Are we over-reacting to the 13 seconds?

[2003Contenders]

First, I will say the same thing about this game that I said 31 years ago when "wide right" happened and 22 years ago with the MCM happened: no game is ever defined by a single play -- even if that single play did make a significant difference in the outcome of the game. Although the infamous 13 seconds were comprised of 3 plays (4 if we count the kickoff), the same concept applies.

 

That is, there were a bevy of other things that happened earlier in the game that in their totality were actually at least as significant as what happened with those 13 seconds:

 

-- What if the defense actually tackled Hardman -- or simply shoved him out of bounds, rather than giving up a long TD run?

-- What if Daboll had not had brain farts on back-to-back series in the 2nd quarter when the Bills were at midfield -- and for whatever reason decided to take the ball out of Josh's hands?

-- What if Jackson does not idiotically grab the receiver's jersey on a play where his violation had no impact? Instead of the Chiefs settling for a FGA, they wound up scoring a TD a few plays later thanks to Jackson's penalty that came on 3rd down.

-- What if Davis (who, I know, had a career-defining day) manages to get his feet down on that 3rd down play in the 2nd half?

-- What if T. Jones, who is supposed to be a veteran on special teams (the only reason he is even on the roster) does not make the out-of-bounds mistake on the punt? Instead of a re-punt, where Hill almost ran it all the way back, the Chiefs would have been pushed much farther back?

-- What if anyone on defense could have made a tackle to prevent Hill from taking a short crossing pattern catch to the house?

-- Finally, let's not forget that those 13 seconds led the Chiefs to TIE the game, not win it. The defense had an opportunity in overtime to keep the Chiefs out of the endzone and failed to do it.

 

This reminds me of the series that ESPN used to have. "5 Reasons Why..." There are a plethora of them for this game that lasted well over 60 minutes to blame everything on what happened in those 13 seconds.

 

As for those 13 seconds...

 

The kick (to squib, kick high and short or boom through the endzone) debate will likely go on forever. We even have a conspiracy theory in place that suggests that McD wanted them to squib it -- but Bass never got the message. Personally I would have done the high/short kick (inside the 10) that seemed to work well most of the season, but I can see arguments for kicking it through the endzone too.

 

The real problem was the poor coverage by the defense on those final 2 plays. They made it WAY too easy for the Chiefs to get the distance they needed. It did not even take great plays from Mahomes and his receivers to get into FG range. Mac Jones could have done what he did! I think that is the part that stings for me.  It was almost like they were playing to prevent a TD rather than prevent the Chiefs from getting into FG range.

 

[bigduke6]

not going to read this entire thread,  responding to the OPs original question.    no,  emphatic no,   we are not overreacting to the 13 seconds.   in no way shape or form should any team be allowed to move the ball 40+ yards in that short amount of time for a chance to win short of a hail mary or some stupid gadget play that they get extremely lucky on.

 

the kickoff should have been squibbed to take at least 5 sec off the clock

prevent defense should not have been used.

 

our coaching staff played scared at the end,  and i understand that,  Chefs O is definitely scary.

rush 3,  flood the short zones if the d is so gassed.   make Mahomes either run quick and then swarm too him,  or make him dance around wasting time trying to find a passcatcher.

 

make them earn those yards ,  dont just hand it too them.

 

coaches better learn from this monumental choke job,  if they dont,  they wont be employed anymore.

 

to give that game up in 13 seconds is an all time embarrassing feat.   its worse than losing 4 straight SBs imo.

its the kind of fail that sticks with a team.   they all better work their asses off to remove that stink before next season.

 

 

Edited January 27, 2022 by bigduke6

[billsfan1959]

2 hours ago, MPT said:

 

You really don't see the difference between the Chiefs' players making spectacular plays despite NE covering them well and the Chiefs' players making routine catches because the Bills didn't cover them at all?

 

In the Pats game it took the Chiefs 16 seconds to run those two plays because the Patriots made it difficult for them. If we had done the same thing, they would have run out of time. Not to mention that the Bills' coaching staff should have been extra prepared for this moment specifically because the Chiefs had already done this against the Patriots.

 

I certainly can see the difference in the manner in which each was accomplished. BTW, in the Pats game it actually took KC less than 16 seconds to move 48 yards in 2 plays because they wasted 2-3 seconds after the 1st play to call a time out. Regardless, my original response was to someone saying giving up 40-50 yards in 13 seconds should never happen, when a similar situation happened just 3 years ago.

 

My subsequent point was that it doesn't matter how the Chiefs got a field goal. It could have happened the same way they did it against the Pats, or any other way, and the posters having irrational meltdowns would have reacted in exactly the same way.

[Billsfan1972]

30 minutes ago, bigduke6 said:

not going to read this entire thread,  responding to the OPs original question.    no,  emphatic no,   we are not overreacting to the 13 seconds.   in no way shape or form should any team be allowed to move the ball 40+ yards in that short amount of time for a chance to win short of a hail mary or some stupid gadget play that they get extremely lucky on.

 

the kickoff should have been squibbed to take at least 5 sec off the clock

prevent defense should not have been used.

 

our coaching staff played scared at the end,  and i understand that,  Chefs O is definitely scary.

rush 3,  flood the short zones if the d is so gassed.   make Mahomes either run quick and then swarm too him,  or make him dance around wasting time trying to find a passcatcher.

 

make them earn those yards ,  dont just hand it too them.

 

coaches better learn from this monumental choke job,  if they dont,  they wont be employed anymore.

 

to give that game up in 13 seconds is an all time embarrassing feat.   its worse than losing 4 straight SBs imo.

its the kind of fail that sticks with a team.   they all better work their asses off to remove that stink before next season.

 

 

Btw just turned on ESPN that no team has ever done this before in 13 seconds. So please stop making excuses for the Bills coaches.

32 minutes ago, 2003Contenders said:

First, I will say the same thing about this game that I said 31 years ago when "wide right" happened and 22 years ago with the MCM happened: no game is ever defined by a single play -- even if that single play did make a significant difference in the outcome of the game. Although the infamous 13 seconds were comprised of 3 plays (4 if we count the kickoff), the same concept applies.

 

That is, there were a bevy of other things that happened earlier in the game that in their totality were actually at least as significant as what happened with those 13 seconds:

 

-- What if the defense actually tackled Hardman -- or simply shoved him out of bounds, rather than giving up a long TD run?

-- What if Daboll had not had brain farts on back-to-back series in the 2nd quarter when the Bills were at midfield -- and for whatever reason decided to take the ball out of Josh's hands?

-- What if Jackson does not idiotically grab the receiver's jersey on a play where his violation had no impact? Instead of the Chiefs settling for a FGA, they wound up scoring a TD a few plays later thanks to Jackson's penalty that came on 3rd down.

-- What if Davis (who, I know, had a career-defining day) manages to get his feet down on that 3rd down play in the 2nd half?

-- What if T. Jones, who is supposed to be a veteran on special teams (the only reason he is even on the roster) does not make the out-of-bounds mistake on the punt? Instead of a re-punt, where Hill almost ran it all the way back, the Chiefs would have been pushed much farther back?

-- What if anyone on defense could have made a tackle to prevent Hill from taking a short crossing pattern catch to the house?

-- Finally, let's not forget that those 13 seconds led the Chiefs to TIE the game, not win it. The defense had an opportunity in overtime to keep the Chiefs out of the endzone and failed to do it.

 

This reminds me of the series that ESPN used to have. "5 Reasons Why..." There are a plethora of them for this game that lasted well over 60 minutes to blame everything on what happened in those 13 seconds.

 

As for those 13 seconds...

 

The kick (to squib, kick high and short or boom through the endzone) debate will likely go on forever. We even have a conspiracy theory in place that suggests that McD wanted them to squib it -- but Bass never got the message. Personally I would have done the high/short kick (inside the 10) that seemed to work well most of the season, but I can see arguments for kicking it through the endzone too.

 

The real problem was the poor coverage by the defense on those final 2 plays. They made it WAY too easy for the Chiefs to get the distance they needed. It did not even take great plays from Mahomes and his receivers to get into FG range. Mac Jones could have done what he did! I think that is the part that stings for me.  It was almost like they were playing to prevent a TD rather than prevent the Chiefs from getting into FG range.

 

Again this is what we should have been talking about after a loss though some of them are grasping at straws. Things happened throughout the game however the last 13 seconds is all that should be talked about and rightfully so.

[bigduke6]

1 minute ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Btw just turned on ESPN that no team has ever done this before in 13 seconds. So please stop making excuses for the Bills coaches.

did i make excuses for them?  

Edited January 27, 2022 by bigduke6

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, bigduke6 said:

did i make excuses for them?

Oops just having fun and using your thread. Of course you made no excuses because there's no excuses to be made.

[SoCal Deek]

We can all replay it over and over and over again but here’s the game in a nutshell: 

 

End of the first half…tie game

End of regulation…tie game

Coin flip….Bills lose

 

That's pretty much it. 

[John from Riverside]

No

[billsfan1959]

4 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Btw just turned on ESPN that no team has ever done this before in 13 seconds. So please stop making excuses for the Bills coaches.

Again this is what we should have been talking about after a loss though some of them are grasping at straws. Things happened throughout the game however the last 13 seconds is all that should be talked about and rightfully so.

 

No, it is all you want to dwell on. It is not all that should be talked about. 

[Heitz]

6 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Btw just turned on ESPN that no team has ever done this before in 13 seconds.

 

I'm sorry, no team has ever gotten into FG range, down 13 seconds to tie a game?  How can that be possible?  

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, Heitz said:

 

I'm sorry, no team has ever gotten into FG range, down 13 seconds to tie a game?  How can that be possible?  

Because McD wasn't the coach?🤣

[billsfan714]

I will say this, it was the most incompetent and gutless coaching you will ever see.   

Incompetent---didnt communicate kicking it before the goalline whether squid or a popup kickoff.    Didnt do the holding on first down, you can do it once.  McD said they considered it, I dont believe it. then why didnt you do it.   No line chuck on Kelce at the snap.  Nope lets let him run free

Gutless-McD went into a deep prevent defense when the Chiefs only needed 30 yards to be into Butkers range with 2 timeouts in hand.  He coached scared, and practically guaranteed they would get the FG.  Edmunds 15 yards off the line, deep safety 30 yards off the ball and going backwards at the snap.

 

Both top 2 seeds knocked out in the NFC, the number 1 seed in the AFC was gone and you were playing the no. 2 seed.   I said it before and I will say it again, the only thing that makes sense to me is he and Frazier both had mini-strokes after Gabes TD and they thought the Chiefs needed a TD.

 

It was like here Andy, take it.

Edited January 27, 2022 by billsfan714

[TheyCallMeAndy]

NO ONE!?

 

Really!? NO ONE?!

 

FINE.

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

 

No, it is all you want to dwell on. It is not all that should be talked about. 

What should we talk about?  Never ever had happened before, but McD did it.

[billsfan1959]

40 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

What should we talk about?  Never ever had happened before, but McD did it.

 

I get the frustration over the loss and I'm not criticizing, as everyone handles disappointment, frustration, etc. differently. I just don't understand hanging on to negative emotion. It isn't healthy and it won't change anything.

 

I have watched the game twice since last Sunday and intentionally focused on everything positive in that game. There were a lot of good things. Those are the things I would rather talk about. I would rather focus on what we might do in free agency and the draft, and start looking forward to next year. 

 

I feel the future of this team looks pretty good and I am actually feeling very positive right now.

 

Cheers

[Poleshifter]

Are we over-reacting? No and Hell no!

 

A squib kick ticks off a few precious seconds, very important seconds in this case.

 

Now we hear the squib order did not reach Bass? Did Farwell screw up the transmission of the message? Someone has to take responsibility for this massive screw-up.

 

A golden opportunity - with Brady and Rodgers out of the picture - to win a super bowl. Pissed off is not over-reacting.

[MasterStrategist]

4 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Yes.  Massive over reaction.  Things like:

• Fire McD - So stupid its barely worth mentioning.
• Fire Beane - Even dumber.
• Fire Farwell - Also dumb, we had one of the best ST units in the NFL this year.
• Do whatever it takes to get an elite DE - Our defensive pressure was not why we lost to KC, we got plenty of pressure on Mahomes but he was just on another level Sunday (like Allen) where it didn't matter, he was too elusive.  We had the same amount of Sacks as KC did, and yet they have three high end pass rushers on their team.  
  • And we were 5th in the NFL in defensive pressure and 10th in sacks.  So its foolish to now kill the cap and invest more draft assets again into the same position we just used 3 picks on in the first 2 rounds the last 2 years.  Let the young guys play and use those draft picks and whatever cap space we having on bolstering weaker areas like OL, CB Depth, and DT.  If our young guys are not getting the job done this year, then we know it may need to be addressed again the following offseason.
  • But you have to allow your guys time to develop, this instant gratification nonsense that fans have is ridiculous.  

The most ridiculous are the cries to fire McD, Beane, or Farwell.  As if making our team worse somehow makes us better just to satisfy some blood lust for someones head after the loss is ridiculous concept.   Hard to take anyone serious who feels like they are the weak link here.  Some fans just have this "I need blood" mentality when something doesn't go right, but all that does is LOWER our odds in 2022 to make another run because its VERY hard to find guys on the level of McD and Beane and much more likely to be not only a downgrade, but a significant one.  

 

Not to mention, we are already likely losing Daboll and Frazier, to have a full staff turnover right now would be beyond stupid.  

 

Yes, there seems there was a mistake made, not clear where, but a call for a squib quick was made and it didn't get to Bass.  But the players know Bass wasn't in the huddle and warming up, they should make sure he knows the call when he enters the game.  And I assure you that will be forever the case from here on out by both the coaches and teammates.  

 

But to blow up the staff that built us QUICKLY into a perennial SB contender over it is just absurd.  And to now over react

Agree with some and don't agree with some of this.

 

Agree: overreacting about firing McD, Beane, and Farwell.

 

Disagree: Frazier isnt mentioned, but if he was calling the defense at the end, then he should be shown the door.  This wasnt about not squibbimg the kickoff, KC could have taken that back for 6 as well.  It came down to letting KC drive 44 yards in less than 10 seconds.  How do we not align with press coverage, rush just 2 or 3, and bring extra DBs onto the field?  This was just as poor coaching as the Jets playjng covwr 0 on a hailmary against the Raiders last season.  Frazier wont be let go, I know that, but man he just lost a TON of trust IMO.

 

Also disagree about our pass rusher situation.  Maybe it's a different debate, but I'm tired of the 2-3 B grade players we continue to dump money into (ie:  Butler, Addison, Trent before. list goes on).  Would rather we put that money into a single difference maker.  Not many teams advance to the superbowl without a stud on their dline to wreak havoc.  

 

Hopefully we see one of young DEs flourish next season, but we played a lot of backup QBs and weather impacting why our defense ended with a top ranking...eye test looked like a 10th-15th ranked defense without consistent pass rush.

[BADOLBILZ]

On 1/26/2022 at 2:56 PM, cv05 said:

• So I've heard the win probability thrown around that at the 13 second mark the chiefs had a 5%, 1 in 20, chance to win (according to ESPN)
• Assuming the game goes to overtime, before the coin flip, each team has a 50% chance to win (1 in 2)
• Ignoring the case where the chiefs win with a TD in regulation, a tie had a probability of about 10% ( (1/2)x(Tie Probability)= 1/20) 

 

The question - is getting upset about a 10% likely scenario (chiefs tie it in 13 seconds) really fair? It rains in LA 1 in 10 days 🤷‍♂️. Also, does the probability from ESPN (1 in 20) account for the state of the teams at that moment? Mahomes and Allen were having their way with tired defenses - maybe the likelihood of gaining ~40-45 yards in 12 seconds with 3 timeouts was actually pretty good, even better than 10%. I don't know - I think looking at it this way at least makes me feel a bit better.

 

I will out myself as being completely irrational over the last few days. I completely disagree with the defensive strategy, and was (to a lessor extent) against what happened with the kick. I have been just about as upset with McDermott as anyone. I had never been a huge fan (attributed team success to Allen, and McDermott more just getting in the way). But maybe we were up against more than we realized at that 13 second mark. I don't know - food for thought. 

 

 

Yes........FAR too much is being made of it.

 

The team that played better for the majority of the game won...........even though they missed two kicks in the first half.

 

Almost stole one..........got another lesson in playing the Chiefs though...........all-gas-no-brakes is how you gotta' play on offense.    They tried to get out of a shootout in the middle of the game and that backfired.

 

Would have been awesome to win............would have gladly taken it..........but they didn't "deserve" it.     

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Yes........FAR too much is being made of it.

 

The team that played better for the majority of the game won...........even though they missed two kicks in the first half.

 

Almost stole one..........got another lesson in playing the Chiefs though...........all-gas-no-brakes is how you gotta' play on offense.    They tried to get out of a shootout in the middle of the game and that backfired.

 

Would have been awesome to win............would have gladly taken it..........but they didn't "deserve" it.     

“They” didn’t.  Josh and Gabe most certainly did.  

[Alphadawg7]

40 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said:

Agree with some and don't agree with some of this.

 

Agree: overreacting about firing McD, Beane, and Farwell.

 

Disagree: Frazier isnt mentioned, but if he was calling the defense at the end, then he should be shown the door.  This wasnt about not squibbimg the kickoff, KC could have taken that back for 6 as well.  It came down to letting KC drive 44 yards in less than 10 seconds.  How do we not align with press coverage, rush just 2 or 3, and bring extra DBs onto the field?  This was just as poor coaching as the Jets playjng covwr 0 on a hailmary against the Raiders last season.  Frazier wont be let go, I know that, but man he just lost a TON of trust IMO.

 

Also disagree about our pass rusher situation.  Maybe it's a different debate, but I'm tired of the 2-3 B grade players we continue to dump money into (ie:  Butler, Addison, Trent before. list goes on).  Would rather we put that money into a single difference maker.  Not many teams advance to the superbowl without a stud on their dline to wreak havoc.  

 

Hopefully we see one of young DEs flourish next season, but we played a lot of backup QBs and weather impacting why our defense ended with a top ranking...eye test looked like a 10th-15th ranked defense without consistent pass rush.

 

I dont really disagree with what your counter points that are here.  Just more to add...I did not add Frazier to the list of what is over the top because criticism about him isn't over the top.  The defensive calls he had during that 13 seconds are highly questionable.  And he is also likely leaving it seems, so firing him isn't even an option.

 

As far as the DE goes, I don't think Addison and Hughes are B grade DE's.  They dont get as much credit as they deserve.  We were 5th in the NFL at pressuring the QB and did a lot of that on Mahomes too.  We were 10th in sacks too.  Addison sack totals are not much lower than Khalil Macks even (mentioning him as he has been a popular name thrown around to bring in) the past few seasons.  Are they Elite guys?  No, but they are pretty good players and the young guys showed some promise too.

 

So for me, I agree, its always nice to have that TJ Watt guy...but they don't grow on trees and they are not made available usually.  So you have to draft them, and we have used 3 picks at the DE position the last 2 years in the first 2 rounds, so now is the time to let them play and keep growing.  Look at Davis...we held him behind Sanders most the year and wasn't until Sanders got hurt did Davis get a shot to make a bigger impact and that just kept growing down the stretch.  

 

Also have to keep in mind its not easy to field a good overall team that includes an elite pass rusher and elite QB because those two positions (when young and elite) can eat such a big part of the cap up.  And now Josh is extended, and that contract is going to start making it harder to field balanced rosters if we have to also dump a lot of  money into one position like DE too.  So its in our best interest to draft and grow our own.  

Edited January 28, 2022 by Alphadawg7