Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[K D]

59 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

This is a nuanced topic. Im against someone being hired bc of their

race as much as im opposed to someone being rejected bc of their race. 
 

I think we can all agree the NFL has a problem. The majority of players are black. The vast majority of coaches are white. All the owners are white. Im pretty good at math and that doesnt add up properly. 

Forget about discussing the owners being white - thats too obvious and beyond the realm of fixable. 
 

As for the coaches being white…logic and reason would suggest some of the best candidates to coach a team are those who have been around the game. Logic follows players are around the game. Following that logic most NFL coaches have played football either in the NFL or in college at some point, regardless of how good they were - they played. Awesome. Logic is flowing so far.
 

A very good portion of NCAA football players are black. The overwhelming majority of NFL players are black. Nevertheless, the overwhelming majority of HC and coaching assistants are NOT black. Logic and reason are now broken. We have a problem. 
 

Are former black football players simply not interested in coaching? I dunno. Theres no point in lying to each other. I think if we have an honest conversation we can admit somewhere along the chain there is a serious problem. The question is how do we fix it. Im not sure the Rooney rule is the solution. 

Trying to force equitable outcomes never works. It's not the fairest or most efficient way to operate a business. There are fewer female CEOs - is that because everyone is sexist? Or because women often choose to start a family and take time away from work rather than working their way up the corporate ladder? Women are also more sympathetic by nature so they choose to be nurses or teachers, jobs that help people. Should you hire the best person for the job or just based on race/gender/etc? The latter is by definition racist/sexist.

 

As a white CB they tried to switch me to S because I had little to no chance to make it at that position. That seems pretty racist don't you think? How many white CB's can you name besides Jason Sehorn? I think they need more white CB's in the NFL. For every black CB there should be a white one. It's only fair right? Or should they just hire the best person for the job?

[Boatdrinks]

13 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

How many if us here "knew" Daboll was going to the Giants once Schoen was hired as GM?

 

 

Exactly and there were plenty of reports speculating as much. Why are folks shocked and faux outraged about it when they predicted it? These whiny temper tantrums about the ways of the world need to stop. People hire their friends/ colleagues when they get the big promotion. I mean I don’t wonder how many caucasians some rapper has in his entourage when he makes it big. Doesn’t offend me, it’s just how s$&+ works in the real world. I’d rather listen to talk radio or sports tv talking about Brady’s freakin retirement than this crap. 

[ghostwriter]

57 minutes ago, bobobonators said:

This is a nuanced topic. Im against someone being hired bc of their

race as much as im opposed to someone being rejected bc of their race. 
 

I think we can all agree the NFL has a problem. The majority of players are black. The vast majority of coaches are white. All the owners are white. Im pretty good at math and that doesnt add up properly. 

Forget about discussing the owners being white - thats too obvious and beyond the realm of fixable. 
 

As for the coaches being white…logic and reason would suggest some of the best candidates to coach a team are those who have been around the game. Logic follows players are around the game. Following that logic most NFL coaches have played football either in the NFL or in college at some point, regardless of how good they were - they played. Awesome. Logic is flowing so far.
 

A very good portion of NCAA football players are black. The overwhelming majority of NFL players are black. Nevertheless, the overwhelming majority of HC and coaching assistants are NOT black. Logic and reason are now broken. We have a problem. 
 

Are former black football players simply not interested in coaching? I dunno. Theres no point in lying to each other. I think if we have an honest conversation we can admit somewhere along the chain there is a serious problem. The question is how do we fix it. Im not sure the Rooney rule is the solution. 

I think that Daboll by an overwhelming margin was the better hire, but I think they made a great, great mistake by not hiring Flores as their Assistant HC/defensive coordinator. The dude beat the Patriots multiple times with Tua Tagovoila at QB, he’s a great coach. I will also say that had the Giants not of hired Brian Daboll, that Flores should have gotten the job.

 

However, and a big however at that. Is it racist that the Giants coveted Brian Daboll? Absolutely not! We all knew that Daboll was going to be a hot coach this offseason. We all knew he was as good as gone! This guy was the premier HC candidate in the NFL. I mean, look at Dorsey for example, the understudy of Brian Daboll was in high, high, demand! Seven teams were ready to make him their OC. Call a spade a spade, Daboll was/is the best HC available on the market. Was it wrong for the Giants to say that this was their #1 guy going into the offseason? Absolutely not! That’s a pile of hot steaming hogwash!

 

I’m not so sure about the other two teams in the lawsuit though, but the Giants are 100% blameless in my eyes. The Mara family are the heads of a legendary organization, the only mistake they made was when they didn’t hire Flores to be their DC.

 

Daboll was the pick of the litter, we all know it. Flores would of had to of blown them away to get the job. If Aaron Rodgers and say Lamar Jackson were FAs, who would you sign? Same difference, just in the coaching world. Make no bones about it though, Flores is a great coach, but the Giants should not be a part of this lawsuit, they gave him a fair shake.

[TheFunPolice]

3 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Exactly and there were plenty of reports speculating as much. Why are folks shocked and faux outraged about it when they predicted it? These whiny temper tantrums about the ways of the world need to stop. People hire their friends/ colleagues when they get the big promotion. I mean I don’t wonder how many caucasians some rapper has in his entourage when he makes it big. Doesn’t offend me, it’s just how s$&+ works in the real world. I’d rather listen to talk radio or sports tv talking about Brady’s freakin retirement than this crap. 

 

Plus Flores himself basically insinuates that Daboll was willing to be his OC...

 

So how exactly would Flores comply with the Rooney Rule for his OC opening in a way that wasn't a sham, to use his words? 

 

There's no crime in the Giants hiring the OC of the Bills, who helped develop Josh Allen and called 2 consecutive games this season against Belichick where the offense scored on every drive and didn't punt once. 

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[Charles Romes]

8 hours ago, HappyDays said:

Wow they literally paid him to tank. This is going to rock the NFL.

 
 

interestingly there was nothing on this in the NFL Network piece tonight.  They usually try to fairly report on themselves. But they have gone full Pravda on this one. 

[TheFunPolice]

How does a coach tank?

 

Prepare poorly? The players would have to be in on it you'd think. 

[Boatdrinks]

1 minute ago, Charles Romes said:

 
 

interestingly there was nothing on this in the NFL Network piece tonight.  They usually try to fairly report on themselves. But they have gone full Pravda on this one. 

I can see waiting to see if there is anything substantial there. Pretty major allegation if true. Then there’s those new deals the NFL has with the Sportsbooks. The league always distanced themselves from gambling in the past; probably for good reason. 

[BuffaloFan32]

https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2022/2/1/22913143/brian-flores-bill-belichick-texts-nfl-discrimination-lawsuit
 

wtf does belichick mean when he says he ‘heard from Buffalo?’  With his history of spying, this is very concerning to me.

[FireChans]

17 minutes ago, Paup 1995MVP said:

 

I know they all got fired.  But my point is that they all sucked as head coaches.  And black head coaches who suck should get fired also.  They just need to be given a chance first.  I can not believe that Joe Judge was highly qualified to do anything on a football field that would make him head coaching material.  Just very weird how a sport whose players are predominantly black has so few coaches that are black.  

 

And good for Flores tearing the Dolphins, Broncos and Giants a new one.  Elway has been a drunken fool since leaving the game.  Ross is a coockoo.  And the Giants have become a joke of a franchise.  Good luck Daboll.  

Flores wasn't good as a head coach. And he hated his black QB. His owner chose the black QB over the black coach.

 

Flores is not going to win. He is torpedoing his career for nothing. A former Bills AGM wanted to hire a former Bills OC with an impressive resume because he had worked with him. That former Bills AGM did his due diligence in interviewing other candidates because that's what a good manager would do. But he wanted Daboll and he hired him. 

 

The rest is just smear and hearsay.

[QLBillsFan]

1 hour ago, billieve420 said:

Apparently Flores wanted Herbert. There was also this report. There was some rift between Flores and Grier my guess mainly over the QB and Ross stuck with his GM.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/patriots/nfl-rumors-did-brian-flores-tell-tua-tagovailoa-hed-rather-have-mac-jones

https://www.outkick.com/how-brian-flores-really-felt-about-tua-tagovailoa/

[billieve420]

12 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

https://www.outkick.com/how-brian-flores-really-felt-about-tua-tagovailoa/

What people say in public and behind closed doors are two separate things. Not surprised he would back his QB. However, his actions spoke otherwise like when he benched Tua for Fitzpatrick. I don’t think he was in love with Tua and Dolphins as a team looked into trading for Watson last year. So definitely believe not everyone in that organization was sold on Tua being the long term answer.

Edited February 2, 2022 by billieve420

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I get that it happens.  Admitting to it is just stupid, though.

 

Where did the Giants admit to it? 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/01/giants-brian-flores-was-a-serious-candidate-we-hired-the-coach-we-felt-was-most-qualified/

Flores contends that the interview was a sham, but the Giants responded by saying that Flores was a serious candidate for the job.

“We are pleased and confident with the process that resulted in the hiring of Brian Daboll,” the statement said. “We interviewed an impressive and diverse group of candidates. The fact of the matter is, Brian Flores was in the conversation to be our head coach until the eleventh hour. Ultimately, we hired the individual we felt was most qualified to be our next head coach.”

Bills defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier, Giants defensive coordinator Patrick Graham, Cowboys defensive coordinator Dan Quinn, and Bengals defensive coordinator Lou Anarumo also interviewed for the Giants before Daboll was hired. Frazier and Graham are Black and the NFL’s Rooney Rule requires teams to interview at least two external minority candidates for head coaching openings but Flores’ suit contends that they were not under real consideration for the job.

 

Unless we know exactly what Belichick heard and from whom, we really don't know that the Giants, in fact, made a hiring decision prior to Flores interview.

And if they did, they very likely won't admit to it.

 

On Pro Football Talk, Mike Florio claims that most owners (75%) already know who they want to hire next before they make their decision to fire the current coach.  That would make most interview processes an "equal opportunity sham": both the white and the minority candidates are working with a stacked deck where the winning card is already known.  I think this is still true in some cases (Raiders hiring Gruden; Jacksonville hiring Urban), but in others, the process is more open and a legitimate open search is conducted.  (I don't think the Pegulas knew they wanted to hire McDermott when they fired Ryan, for example).

 

My guess would be that Mara legitimately was very interested in hiring Flores, and had his FO people talking to Flores (for example, the Jan 11 text conversation where McDonnell supposedly said that Daboll might leave Buffalo for a lateral move).    But once they hired Joe Schoen as GM, he  may have stipulated for a strong voice or maybe the deciding voice in hiring the HC, and he had a different set of names that started with Brian Daboll, and included Leslie Frazier.  TBH, I think Schoen wanted an offensive guy, and Daboll was his top choice - and actually, the only offensive coach they interviewed.

 

 

[Richard Noggin]

It's amazing posters haven't forced the mods' hands on this thread already. Can't imagine how many posts have been deleted, or at least how many private warnings have been issued. We are a fanbase/region/nation divided with respect to worldviews. I'd just like to posit the approach that maybe, just maybe, given the entirety of the history of Western Civilization, that we consider power dynamics, and grant some grace to those speaking their truths to power. In this case, let's allow that maybe Flores (and apparently whomever else has signed on to this class action suit) have at least some merit to their claims. 

 

It's entirely possible to hold onto one's pre-conceived personal views on these sensitive issues AND exercise a modicum of empathy and open-mindedness until more information comes to light. History tells us those in power are usually guilty to some extent of trying, even unconsciously, to maintain the status quo. It takes unpopular whistle blowers, sometimes, to shed specific light on this reality. 

 

But what do I know. 

[QLBillsFan]

1 hour ago, BuffaloRebound said:

It’s not cut and dry, but how likely is it that 31 head coaching jobs (minus Belichik because he was pre-rooney rule) have had to interview a black candidate and only 1 of those 31 jobs currently have a black head coach.  The Rooney Rule is a joke.  And the NFL is gonna have to fork over a ton of money.  

Why are they going to fork out $? Because a black coach was fired for an under .500 record. Nagy had a similar record and a playoff appearance. Black coaches are getting jobs. But just like white coaches if they don’t win, they get fired. Multiple GM’s are black and so more coaches will get hired. But are these current GM’s who are black also racist for not hiring a black coach? 

[The Wiz]

25 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

How does a coach tank?

 

Prepare poorly? The players would have to be in on it you'd think. 

Call only 10+ yard routes with Tua.

[QLBillsFan]

16 minutes ago, billieve420 said:

What people say in public and behind closed doors are two separate things. Not surprised he would back his QB. However, his actions spoke otherwise like when he benched Tua for Fitzpatrick. I don’t think he was in love with Tua and Dolphins as a team looked into trading for Watson last year. So definitely believe not everyone in that organization was sold on Tua being the long term answer.

The point was he was part of the decision to take Tua and not Herbert. He was onboard with that. 

[billieve420]

4 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

The point was he was part of the decision to take Tua and not Herbert. He was onboard with that. 

He was but doesn’t mean they couldn’t disagree on selection. If Grier was in control of 53 and wanted Tua and other people agreed. Flores could have went along with the majority which could have included the owner even if he preferred someone else.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if this was main contention between the Front office and HC which lead to his firing.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10013297-dolphins-rumors-brian-flores-preferred-to-draft-justin-herbert-over-tua-tagovailoa

https://thespun.com/nfl/afc-east/miami-dolphins/report-brian-flores-tua-tagovailoa-got-into-shouting-match

 

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by billieve420

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, Richard Noggin said:

It's amazing posters haven't forced the mods' hands on this thread already. Can't imagine how many posts have been deleted, or at least how many private warnings have been issued. We are a fanbase/region/nation divided with respect to worldviews. I'd just like to posit the approach that maybe, just maybe, given the entirety of the history of Western Civilization, that we consider power dynamics, and grant some grace to those speaking their truths to power. In this case, let's allow that maybe Flores (and apparently whomever else has signed on to this class action suit) have at least some merit to their claims. 

 

It's entirely possible to hold onto one's pre-conceived personal views on these sensitive issues AND exercise a modicum of empathy and open-mindedness until more information comes to light. History tells us those in power are usually guilty to some extent of trying, even unconsciously, to maintain the status quo. It takes unpopular whistle blowers, sometimes, to shed specific light on this reality. 

 

But what do I know. 

 

Well.  More than one thing can be true.

 

The NFL almost certainly stuck in a biased and inequitable hiring pattern for top coaches.  There are only 32 of these positions.  The owners and CEOs want to feel comfortable and confident about their coaching hires. 

 

What people do most of us feel most confident can do a job competently? 

Someone who has done it before! 

 

What people do most of us feel most comfortable with?

Usually, with people who are "like us" in some way - have some commonality of background, education, patterns of speech, jokes, whatever.  We "click" with some people and don't "click" with others, and usually don't put a lot of thought into why.

 

So we have a pattern in the NFL of hiring "retreads" - coaches who have done it before - and also of hiring the people the owner or GM (or whoever has the hiring authority) feels most comfortable with.  Then HCs want to hire coordinators they've worked with and feel most comfortable with.  There's also nepotism and cronyism - do we really think Steve Belichick got play calling responsibilities after an open search for the best talent?  Or Britt Reid was the best LB coach?

 

I don't think it needs a "whistleblower" to know that a lot of owners seem to have fixated on a new coaching hire probably before the old one gets the axe.  Gruden and Urben Meyer would be two examples.  The Rooney rule has just been treated as an inconvenient formality and circumvented in all kinds of superficial ways (which Florio enumerated in his PFT piece on the topic if anyone is interested).

 

Which is why the NFL raised the bar on the Rooney rule to say there must be two external minority candidates and an in-person interview with one external minority candidate.

 

But it obviously isn't helping too much so far, because it doesn't change the fundamental pattern of a limited number of decision makers, choosing coaches who have either "done it before", or who they feel most comfortable with.

 

If the NFL really wants to foster diversity at the upper levels of coaching, it needs a very different strategy than the Rooney Rule.  I think minority coaches have a perfect right to be mad as hell and to want there to be a more equitable hiring process which gives talented young coaches in general a more realistic chance at a hire.

 

That said, I think Flores lawsuit (on the face of it) is not going to accomplish too much.  Some depends upon what's behind Belichick's texts and so forth, but companies do continue with a series of interviews even after they have identified a leading candidate those involved in the search want to hire, so it would be a pretty high burden of proof to establish that the later interviews are a "sham".  It is, of course, always possible that a later interview will knock everyone's socks off and change the picture. 

 

So I don't think it really sheds much light - we already know it's going on - and I'm not sure what it will change.

 

But it will make a hell of a stir.

 

 

[Richard Noggin]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well.  More than one thing can be true.

 

The NFL almost certainly stuck in a biased and inequitable hiring pattern for top coaches.  There are only 32 of these positions.  The owners and CEOs want to feel comfortable and confident about their coaching hires. 

 

What people do most of us feel most confident can do a job competently? 

Someone who has done it before! 

 

What people do most of us feel most comfortable with?

Usually, with people who are "like us" in some way - have some commonality of background, education, patterns of speech, jokes, whatever.  We "click" with some people and don't "click" with others, and usually don't put a lot of thought into why.

 

So we have a pattern in the NFL of hiring "retreads" - coaches who have done it before - and also of hiring the people the owner or GM (or whoever has the hiring authority) feels most comfortable with.  Then HCs want to hire coordinators they've worked with and feel most comfortable with.  There's also nepotism and cronyism - do we really think Steve Belichick got play calling responsibilities after an open search for the best talent?  Or Britt Reid was the best LB coach?

 

I don't think it needs a "whistleblower" to know that a lot of owners seem to have fixated on a new coaching hire probably before the old one gets the axe.  Gruden and Urben Meyer would be two examples.  The Rooney rule has just been treated as an inconvenient formality and circumvented in all kinds of superficial ways (which Florio enumerated in his PFT piece on the topic if anyone is interested).

 

Which is why the NFL raised the bar on the Rooney rule to say there must be two external minority candidates and an in-person interview with one external minority candidate.

 

But it obviously isn't helping too much so far, because it doesn't change the fundamental pattern of a limited number of decision makers, choosing coaches who have either "done it before", or who they feel most comfortable with.

 

If the NFL really wants to foster diversity at the upper levels of coaching, it needs a very different strategy than the Rooney Rule.  I think minority coaches have a perfect right to be mad as hell and to want there to be a more equitable hiring process which gives talented young coaches in general a more realistic chance at a hire.

 

That said, I think Flores lawsuit (on the face of it) is not going to accomplish too much.  Some depends upon what's behind Belichick's texts and so forth, but companies do continue with a series of interviews even after they have identified a leading candidate those involved in the search want to hire, so it would be a pretty high burden of proof to establish that the later interviews are a "sham".  It is, of course, always possible that a later interview will knock everyone's socks off and change the picture. 

 

So I don't think it really sheds much light - we already know it's going on - and I'm not sure what it will change.

 

But it will make a hell of a stir.

 

 

Of course I mostly agree with you here. But..when you say "we" are aware of the situation already, who all is included in that collective? Because I've read posters in this thread who absolutely DO agree with it, and I've read those who do NOT. My point is that there is NOT yet a consensus that equitable representation and opportunity is a problem in the NFL. Therefore the stir caused by this lawsuit could bring about broader, popular awareness and attention that might force or perhaps inspire tangible change. 

 

How such change would actually transpire is beyond my capacity for optimism. It's a fraught campaign. 

[QLBillsFan]

23 minutes ago, billieve420 said:

He was but doesn’t mean they couldn’t disagree on selection. If Grier was in control of 53 and wanted Tua and other people agreed. Flores could have went along with the majority which could have included the owner even if he preferred someone else.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if this was main contention between the Front office and HC which lead to his firing.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10013297-dolphins-rumors-brian-flores-preferred-to-draft-justin-herbert-over-tua-tagovailoa

https://thespun.com/nfl/afc-east/miami-dolphins/report-brian-flores-tua-tagovailoa-got-into-shouting-match

 

 

Sure he could have. Or it could gone as reported that he agreed to Tua. For sure it’s been documented that he soured pretty quickly on him. Tua does not come out of this looking good at all.