Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

[Bill from NYC]

47 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

His team was still in a playoff race.  Not odd at all.

I don't think that is the point Promo. Flores is saying that he knew that Ross wanted to tank and just now decided to come forward.

[maddenboy]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Why?

 

Would are his damages?  

 

 

this isnt a fender-bender case, so he doesnt have receipts for out-of-pocket expenses.  Maybe he can argue lost wages. 

 

But If its civil rights litigation, then the jury will decide what his damages are.  Especially if punitive damages are awarded (as they sometimes are for things like fraud or other misconduct).

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, HamSandwhich said:

You’re assuming he wouldn’t get interviewed, I would reject that premise. He is a good coach and would garner interviews anyway. 

Then the rule wouldn't effect him at all anyway.

[Last Guy on the Bench]

These critiques of the Rooney Rule are simple minded. Regardless of race, there are lots of reasons it's good to get in a room with execs, even if they have already decided who they think they are going to hire. And there are also lots of good reasons for the organizations to hold multiple interviews, even when they have a preferred candidate.

 

I've been on lots of hiring committees where we had a pretty good idea of who we would probably hire (often an internal candidate). But we went through our process and interviewed multiple people. Sometimes, we changed our minds because someone unexpected blew us away. More often, we did end up hiring the candidate we thought we would, but when we liked someone else we interviewed, we kept them in mind for other jobs (which they sometimes got), and also were able to talk about them to others who were looking. If you don't get in the room, none of this can happen.

 

The Rooney Rule is a reasonable response to systemic, structural racism (based on who has what networks and relationships historically) and to personal, unconscious racism (who execs are "comfortable with," the "kind of person" they are looking for). It can't singlehandedly change either of these, but it does offer some incursion.

 

Not saying it's perfect or beyond critique. There may be better ways to tackle the problem. But all of these "See, it's a farce!" posts are pretty thin.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Last Guy on the Bench

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

Just now, Warcodered said:

Kind of seems weird to do that and also ***** over the guy he thought he was sending congratulations to.

I agree he deep downs thinks the Pats are super manipulative and control everything so they know exactly what they are doing lol 

[Warcodered]

1 minute ago, The Wiz said:

I was going to say, I know people thought that it was Watson but that was before his legal issues and was still under contract with texans.

but he wanted to leave.

[RiotAct]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I for one can't wait to see how many comp picks the Patriots are awarded in the aftermath.

sounds like Belichick was extremely helpful to Flores personally  in all of his endeavors, so… probably four 2nd-rounders.

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, Bill from NYC said:

I don't think that is the point Promo. Flores is saying that he knew that Ross wanted to tank and just now decided to come forward.

 

Saying something during the season would let his players down, wouldn't it? I see no problem waiting till now.

[HamSandwhich]

13 minutes ago, Heitz said:

 

It does?  How many other times has this suit been brought over the years?

You don’t think this kind of thing happens when you are required to do something? That others may not have had explicit knowledge of events that they feel is discriminatory  (I don’t agree it was discriminatory in the Giants). Or maybe they did but determined it was not discriminatory or decided not to sue

[Chaos]

3 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

You're avoiding my question.

 

As for players. They have a combine to test players. They have scouts to find players. They don't have that for coaches and front offices.

Actually you are avoiding my question.  You are mental if you think the NFL hires players on merit, and hires coaches on race.   

[ndirish1978]

I just finished reading through all 58 pages of the complaint. This reads like someone who is just sick and tired of feeling like he's getting screwed over and is at the end of his rope and frustrated. The suit's evidence is largely historical data and a few allegations against Stephen Ross which will hurt the Dolphins and a hearsay accusation that the Giants had made up their minds to hire Daboll before even interviewing Flores. 

 

His injunctive relief seeks, amongst other things, to "Ensure diversity of decision-making by permitting select Black players and coaches to participate in the interviewing process for General Manager, Head Coach and Offensive and Defensive Coordinator positions." These are privately owned teams, who can hire whomever they want. If you think billionaires are going to be forced to listen to coaches and players tell them who to hire, I wish you well. 

 

There are several bombshells, a couple of which have been picked up by the media. The biggest one i see is Stephen Ross tried to get Flores to meet with, presumably Brady, on a yacht to recruit him, which is in direct violation of league tampering rules. 

 

A lot of this lawsuit does read like a list of personal complaints about why he isn't a head coach. Flores says he was ridiculed for not tanking his first season. He argues "Upon information and belief, no white Head Coach has ever been subjected to such ridicule over winning and holding the spirt of the game in such high regard. In fact, Mr. Flores was ultimately terminated and subsequently defamed throughout the media and the League as he was labeled by the Dolphins brass as someone who was difficult to work with. This is reflective of an all too familiar “angry black man” stigma that is often casted upon Black men who are strong in their morals and convictions while white men are coined as passionate." There is no way to prove this point, it's just an arbitrary complaint. It also fails to note that the GM, part of the Dolphins brass he is criticizing for firing him and labelling him as difficult, is black. As such, it seems like a reach to suggest that labelling him as difficult was racially motivated.

 

The suit does go out of its way to label named parties by their race, which they have to do in order to create suspicion of every person hired instead of a black candidate. Joe Schoen, who is white, is made to look like he was hired despite there being many qualified black candidates for the job. That's pretty baseless. He then claims that the job was Daboll's all along because BB texted him thinking he was Daboll congratulating him on the job. That's probably enough anecdotal evidence for an investigation, though thin because the evidence comes from someone outside the organization. Even if this was the case, I don't see racism in a GM picking a coordinator from his old team to come along with him. In fact, him listing Daboll as a prospective HC is likely one of the things that landed him the job. 

 

I'm not sure that this lawsuit, which obviously is not based on unfounded history of discrimination, is the lawsuit that changes things that need to be changed. This is a class-action, so he's looking to certify and have other black coaches join the suit, which seems poorly conceived for a few reasons. First, current coaches are unlikely to risk their careers by joining and you would need them for credibility. Second, the facts aren't damning to anyone but the Dolphins and on that front only show they violated league rules in regards to tampering. Lastly, it was a missed opportunity to make only black coaches members of the class, they should have gone broader and opened it up to all minority candidates. Of course I could be wrong, but this suit has more chance of changing things through public pressure rather than actual legal relief; which is what I suspect it was aimed at. 

 

Thought I might save everyone some time reading. Here's the link to the complaint in case anyone is interested: https://www.wigdorlaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Complaint-against-National-Football-League-et-al-Filed.pdf

 

Edited February 1, 2022 by ndirish1978

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

3 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

I'm laughing at the "became labeled as someone difficult to work with" claim.  

 

If Ross did this he's for sure trash 

 

However I always hated Flores and thought he was a product of the media.  This just confirms I think he's a piece of garbage burning everything on his way out.  

 

He's been thinking about this since they were 1-5

Flores might have legit cause.  And be right.

 

But some of the claims, with I question how he would prove some of it (like the Broncos Brass being hung over) read like an overreach to me.

 

and once you start overreaching…it calls into question/doubt your entire argument.

[PromoTheRobot]

Just now, Chaos said:

Actually you are avoiding my question.  You are mental if you think the NFL hires players on merit, and hires coaches on race.   

 

I did answer your question: "As for players. They have a combine to test players. They have scouts to find players. They don't have that for coaches and front offices."

[papazoid]

he will lose his case.....the rooney rule will be used against him

 

he will never work in the NFL again.....his best bet now is college

 

(this is what i said earlier today in another thread:)

 

the rooney rule hurts absolutely no one

 

it is not a final hiring mandate or quota. the best still get hired.

 

the Rooney Rule aims (not forces) to increase the number of minorities hired in head coach, general manager, and executive positions.

 

of course there can be some sham interviews, but good can still come out of them for most  parties

 

[Bill from NYC]

13 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

Saying something during the season would let his players down, wouldn't it? 

I do not argue that point.  Still, how would this work in other industries? You don't think that he was supposed to notify NFL officials that an owner actually offered him money to purposely lose games?

Really?

Edited February 1, 2022 by Bill from NYC

[hondo in seattle]

I read most of the suit.   Interesting stuff.   Leaves me pretty much convinced that the NFL is racist.  

 

But I don't think Flores has a winnable case.

Any attorneys want to chime in?

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

This is absurd.

[maddenboy]

6 minutes ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said:

My pats friend thinks Bill gave Brian the ok to show the text as an FU to the Nfl and Godell for Deflategate. 

if true, makes me wonder if BB is thinking about retirement.  

 

separately, I'm wondering whether BB would actually prefer to retire in the same year as Brady, take some of Brady's shine, and end up in the HOF the same year as Brady.  That would be oh-so delicious.

[Casey D]

1 minute ago, Warcodered said:

It's not a waste of time though, maybe you don't have a shot but you're putting your name out there to people that make these decisions, not much else you can do.

You are correct.  And the Rooney Rule-- or faux compliance with the rule-- will not be the basis for liability.  The basic claim is that black coaches are not being hired because they are black, i.e., they are qualified but not being hired simply because of the color of their skin.  The Rooney rule actually cuts against this claim, as it shows the NFL is trying to promote black coaches.  The alleged faux compliance with the rule is simply a piece of evidence suggesting that the bias is so great that teams will not even interview in good faith.  But with no Rooney rule, the claim would be the NFL is not even trying to overcome alleged systemic bias.  The discrimination claim is much more fundamental than simply not complying with the Rooney rule.

 

At the end of the day, it is hard to see how this can be a class action.  Each situation is individualized, not common to every coaching candidate.  Unless there is some grand scheme to deny black coaches jobs at a league-wide level, there can be no class. 

 

And all of this will be hard to prove, because it will be difficult to show the reason for the failure to hire a particular person was due to race, and not because the Giants, for example, simply wanted an offensive minded coach.  And was racism a factor in the hiring of David Culley and his rapid firing, or was it because he seemed in over his head.  This could be a long slog that the NFL will want to settle IMO, because the defense evidence of "merit" will have ugly overtones that will be a PR nightmare. . 

[ndirish1978]

15 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

He interviewed before daboll.

 

Oooff, that would seem to invalidate Flores' argument right there.

Edited February 1, 2022 by ndirish1978