentation and further discovery, this may or may not be provable. Even if provable, and if found somehow illegal (complex question) it is unclear what relief can be granted legally. Again, something can be real and wrong without being legally actionable. In this case there are tangible reasons they may be able to present for preferring Daboll over Flores, specifically QB development and offensive production.

- The Broncos conducting an allegedly bad interview while hung over, then selecting Vic Fangio over Flores. Again, not clear how this will play out.

 

My feeling is that Flores cannot expect anything other than a settlement from the NFL which may agree to a few policy changes in order to mitigate the PR disaster this causes. In court, he is not likely to get far in terms of actual remedies being ordered. But he may be able to obtain some concessions because the NFL will not fare well in the court of public opinion.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, T master said:

It's not really surprising today and i'm kind of surprised it hasn't or doesn't happen more because of the rule .

 

In Buffalo's case i thought because of what they had said prior to interviews that they wanted to promote from with in the franchise as far as the OC & front office personal what is the sense of making the team do interviews of minority candidates if they have already settled on someone isn't that somewhat of a racist thing in and of it self ?

 

If i were a coach & was called in just to satisfy a rule put in place by the NFL just because i was of a minority knowing that the team had their person already but was just doing window dressing because they were told that's what they need to do all in the thoughts of being fair i would consider that a slap in the face .

 

Don't bring me in (especially if you not going to hire me) because i actually have a chance to get the job but just bring me in to pander to the minority rule put in place to make everyone think we are doing what is right for minorities when in fact your just going through the motions with no intent of actually hiring those folks

 

Sounds like the NFL just trying to cover their respective asses to me ...

 

Well, let me ask you this.

 

Suppose you had an opportunity to interview for your dream job.  Suppose the hiring manager conveyed to you before the job something like this:

"We are interviewing internal and external candidates, and other things being equal the internal candidate would be our first choice.  But he's also in consideration for 6 other positions, and could decide to go elsewhere. People speak very highly of the job you've done, and we'd love the opportunity to interview you.  You will get a full interview and the chance to knock our socks off and change our minds.  If you want it, we'll ensure you receive constructive feedback if you aren't the successful candidate"

 

Would you take it?  Or Nah?

 

Me, if I'm a young guy in the rise, I'd take it.  I get a chance to make connections I can cultivate.  I get a chance to express my ideas for the job and practice interviewing, which may help me in the future.  I get a chance to learn something about how other organizations than the one I'm in handle different things, which may help me in my current job.

 

The point is that many job interviews are just like that, except nobody speaks those things aloud.  There's often an internal candidate (or preferred external candidate who has an "in" with the hiring manager) who is in the lead for the job.  But you never know.  You get the chance to make your pitch and "sell" the interviewers.  The preferred candidate may drop out of the race for a number of reasons.  The hiring manager may have another position later on and remember you. 

 

Now, about the "just going through the motions" thing, with 31/32 HC white and many retreads, the NFL's hiring practices probably need fixin'.  And I agree that the Rooney Rule is too little, too late.

 

But if job candidates were to get all snuffy at the thought that they might be going to a "sham" interview where the hiring team already has their preferred candidate, very few would honestly take place.