Have the last two weeks put to rest the debate about the 2017 draft?

[Rubes]

The big debate, of course, is whether the Bills did the right thing by giving away the #10 pick to KC for Mahomes, thereby giving away a QB who wins a Super Bowl, wins league and Super Bowl MVP, and is established as one of the top franchise QBs in the league for the next decade-plus.

 

Most of us here love Josh enough to be ecstatic that he's our franchise QB for the future, and still prefer him over Mahomes even though he hasn't achieved quite the same accolades as Mahomes so far and the Bills haven't yet won a Super Bowl with him. Still, there are always those nagging questions whether the Bills would have won a Super Bowl with Mahomes by now, or whether Josh isn't quite at the same elite Championship-level as Mahomes.

 

To me, the past two weeks have put anything left in that debate to rest. What have the past two weeks shown us?

 

1. Josh is every bit as clutch and elite as Mahomes. In this biggest game, on the biggest stage, Josh was a superstar, making jaw-dropping play after play and sealing the deal (so we thought) with an incredible display of poise and precision in driving the Bills to two huge TDs in the final 2:00. He matched Mahomes toe-to-toe, big play for big play. Throughout the playoffs he has played at the highest level any QB could be expected to play.
2. If Mahomes was on the Bills, they'd still be in the same place today. Josh didn't lose that game against KC, coaching and defense lost it. If Mahomes was in there for us, he couldn't really have done any better—coaching and defense would still have lost it for them. Having Mahomes would have made no difference.
3. The criticism of Allen that he occasionally becomes "sugar-high" Allen and loses his poise is valid, but it's been a long time since we've seen it. He's learning to overcome it and maintain his confidence and leadership. On the other hand, we just saw Mahomes do that very thing—he lost his composure, had serious mental breakdowns, and played like absolute dog ***** in the biggest game of the season on the biggest stage. Mahomes is susceptible to it too—and he can be just as susceptible to bad coaching or playcalling.

 

Mahomes does have a Super Bowl win, Super Bowl MVP, and league MVP under his belt, but what we saw in the last two weeks is that Josh is every bit as good as Mahomes is, our coaching and defensive breakdowns are what's holding us back, and Mahomes is capable of having as disastrous a performance as anyone in the big game under the big lights. I doubt we'd have a Super Bowl win with Mahomes by now.

 

Obviously we can't say for sure what the counterfactual would be, but I for one am 1000% behind having Josh and Tre over Mahomes. I don't think there's an argument left that it was a mistake to trade the pick away to KC.

 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

I don’t think mahomes would look as good here as he does in kc…he seems to really lock on to hill and Kelce for better or worse and we really don’t have any absolute freak athletes at skill positions like that. 

[Frostbite]

4 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I don’t think mahomes would look as good here as he does in kc…he seems to really lock on to hill and Kelce for better or worse and we really don’t have any absolute freak athletes at skill positions like that. 

I agree, but think it's due to coaching. I'm a big believer that coaching has everything to do with a player's success and think Mahomes is the perfect match for Reid's offense. Put him anywhere else and I think he's a solid, but not great, player.

[SoCal Deek]

The stories have yet to be completely written. With the Chiefs losing Sunday on a Mahomes interception, his resume is changing in real time. Now, he's hosted multiple home AFC Championship games but has led them to 'only' one Super Bowl victory. And in that game the Chiefs were losing until the last three minutes of the game.  Last year he gets pummeled by Tampa. And this year doesn't make the big game.  Let's see what happens next year....but the years begin to pile up.

[eball]

The "debate" will never be over, and I for one don't really care.

 

I'm pretty happy with Tre and Josh and where the Bills are positioned going forward.  I think Chiefs' fans are happy as well with their status.

 

Sometimes it can be a "win-win."

 

Go Bills.

[BuffaloBillyG]

We ended up with Josh, Tre AND the QB selected 1st overall in that draft (for last season anyway). We won.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Just now, eball said:

The "debate" will never be over, and I for one don't really care.

 

I'm pretty happy with Tre and Josh and where the Bills are positioned going forward.  I think Chiefs' fans are happy as well with their status.

 

Sometimes it can be a "win-win."

 

Go Bills.

If we had tre and josh available were in the Superbowl imo.  Valiant effort by Levi and Dane Jackson for most of the game but they’re just not good enough to keep up with those kc receivers. 

[Chandler#81]

1 hour ago, eball said:

The "debate" will never be over, and I for one don't really care.

 

I'm pretty happy with Tre and Josh and where the Bills are positioned going forward.  I think Chiefs' fans are happy as well with their status.

 

Sometimes it can be a "win-win."

 

Go Bills.

This. If there’s any debate, it dies when who we drafted after trading the pick to KC is an established All Pro. THEN we Draft Allen 1st the next year.

[Albany,n.y.]

Unless a team is promoting from within, they shouldn't draft a QB in the 1st round when they're about to fire the current GM.  Unless the player is an instant hit the GM will want his own QB.  

That said, if the Bills were seriously in the QB market in 2017, they should have fired Whaley and hired Beane in January to give him time to pick a QB.  Obviously the Bills were looking to the 2018 draft for their QB in 2017.  

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, Rubes said:

The big debate, of course, is whether the Bills did the right thing by giving away the #10 pick to KC for Mahomes, thereby giving away a QB who wins a Super Bowl, wins league and Super Bowl MVP, and is established as one of the top franchise QBs in the league for the next decade-plus.

 

Most of us here love Josh enough to be ecstatic that he's our franchise QB for the future, and still prefer him over Mahomes even though he hasn't achieved quite the same accolades as Mahomes so far and the Bills haven't yet won a Super Bowl with him. Still, there are always those nagging questions whether the Bills would have won a Super Bowl with Mahomes by now, or whether Josh isn't quite at the same elite Championship-level as Mahomes.

 

To me, the past two weeks have put anything left in that debate to rest. What have the past two weeks shown us?

 

1. Josh is every bit as clutch and elite as Mahomes. In this biggest game, on the biggest stage, Josh was a superstar, making jaw-dropping play after play and sealing the deal (so we thought) with an incredible display of poise and precision in driving the Bills to two huge TDs in the final 2:00. He matched Mahomes toe-to-toe, big play for big play. Throughout the playoffs he has played at the highest level any QB could be expected to play.
2. If Mahomes was on the Bills, they'd still be in the same place today. Josh didn't lose that game against KC, coaching and defense lost it. If Mahomes was in there for us, he couldn't really have done any better—coaching and defense would still have lost it for them. Having Mahomes would have made no difference.
3. The criticism of Allen that he occasionally becomes "sugar-high" Allen and loses his poise is valid, but it's been a long time since we've seen it. He's learning to overcome it and maintain his confidence and leadership. On the other hand, we just saw Mahomes do that very thing—he lost his composure, had serious mental breakdowns, and played like absolute dog ***** in the biggest game of the season on the biggest stage. Mahomes is susceptible to it too—and he can be just as susceptible to bad coaching or playcalling.

 

Mahomes does have a Super Bowl win, Super Bowl MVP, and league MVP under his belt, but what we saw in the last two weeks is that Josh is every bit as good as Mahomes is, our coaching and defensive breakdowns are what's holding us back, and Mahomes is capable of having as disastrous a performance as anyone in the big game under the big lights. I doubt we'd have a Super Bowl win with Mahomes by now.

 

Obviously we can't say for sure what the counterfactual would be, but I for one am 1000% behind having Josh and Tre over Mahomes. I don't think there's an argument left that it was a mistake to trade the pick away to KC.

 

It's pretty easily one of the biggest blunders in franchise history. That was put to rest years ago. Josh Allen could became the single greatest athlete in the past present and future of humankind and it doesn't change that.

They didn't pass on Mahomes because they wanted Josh Allen the next year. If Allen repeats his 2016 performance in 2017, he goes #1 and they don't have a prayer. We could have ended up with Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen instead. Then where would we be?

You're grading the quality of their decision based on the results of the butterfly effect and that's a terrible way to grade the quality of decision making, as it effectively removes any responsibility from those making them.

Edited February 1, 2022 by BullBuchanan

[Warcodered]

I mean it depends on how you look at it, did it work out yes, was it a miss at the time, absolutely. While not going all in on a 1st round pick QB when you don't even have the GM you want yet makes sense, you can't really argue that the Bills needed a franchise QB and that they could have taken a guy that's become one of the better ones.

 

Even if you knew how good both Mahomes and Allen would be when you got to that pick you'd take Mahomes, because you have no way of guaranteeing that you'll be in that same position with Allen in the next year.

[InTheBuffAllTheTime]

If I was part of another fan-base and I could pick between the two, hands-down I'd take Josh but of course I'm not. I'm part of the Bills fan-base so I'm biased and my thoughts on the matter mean diddly squat.

 

All that matters to me is what / who Josh is as a player and a community member / leader. He is quintessentially Buffalonian. He is, today, more than we could have hoped for. The hospital, his leadership, his competitiveness and desire. I truly get excited to watch him play. All I have wanted for too long is for the Bills to be competitive and entertaining to watch. Josh brings that every single week.

 

Mahomes is a very talented player. I like him. He's not Josh. Time will tell of course but I believe we've seen Mahomes' ceiling. I don't believe we've seen just yet how good Josh will be.

 

[corta765]

So yes and no.

 

Yes at this point the trade in 2017 paid off and was worth it. Neither side has buyers remorse in any way and if your a Bills fan it pay major dividends. 

 

No in the sense that until Josh leads this team to a SB and wins it his comparison with Mahomes will always being weighed slightly down by that. Mahomes has a ring, has been to two titles, and probably goes to a 3rd in 2018 if the OT rules/his defense both don't suck. Fair or not Josh nationally won't be completely equal until he gets the ring. Growing up Brady v Manning until Peyton got his ring it did feel like he was discounted however slightly despite Brady's advantages with team and coach. Allen winning a ring for Buffalo is equal his weight in gold.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

There was a debate?

 

 

I love ❤️ JA17. 
 

🎤 

[May Day 10]

I don't believe mahomes enjoys the same career arc here.  He would have gotten forced in on year 1, and wouldn't enjoy kelce,  hill, and hunt, and all that came with becoming the chiefs qb when he took over

[The Jokeman]

Watching Mahomes he's everything I worried what Josh would be. He just relies too much on his athleticism etc. much aka hero ball Josh. It's served him well but we see where failed him in that final drive in the 2nd and 4th quarters against the Bengals. It's obvious he benefits from Hill and Kelce as can't see him doing as well with Diggs or Knox if situations were reversed.  I say this as a non fan of Mahomes and Josh in their draft years, I'm glad we have Tre and Josh instead of Mahomes.

[K D]

Mahomes successful in KC, Allen successful in Buf. End of story. Mahomes can't do what Allen does and vice versa. If Allen isn't the player he is we don't have a running game at all for instance. Each situation is unique

[sunshynman]

13 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

Watching Mahomes he's everything I worried what Josh would be. He just relies too much on his athleticism etc. much aka hero ball Josh. It's served him well but we see where failed him in that final drive in the 2nd and 4th quarters against the Bengals. It's obvious he benefits from Hill and Kelce as can't see him doing as well with Diggs or Knox if situations were reversed.  I say this as a non fan of Mahomes and Josh in their draft years, I'm glad we have Tre and Josh instead of Mahomes.

Although his talent would have shown in Buffalo, I agree he can't do what Josh does. We relied on Josh to will us to wins the past couple years. Josh doesn't have the same talent around him the Mahomes does. And I don't see Mahomes rising to Josh's level to carry the team to wins.

Edited February 2, 2022 by sunshynman
spelling

[MiltonWaddams]

All you had to say was “Jackson Mahomes” and the debate was over…

[Southern_Bills]

I'd rather have Allen than Mahomes every Sunday. 

 

With that said, if Tre was playing and could have made a game sealing pick, yes it would officially kill this conversation, buy he wasn't.

 

For me it's been over though, having his fiance and brother represent your team is enough to change my mind. 

 

Also I can't imagine Mahomes is a good dude when he surrounds himself with selfish disrespectful people like he does.