We took our best 2 defenders out of the game on last 2 plays. It was 11 vs 5.. here's the strategy that would have worked

[Ethan in Cleveland]

2 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

This is why you need a new defensive cordinator,  we need someone smart enough to play chess with the top QB'S in this league and crunch time situations like Sunday.  When have we seen Frazier come up with some complex innovative plan to stop a team or elite QB?

 

I just hope Bills are waiting for all HC positions to be filled before announcing they are moving on from this guy.  This is one way the Bills can improve for next season beyond free agency and draft.  Frazier is not playoff material defensive cordinator,  as I said I guarantee no team hires him as a HC

If this was all on Frazier then McDermott is equally culpable.  They called timeouts before both plays.  He had plenty of time to intervene.  The buck stops with McDermott.  He cost us a SB run.  He choked.  He let us all down.  And we are stuck with him in 2022.  

[Niagara Dude]

1 hour ago, TheFunPolice said:

Poyer and Hyde.. our best 2 defenders, were taken out of position to have any effect on the last 2 plays. They basically watched from 40 yards away. 

 

We also took 4 D linemen out of the play by having them do close to nothing. 

 

The game was decided on that 1st and 10 with 13 seconds. You cause issues there and they have half the time on the next play and not much to show for it. Now it's desperation heave time. 

 

Here's what I would do: ball is snapped and all 4 DL run backwards 10-15 yards. Nobody rushes at all. Normally a bad idea, but there are no super deep routes. 

 

What does Mahomes do? Does he run? tick..tick..tick 13, 12, 11, 10...

 

Fine! go ahead. 9, 8, 7 ,6,5 and we tackle you at the 35-40. 

 

Meanwhile, what do the OL do? They can't run downfield or he cannot pass. So they stand there doing nothing, not sure what to do. Probably someone goes go downfield.

 

It totally throws the offense off. That's not supposed to happen. It's also a non-hail mary play so the WR aren't running super deep routes, so there's really no danger of letting Mahomes just stand there for 5 seconds or 6 seconds to find the open man. The more time it takes, the better. 

Bravo... even dropping 3 of the 4 would work.  When you watch the replay,   both passes are with no coverage at player is running a straight line taking the least amount of secs possible. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Ramza86 said:

I personally thought we should be rushing 2 guys and drop everyone back.

 

I like the jam better now that i think about it lol.

 

This is exactly right - In my opinion. I broke down a similar concept in this thread below:

 

 

[BillsFan3434]

Hear me out. We convince Josh to have a kid so he is ready to take over when Josh retires. A good 40 years at having a shot at the SB.

[Niagara Dude]

Just now, Ethan in Portland said:

If this was all on Frazier then McDermott is equally culpable.  They called timeouts before both plays.  He had plenty of time to intervene.  The buck stops with McDermott.  He cost us a SB run.  He choked.  He let us all down.  And we are stuck with him in 2022.  

No argument from me,  I am sure Sean had a lot to do with it.  This is why he started talking about all the wins they have had since he arrived in his presser.

 

You also know they are not firing Sean,  so I would settle with a new more innovative cordinator who like Dabol thinks on playing to win.  Frazier is like more like Sean and coaches and call plays not to lose.

 

I have seen enough,  3 straight years we give up leads and lose playoff games

[All_Pro_Bills]

13 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

This is why you need a new defensive cordinator,  we need someone smart enough to play chess with the top QB'S in this league and crunch time situations like Sunday.  When have we seen Frazier come up with some complex innovative plan to stop a team or elite QB?

 

I just hope Bills are waiting for all HC positions to be filled before announcing they are moving on from this guy.  This is one way the Bills can improve for next season beyond free agency and draft.  Frazier is not playoff material defensive cordinator,  as I said I guarantee no team hires him as a HC

I can't put all the blame on Frazier because after seeing it not work on the first play McDermott could have overruled his DC and change up something on the second play.  But all he did was call a time out prior to the snap and line up the defense in the same formation.  I'm resigned to the idea we're probably never going to get a legitimate explanation from anyone exactly what the thought process was with the coaching staff on that 13 second series.  Other than an excuse it was an "execution" issue which implies they either believe the strategy was sound or they just aren't going to admit they got it wrong.  That's what bothers me more than anything.  Not that they got it wrong but they won't say they got it wrong.  Even though everyone knows they got it wrong.  Its accountability.  Coaches and management demand accountability from players.  And they should expect nothing less from themselves.  Just admit the set up was wrong, you got it wrong, you'll fix it, and let's move forward. 

Otherwise, what was the plan?  To let them get into FG range in two quick plays and hope their otherwise dependable FG kicker was going to miss for the 2nd time in the game?

[TheFunPolice]

20 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

Bravo... even dropping 3 of the 4 would work.  When you watch the replay,   both passes are with no coverage at player is running a straight line taking the least amount of secs possible. 

 

AND now you're playing 11 D vs 6 O (5 O really).

 

All 5 OL are just standing there confused trying not to run too far downfield and end up drawing a flag. Mahomes had a plan but now he has to decide in a blink if he just runs or starts to tell his WR to go deeper, all while that precious clock is ticking....

 

Point is you put pressure on the offense to figure something out AND not screw up (OL). And you play 11 vs 5. 

 

Instead, we took 6 of our players (4DL and Poyer and Hyde) out of the picture. 

 

Of course this would only work in a scenario like we saw. Normally you'd get eaten up by it, as the QB would just take off. But that's perfect when the clock is a factor and plays need to happen lightning quick. 

22 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Dropping 4 defensive lineman is putting them into positions that they are not equipped for.

 

You might as well skip the 4 linemen and go 8 DB, 3 LB.

 

True but the element of surprise needs to be there, or KC will have a call for it. 

 

I wouldn't have my big DT in there. 3-4 fastest DL or just line up with 3 DL. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[ngbills]

24 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Dropping 4 defensive lineman is putting them into positions that they are not equipped for.

 

You might as well skip the 4 linemen and go 8 DB, 3 LB.

Agreed. Do that and you could even get creative and send a CB blitz because you still have numbers without 4 DL. 

 

Instead we did this? Line up deep - rush the front 4 and drop everyone leaving the middle wide open for 25 easy yards. 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by ngbills

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Ramza86 said:

At 1st i thought....why do we have 4 pass rushers and two LBs out there on the 1st play....

 

2nd play......why the eff do we STILL have 4 pass rushers and two LBs out there?

 

After the game obviously...i was like...wtf man...we couldnt jam kelce or hill with the ends?

Because in high leverage situations Sean McDermott wets his pants. We saw it in Houston. We saw it last year. Hell we saw Marv do it 4 straight times. It's not all on the players. Coaching matters. An intelligent defensive coach rushed 2 or 3 because he knows Mahomes has to get rid of it Immediately. So the OP is right. Our all pro safeties are playing on the warning track. And our front 4 are basically rendered useless. It's 5 on 5.

[TheFunPolice]

7 minutes ago, ngbills said:

Agreed. Do that and you could even get creative and send a CB blitz because you still have numbers without 4 DL. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That pre-snap photo says it all. Chiefs were guaranteed the 40. But if our DL just backpedaled 5-10 yards  at the snap there's people all over the place in that currently empty space. 

 

Chiefs would have just discussed this in detail: quick hitter, get some yards, go down. Don't run and burn all the clock when you catch it!

 

Suddenly Mahomes takes the snap and sees the middle clogged and there's no easy throw. He probably tries to zing it in there but maybe someone gets in the way of the route or knocks the ball down. It would be a "WTF?" moment for him and you never know how he reacts. 

 

Maybe an OL takes off downfield after the DL or just loses his sense of the line of scrimmage in the confusion and the heat of the moment, making a pass impossible. Illegal man downfield, 5 yard penalty, plus burned time.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[ngbills]

3 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

That pre-snap photo says it all. Chiefs were guaranteed the 40. But if our DL just backpedaled 5-10 yards  at the snap there's people all over the place in that currently empty space. 

Whats worse is we called a TO right before this to have extra time to think about it. And this is what they did. 

[TheFunPolice]

Just now, ngbills said:

Whats worse is we called a TO right before this to have extra time to think about it. And this is what they did. 

 

Yup!

 

I mean zero resistance at all. Poyer or Hyde could have manned up on Kelce and at least made it a contested play. 

 

I think they panicked after the kickoff didn't go as planned. They had this D drawn up (and it WOULD have been perfect with 7-8 seconds left) and just stuck with it anyway.

 

 

 

 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, TheFunPolice said:

True but the element of surprise needs to be there, or KC will have a call for it. 

 

I wouldn't have my big DT in there. 3-4 fastest DL or just line up with 3 DL. 

 

Kelce and the WR's are faster than every D-Linemen we have. Dropping them back would accomplish very little and would put them into posiitons that they are not equipped for.

 

There are 13 seconds left. There is no element of surprise here. Mahomes needs to get rid of the ball as soon as possible. 

[ngbills]

13 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

Kelce and the WR's are faster than every D-Linemen we have. Dropping them back would accomplish very little and would put them into posiitons that they are not equipped for.

 

There are 13 seconds left. There is no element of surprise here. Mahomes needs to get rid of the ball as soon as possible. 

Disagree. They still take up space. They immediately drop 5 yards and that takes away the quick pass. Dont think anyone is saying have them cover a guy man on man. Just take up a space. Rushing served no purpose. 

[Einstein]

3 hours ago, ngbills said:

Disagree. They still take up space. They immediately drop 5 yards and that takes away the quick pass. Dont think anyone is saying have them cover a guy man on man. Just take up a space. Rushing served no purpose. 

 

You're missing the point.

You can "take up space" with players that are more equipped to be in pass coverage. Like more DB's, or LB's. 

 

It makes no sense to drop 4 DL back when you could simply put 8 DB and 3 LB's on the field with 0 DL.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

Poyer and Hyde.. our best 2 defenders, were taken out of position to have any effect on the last 2 plays. They basically watched from 40 yards away. 

 

We also took 4 D linemen out of the play by having them do close to nothing. 

 

The game was decided on that 1st and 10 with 13 seconds. You cause issues there and they have half the time on the next play and not much to show for it. Now it's desperation heave time. 

 

Here's what I would do: ball is snapped and all 4 DL run backwards 10-15 yards. Nobody rushes at all. Normally a bad idea, but there are no super deep routes. 

 

What does Mahomes do? Does he run? tick..tick..tick 13, 12, 11, 10...

 

Fine! go ahead. 9, 8, 7 ,6,5 and we tackle you at the 35-40. 

 

Meanwhile, what do the OL do? They can't run downfield or he cannot pass. So they stand there doing nothing, not sure what to do. Probably someone goes go downfield.

 

It totally throws the offense off. That's not supposed to happen. It's also a non-hail mary play so the WR aren't running super deep routes, so there's really no danger of letting Mahomes just stand there for 5 seconds or 6 seconds to find the open man. The more time it takes, the better. 

 

I thought Hyde was out on the last 2 plays?  Or are you talking about the last 2 plays of regulation?