Who is the best pass rusher we can get or available via trade

[Jim Bob]

31 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

I read somewhere that Chicago can get out of his contract this year if they want to

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/sports/nbcsports/khalil-macks-season-ending-injury-raises-questions-about-bears-future/2689652/?amp

 

There is an out. But, it comes with $24M in dead cap space if I read the contract details correctly.

 

I'm not sure that Chicago wants to deal with that or not.

 

And I am not sure that Buffalo outbids everyone else if Mack hits the open market. 

 

Quote

The only good thing about Mack’s contract is that it is still tradeable. Moving Mack would reduce the Bears’ 2022 cap hit to $24 million (creating $6 million in space) and take him off the books in 2023 and 2024. Meanwhile, a team trading for Mack would only be acquiring his base salaries and roster bonuses, which are non-guaranteed. That means a team would still have to pay a relatively fair price of about $17.5 million for Mack’s services in 2022, but would not be on the hook for any money in 2023 and 2024 if it doesn't work out.

 

$17.5M would be fun to try and make fit within the Bills cap. It would be possible. But it would also be challenging.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Jim Bob

[dave mcbride]

48 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

I read somewhere that Chicago can get out of his contract this year if they want to

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/sports/nbcsports/khalil-macks-season-ending-injury-raises-questions-about-bears-future/2689652/?amp

Good, informative piece.

18 minutes ago, Jim Bob said:

$17.5M would be fun to try and make fit within the Bills cap. It would be possible. But it would also be challenging.

You can convert it to bonus and spread it out. It's not hard.

[Alphadawg7]

24 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

i'm with ya 10000% on this.

I don't think Beane is. He basically said he would draft a DE in every round if he could and that he believes that is how you build a team and that is his philosophy.

 

Id expect another significant investment in the DE position this year, which frankly makes me angry. 

 

You may be correct on that, but if he does, I would expect it will be through the draft though if he went after another DE.  However, I think it’s unlikely we go DE in the first 2 rounds unless someone surprising falls into their lap they covet and was BPA.
 

Can’t see him making a big trade taking a lot of draft capital and a lot of cap space.  Now that we have extended Allen, cap management becomes critical to continue fielding balanced and talented teams.  So we need those draft picks (especially since we should be perennially picking late) to keep infusing young affordable talent into the roster, especially to help our efforts to retain our own that we want to keep each year.   
 

All that being said, I do know and respect Beane is a wizard, so nothing is ever out the question.  I just think it’s a very low probability we make a big splashy move for a premiere DE in a trade.
 

 

[SCBills]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You may be correct on that, but if he does, I would expect it will be through the draft though if he went after another DE.  However, I think it’s unlikely we go DE in the first 2 rounds unless someone surprising falls into their lap they covet and was BPA.
 

Can’t see him making a big trade taking a lot of draft capital and a lot of cap space.  Now that we have extended Allen, cap management becomes critical to continue fielding balanced and talented teams.  So we need those draft picks (especially since we should be perennially picking late) to keep infusing young affordable talent into the roster, especially to help our efforts to retain our own that we want to keep each year.   
 

All that being said, I do know and respect Beane is a wizard, so nothing is ever out the question.  I just think it’s a very low probability we make a big splashy move for a premiere DE in a trade.
 

 

 

The problem with the constant "draft DL" philosophy is that it takes DL (outside top 5 picks) 2-3 years to develop.  

 

We just finally all got to the point, at the end of their rookie contracts, where we view Oliver as a must re-sign and Harry is a hope-we-can re-sign.  

 

Now maybe Rousseau, Basham and Epenesa all make that jump this coming year... but that's a lot of trust in your evaluation/development.  

 

For the record.. I think we have to trust.  Maybe we make a splash, but more than likely, these guys are who we were preparing for this coming year with.  

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by SCBills

[Alphadawg7]

44 minutes ago, Fred Slacks said:

I think you articulated my point better than I could. It’s stupid to just say their QB is better (or as good) and so we should just not bother trying to effect him. We are close. We need someone there who makes a difference. It ups everyone’s play on defense. 
 

I don’t think the cap argument is a real argument. Look at teams like the Rams. They keep reading picks and shelling out huge contracts. Somehow they make it work. I’m sure it will eventually rear its ugly head for them. But surely we can manipulate the cap to get one stud dude in here. That’s how I feel. 

Except you are referring to me and that’s NOT what I said.  That’s how you took it, but that’s not what I said.

 

What I actually said is stop over reacting to an elite player playing elite.  You can’t mortgage your future over one game, but if you guys were the GM you would do just that in response to the best player in the NFL playing out of his mind Sunday.  Our last rushers were just fine when we played them and beat hen in the regular season. 
 

You seem to think magically a different player makes another tackle or two, but there is literally no evidence to your assumptions.  And you want to add one “game wrecker” while the Chiefs had three and didn’t slow us down despite us having the worse OL.  So sorry, this “game wrecker” cure all theory is not something I am buying.

 

You think the Chiefs now are gonna go add a fourth game wrecker pass rusher now because Allen popped off?  No. 
 

Reactive personnel decisions like that are what kills franchises futures.  This isn’t Madden.  

Besides:  We were the better team Sunday, won the game, and then gave it away over a miscommunication error between our ST Coordinator and Bass.  And that was WITHOUT our best defensive player in Tre, who would have been much more impactful than a different DE that got like one more sack.  Fans tend to grossly over value sack statistics.
 

So let’s get better where we really need to.  More speed in the secondary, get Tre White back at full strength, bolster the OL and interior DL.  
 

We were already better than them as is, now do those things and we will get past them decisively. 

 

6 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

The problem with the constant "draft DL" philosophy is that it takes DL (outside top 5 picks) 2-3 years to develop.  

 

We just finally all got to the point, at the end of their rookie contracts, where we view Oliver as a must re-sign and Harry is a hope-we-can re-sign.  

 

Now maybe Rousseau, Basham and Epenesa all make that jump this coming year... but that's a lot of trust in your evaluation/development.  

 

For the record.. I think we have to trust.  Maybe we make a splash, but more than likely, these guys are who we were preparing for this coming year with.  

 

Which is also why I don’t expect any big splash at DE.  We have 3 guys in the first 2 rounds who are here to take over as our older DE’s rotate out.  And Groot is 100% starting again next year after his promising first season.  
 

I really don’t anticipate another DE in the draft in first 2 rounds either this year.  

[KOKBILLS]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Besides:  We were the better team Sunday, won the game, and then gave it away over a miscommunication error between our ST Coordinator and Bass.  And that was WITHOUT our best defensive player in Tre, who would have been much more impactful than a different DE that got like one more sack.  

 

 

There was no bigger factor on D last Sunday than Tre being out...We all knew KC would be the ultimate test without Tre...

 

It sucks...But it is what it is...

[Fred Slacks]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Except you are referring to me and that’s NOT what I said.  That’s how you took it, but that’s not what I said.

 

What I actually said is stop over reacting to an elite player playing elite.  You can’t mortgage your future over one game, but if you guys were the GM you would do just that in response to the best player in the NFL playing out of his mind Sunday.  Our last rushers were just fine when we played them and beat hen in the regular season. 
 

You seem to think magically a different player makes another tackle or two, but there is literally no evidence to your assumptions.  And you want to add one “game wrecker” while the Chiefs had three and didn’t slow us down despite us having the worse OL.  So sorry, this “game wrecker” cure all theory is not something I am buying.

 

You think the Chiefs now are gonna go add a fourth game wrecker pass rusher now because Allen popped off?  No. 
 

Reactive personnel decisions like that are what kills franchises futures.  This isn’t Madden.  

Besides:  We were the better team Sunday, won the game, and then gave it away over a miscommunication error between our ST Coordinator and Bass.  And that was WITHOUT our best defensive player in Tre, who would have been much more impactful than a different DE that got like one more sack.  Fans tend to grossly over value sack statistics.
 

So let’s get better where we really need to.  More speed in the secondary, get Tre White back at full strength, bolster the OL and interior DL.  
 

We were already better than them as is, now do those things and we will get past them decisively. 

 

I’m not overreacting. I agree we were the better team and should have won. 
 

I also don’t think one game should change the entire game plan. Where you see a strength I suppose I see it as weakness. I think our secondary played great considering. I think DE is still a higher priority than Corner. That’s my opinion but I realize yours is different. 
 

I don’t want a DE that rushes upfield only to give up running lanes. I want someone either strong enough or fast enough to close the pocket and still react to a mobile QB who tries to escape like Josh Allen and Mahomes. They do exist and I believe they would impact our team significantly more than a faster CB. 
 

That being said I wouldn’t object to better talent at CB either. I do think OL can and should be addressed. Also interior DL. TE should still be a priority as we can’t count on Knox being healthy. I even want more talent at WR. But more than any of that I want a stud DE. There’s no guarantees that any of the drafted DE’s ever turn out. Hopefully they do but there’s no guarantee. 
 

To clarify I’ve thought this all season. Just because our pass rush looked good vs a Dolphins or Jets team does not mean it will hold up well in the playoffs. Vs Chiefs or other playoff caliber teams. 
 

yes there’s no guarantees that what I want makes a difference. But I’m a game like Sunday we are looking to change a couple plays, steal a possession, or force an incomplete on one more third down. Yes I do believe a stud DE can do just that. Next year it might not be the Chiefs. It might be the Bengals or Chargers. There are some great QB’s and we need to effect them better than we currently do. Especially in the playoffs where we hope to be spending many more Januarys watching the Bills play. 
 

 

[SCBills]

8 minutes ago, KOKBILLS said:

 

There was no bigger factor on D last Sunday than Tre being out...We all knew KC would be the ultimate test without Tre...

 

It sucks...But it is what it is...

 

Yea, I feel like I watched a different game than some here, because I didn't come away thinking our DL was an issue.  I came away thinking that our defensive philosophy was to hide Dane and Levi as much as possible.  

 

As much as I don't want to.. Drafting a CB in RD1 to go opposite a healthy Tre White in the Playoffs next year is probably the best way to remedy what we saw from the Defense on Sunday. 

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Solomon Grundy said:

I read somewhere that Chicago can get out of his contract this year if they want to

https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/sports/nbcsports/khalil-macks-season-ending-injury-raises-questions-about-bears-future/2689652/?amp

Last 3 seasons:

 

Mario Addison:  21.5 sacks

Khalil Mack:  23.5 sacks

 

Since Mack didn’t finish 2021, the last 2 full seasons for both players 2019 + 2020:

 

Mario:  14.5 sacks

Mack:  17 sacks

 

Mack is the better player, but he hasn’t had a double digit sack season since 2018 and is coming off season ending injury and past 30 now.
 

And despite being seen as one of the best, he has barely outperformed Addison despite Addison being over 2 years older. 
 

So I am not seeing how he makes us better enough to make sense using both draft capital and $17.5 million in cap space on him.

 

Use the picks on holes and cap space to improve weaker areas of the roster.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[st pete gogolak]

21 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Last 3 seasons:

 

Mario Addison:  21.5 sacks

Khalil Mack:  23.5 sacks

 

Since Mack didn’t finish 2021, the last 2 full seasons for both players 2019 + 2020:

 

Mario:  14.5 sacks

Mack:  17 sacks

 

Mack is the better player, but he hasn’t had a double digit sack season since 2018 and is coming off season ending injury.  
 

And despite being seen as one of the best, he has barely outperformed Addison despite Addison being over 2 years older. 
 

So I am not seeing how he makes us better enough to make sense using both draft capital and $17.5 million in cap space on him.

 

Use the picks on holes and cap space to improve weaker areas of the roster.

 

 

 

 

Congratulations!  You're the first person to put Addison and Mack in the same sentence!

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said:

Congratulations!  You're the first person to put Addison and Mack in the same sentence!

Ridiculous reply.  
 

Congratulations on focusing on a name and not actual on field production.  

[LABILLBACKER]

I don't have a problem drafting a DE every year, just don't do it in the first 2 rounds this year. Get your CB2 @ 25 and maybe a speed wr in the 2nd. Maybe we can land a  Max Crosby type later on?

[Jauronimo]

19 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

Please point out when an edge rusher "changed a game."

 

They don't and it's why blowing two first round picks on one would be foolish.

 

 

Von Miller basically won Denver a Super Bowl.

 

Lawrence Taylor literally changed the game of football with the way he was taking QBs out of the game.  Offensive lineman were just replaceable cogs until LT showed the league how much a dominant pass rusher could change the game.

 

This might be the worst take of the week which is truly an accomplishment.  

 

[nedboy7]

I doubt they invest more into edge rusher. Let’s see how the rookies develop.  

[Nextmanup]

3 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

I doubt they invest more into edge rusher. Let’s see how the rookies develop.  

They aren't going anywhere.  But I think the average fan places too much importance on the DL anyway.

 

I'd rather have an army of DBs that can cover.  It's a better way of shutting down a passing game.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, CountDorkula said:

i'm with ya 10000% on this.

I don't think Beane is. He basically said he would draft a DE in every round if he could and that he believes that is how you build a team and that is his philosophy.

 

Id expect another significant investment in the DE position this year, which frankly makes me angry. 

 

 I think you're giving a substantially incorrect impression of what Beane said.  What you wrote reads as though Beane said drafting a DE in every round is how he believes you build a team and his philosophy

 

What Beane actually said:

Quote

“I like where we’re at [on the defensive line] and I like where we’re headed,” he said. “I’m always going to put resources in the front. That’s just how I believe it should be built. Don’t ever be shocked if you see us trying to add there, free agency or the draft at any point.”

 

From a purely numbers POV, with Harrison Phillips, Vernon Butler, Mario Addison, Jerry Hughes, Justin Zimmer (IR) and Efe Obada all pending free agents, it's a no brainer that Beane has to do something.  Even if he re-signs Phillips, Zimmer, and Hughes, he would still need at least 1 or 2 additional guys to "hedge his bets" that Zimmer might not be full go at the start of the season, and to understudy Hughes/backstop us against the outcome of Epenesa and Basham not taking needed steps.

 

9 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

They aren't going anywhere.  But I think the average fan places too much importance on the DL anyway.

 

I'd rather have an army of DBs that can cover.  It's a better way of shutting down a passing game.

 

This is just silly.  No DBs can cover forever, especially against a mobile QB who can extend plays.  That's why teams adopt the strategy of covering just long enough while keeping the QB on the move/trying to sack him.

[CountDorkula]

1 hour ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Ridiculous reply.  
 

Congratulations on focusing on a name and not actual on field production.  

This is where I am at. They hear Khalil Mack and its instantly he's a beast.

 

He's still probably good yes, but as a whole his game is edging towards a cliff, and honestly id be very skeptical of investing big on a 30+ year old whos numbers are declining and is coming back from a pretty significant injury.

[JROC INTEL]

I’m no expert, but I think cb and linebacker are much greater needs. Like people have said, we have already invested a ton into our line. A pass rushing LB would be ideal. We can’t go another season without more LB and CB depth. 

[Alphadawg7]

Just now, CountDorkula said:

This is where I am at. They hear Khalil Mack and its instantly he's a beast.

 

He's still probably good yes, but as a whole his game is edging towards a cliff, and honestly id be very skeptical of investing big on a 30+ year old whos numbers are declining and is coming back from a pretty significant injury.

 

Agreed...I guarantee that most the people begging for Mack don't realize he hasn't had double digits sacks in 3 years.  Yes, he is going to be an upgrade, but how much of an upgrade at this stage of his career is questionable given he is over 30 and coming off that injury.  Is it enough to warrant weakening our selves else where through the cost to acquire and pay him? 

 

Buffalo was 5th in NFL in QB Pressures, 10th in Sacks.  Its not like its our weakest part of our team, and thats with us playing a bend but don't break style and not blitzing that much (we were middle of the pack in Blitz %).  Just having Tre White against KC likely changes the outcome...not to mention simply not having a miscommunication on the final KO of regulation changes the outcome.  

 

And we have youth we have been developing to take over a more prominent role at that position anyway that cost a fraction of what Macks $17.5M would cost us, not to mention the trade compensation.  

 

I say, let our young guys play and go bolster the OL, CB depth, and DT positions with our draft assets and cap space as the top 3 priorities.  

[GunnerBill]

If the Bears want to practically give Mack away as a cap dump I'll take him. If they want prime assets to take on that contract, no thanks. 

 

Cam Jordan as a cap casualty on a below market value ring chasing contract is where my eyes are focused. 

 

Remember a year ago a lot of people wanted JJ Watt. I took a lot of heat for being lukewarm on that possibility. He played only 7 games and logged only 1 sack. We dodged a bullet.