Looks like the call to squib may not have made it to Bass

[Reed83HOF]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Apologies if I was unclear, I wasn't referring to 6 blocks of Haack punts.

 

My intended point was that there were only 6 teams in the league who had any punts scored as blocks .....so while blocks do happen, most teams do not have punts blocked.

 

I don't think McKenzie was "thrust into the role".  He wanted it, he worked for it, he earned it against his competition.  And his competition included a guy who was a KR/PR in college, a RB who had returned kickoffs his rookie year, and a WR who is now returning kicks and punts for a team that is still in the playoffs (Brandon Powell, Rams).

 

So really, none of the 4 worked out, and since at least 1 of them can apparently get the job done for a championship contending team, is that the players or could there be an aspect of coaching?

 

 

For the blocked punt against the Steelers, they were keeping up with our offense just fine

No "selling out" that I saw.  Matekavich said that they'd practiced against that formation during the week, so it wasn't something they hadn't seen, either.

Sorry if I misunderstood, i haven't had a ton of time today at work to drive into much. 

 

I'm not sure an aspect of coaching ST is to help the guy be able to field the point or kickoff cleanly,  that is more of a core skill that should be developed through repetition and experience at the position.  Yes the coach can give pointers on how to position yourself and such, but there is that line of individual capability. It works that way in any line of work, as a leader or teaching someone on how to execute a task or a process, you look at your training process, you look at the people doing the training and eventually you get down to the skill level and ability.

 

Players still have to play and execute. If a WR who beat some competition out at camp and won a job and started dropping the ball all the time, would be placing blame on the WR coach? Players are part of that equation as well. Same goes for out punter who is awful.

 

Now an argument could be made that these players had no issues and were great and the techniques the coach taught them screwed them up. He joined us in 2019 and nothing in this role with his previous teams seem to stand out as we finally got rid of that guy and the teams improved tremendously after he left. Therefore, I'm scrutinizing the players more...

 

Btw, my point was that for the mess up at the end of the game, I find it hard to say it is a fireable offense for those 13 seconds.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Btw, my point was that for the mess up at the end of the game, I find it hard to say it is a fireable offense for those 13 seconds.

 

That seems to be where Beane and McDermott are

[Reed83HOF]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That seems to be where Beane and McDermott are

I would be calling for his head if there were lane issue and those issue piled on top of everything, but I just don't see that.

 

It's the same as calling for Frazier's or McD's head right now imo. 

 

We played a great team and if we play that game 10 times it might easily end up 5 and 5. If we had the ball first, we would have won and this would be a big deal like it is now. These teams are that close now...

 

I'm not in a blame appropriating mode either. It's find out what broke down and fix that process and it is also how do we take a step forward to close the gap talent wise a bit more, as well as stay ahead of the other teams behind us. 

 

[Shaw66]

22 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Cover 1.  7 minutes in.  Start about 6:30

Every time someone actually gets me to go to Cover 1, I wonder why I don't go there more often.    

 

That's an excellent discussion of the kickoff screw up and what the Bills should do about it.  

 

I will add one thing to their analysis of the play itself.   They show the end zone view of the kickoff, and they show that a few players turn look to the sideline, as if to ask "what just happened?"   And I guess there are some unattributed comments from players that it was called as a squib kick.  

 

Well, the other piece of evidence that proves that it was a squib kick is this:   When Bass kicks into the end zone, every time, six to eight Bills on the cover team run to the goal line.   Every time.   Not this time.   The ball was kicked into the end zone, and they stopped.  They stopped because the play was over, and something had happened that they recognized was not business as usual.  

 

I like the discussion of whether it's a "fireable offense."   I think that depends on what you said earlier - if the guy's overall performance has been subpar, this screwup by Farwell should be the last straw.   Otherwise, no.  

 

Turner called it something like a huge mistake.   It was a little mistake that may have had huge consequences.   That's very different.   A big mistake is fireable.  A small mistake that happens to have huge consequences isn't. 

11 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

I'm not sure an aspect of coaching ST is to help the guy be able to field the point or kickoff cleanly,  that is more of a core skill that should be developed through repetition and experience at the position. 

I don't think you're correct about this point.  The coach is responsible for everything that happens on the field.  If his kick returner is having trouble handling the ball cleanly, then it IS a fireable offense if the coach doesn't address that problem.   The coach has to sit with the appropriate assistants and with the player and develop a strategy for improving the players' performance, or he has to get the guy off the field.   The coach has to own all of it.   

[eSJayDee]

10 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Well, the other piece of evidence that proves that it was a squib kick is this:   When Bass kicks into the end zone, every time, six to eight Bills on the cover team run to the goal line.   Every time.   Not this time.   The ball was kicked into the end zone, and they stopped.  They stopped because the play was over, and something had happened that they recognized was not business as usual.  

👍

I will add that Farwell is a relatively new coach.  We've seen breakdowns in ST "intelligence" before.  I'm not one to think it prudent to fire someone for punitive purposes, but rather you dismiss them cuz you think it (more) likely they will fail in the future.  The question is (beyond who/where the fault lies assuming that as the evidence indicates something in "execution" failed), but what is the best course of action to improve things in the future.

Edited January 26, 2022 by eSJayDee
Wanted to add more

[Nitro]

If this is true then the coaches melted under the pressure.  A sports reporter should track down Bass and ask him about this or The DBs about the Kelce coverage.  The team made  several shaky calls/decisions.   LEARN from them.   Communicate clearly and ensure everyone is on the same page.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

30 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Sorry if I misunderstood, i haven't had a ton of time today at work to drive into much. 

 

I'm not sure an aspect of coaching ST is to help the guy be able to field the point or kickoff cleanly,  that is more of a core skill that should be developed through repetition and experience at the position.  Yes the coach can give pointers on how to position yourself and such, but there is that line of individual capability. It works that way in any line of work, as a leader or teaching someone on how to execute a task or a process, you look at your training process, you look at the people doing the training and eventually you get down to the skill level and ability.

 

Players still have to play and execute. If a WR who beat some competition out at camp and won a job and started dropping the ball all the time, would be placing blame on the WR coach? Players are part of that equation as well. Same goes for out punter who is awful.

 

I responded earlier about "fireable offense".  I'd like to loop back and addresss this.

 

I think it's true that at the higher levels of sport, coaches don't necessarily teach core skills.  Hell, I learned that was true at the Jr High/HS level.  I think that's a mistake when it's true.

 

I think it's a McDermott 'secret weapon' that he in fact, does expect his coaches to drill fundamentals and teach and reteach core skills.  Funny that you mention WR, I have seen big improvement in the sideline catching abilities and route running abilities of all our WR over the last couple years.   I think that if a fundamental skill is lacking, McDermott expects his coaching assistants to work with the players and help develop it, and in fact after Edmunds was injured last season there were even video clips of press conferences where MCDERMOTT could be seen drilling some fundamental technique with Edmunds.  Likewise some clips where Bobby Johnson was working on a basic drill with Mitch Morse after practice.

 

That said, there can be issues that need to go way beyond the time available during the season while installing a game plan, and need to be worked on in the off-season, like Knox working with his eye-hand specialist.

[Freddie's Dead]

11 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

Sean, just say you choked and move on. Okay, Bass didn’t get the call, defense STOP THEM. Don’t allow Hill and Kelce to run free off the line 2 plays in a row. 

Even more indication that HC choked. Call TO, get entire units together and voice your plan

 

HE DID CALL TO TWICE!!!  AND HE STILL CHOKED!!!

[Mr. WEO]

11 hours ago, Giuseppe Tognarelli said:

A popular Bills podcaster is claiming it is "fact, not speculation" that a squib kick was called and it was communicated to the entire special teams huddle except for Bass, who was practicing to the side.

Also, the Bills played defense as if there were only 8 seconds left. You almost wonder if the defensive call was made prior to the kick and they didn't adjust. Had they squibbed, the defense they played would have been fine.

 

It should be noted that the podcaster has not specified how he knows the "fact" of the squib call. Does he have a source in the building?

 

Sean McDermott.  He's been dying to toss someone under the bus with all of his "execution" stuff.

 

 

You F'd up.  Own it Clappy.

[Process]

It hurts

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

This is on one man. McDermott. In the biggest game of his life how does he not personally find Bass and tell him in his own words what they are doing?

 

But for the record, I don't really buy the narrative of the thread title. I think they meant all along to kick it off. McD was scared of a long run back to the 40 or worst. But none of this is as bad as the defense afterword. 

[Shaw66]

27 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

This is on one man. McDermott. In the biggest game of his life how does he not personally find Bass and tell him in his own words what they are doing?

 

But for the record, I don't really buy the narrative of the thread title. I think they meant all along to kick it off. McD was scared of a long run back to the 40 or worst. But none of this is as bad as the defense afterword. 

Well, I think you're wrong on both points. 

 

First, it's very clear that the way McDermott operates is to delegate responsibility.  He can't be, and doesn't want to be, responsible for everyone and every play.  He intentionally is hands off.  By your way of thinking, every time Allen goes on the field in the fourth quarter up by less than 10, McDermott and not someone else should be reminding him not to throw and interception, and reminding Singletary not to fumble, and reminding the offensive linemen to block but not to hold.   It's not McDermott's job to do all that.   It's his job to train other people to do it. 

 

Second, all of the evidence, including some fairly credible rumors and some visual evidence, like the kickoff team not running to the end zone, suggests that everyone knew it was a squib kick except Bass.  LIke you, at first I thought McD might have wanted to kick it through the end zone, but the evidence suggests otherwise.   McDermott himself said that they had failures of execution on the kickoff.   It's hard to imagine what else about that play could have been a failure.  It was a perfect touchback.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

7 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

By your way of thinking, every time Allen goes on the field in the fourth quarter up by less than 10, McDermott and not someone else should be reminding him not to throw and interception, and reminding Singletary not to fumble, and reminding the offensive linemen to block but not to hold.   

 

That is a terrible analogy. The last kick off in a playoff game of that magnitude with 13 seconds left and we are literally changing from the norm of kicking out of the end zone to the irregular of squib kicking is not comparable in any way to the three things you mentioned that have a risk of happening on every offensive play of every game.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Sammy Watkins' Rib

[Big Blitz]

9 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

 

McDermott sees it the same way.   He is not going to blame what happened on anyone, because he is going to work and evaluate and train to be sure it doesn't happen again.  It was someone's job to be sure that Bass knew to squib it, and that someone didn't do it.  The training has to be better, but maybe the system has to be better, too.  Maybe there needs to be a second guy, maybe a guy on the kickoff team, whose job it is to double check with Bass.   And maybe there are other on-field situations where they need a better procedure. 

 

 

This is my problem.  He didn't take ownership even if another coach screwed up.  By falling back on "execution" he publicly did fault or leave folks to assume it was someone else's fault.   

 

I just have a major issue with the fact this hasn't been addressed and is just being swept aside as if hoping it will cool down and we'll only remember the defense "not executing.  Just horrible breaks." 

 

Why can't he say in response to the worst loss in NFL history that "I made the call - and I STAND BY MY CALL.  We needed to kill 13 seconds in no way did I want to give that team's speed a chance to run back a kick or get from say the 10 to the 30 or 40 leaving say 6-7 seconds left.  That's enough time for a 20 yard pass and then a FG.  Or what if they break it?  Then we messed up kicking it.  We can look back and say that was the wrong call and I can accept that....I make dozens of wrong calls a game I wish I had back.  But at the time I thought they were the best calls for the team."

 

ANYTHING! 

 

What are the players who absolutely have to have an opinion on this thinking as they watched his explanation?  This is my fear, this is my concern....as this team is about to undergo potentially massive changes in coaches and certainly more roster turnover......Will no one be able to look at McD the same #1 because of the choke and worse #2 he didn't own it he deflected it.  

 

Why didn't he just take ownership the way a QB does even when his WRs are likely running wrong routes half the time or his line can't block worth a ***t.  

Edited January 27, 2022 by Big Blitz

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

That is a terrible analogy. The last kick off in a playoff game of that magnitude with 13 seconds left and we are literally changing from the norm of kicking out of the end zone to the irregular of squib kicking is not comparable in any way to the three things you mentioned that have a risk of happening on every offensive play of every game.

A mistake is a mistake.  If you don't think throwing an interception in the fourth quarter up less than 10 is a big mistake, I can't help you.  You'd be just as upset, and I would, and McDermott, if Allen threw a pick and lost the game.   The only reason we're focusing on this mistake is that it cost the game.  

 

How important was the play on first down in overtime?   How important was the second play?   Was McDermott supposed to remind somebody what his assignment was on each of those plays?   

 

The whole point of how McDermott approaches the game, and, by the way, the whole point of how any competent coach approaches the game, is that OTHER people are responsible for doing things, and you have to rely on those people to do their jobs.  McDermott can't do everyone's job.  

[Big Blitz]

Just now, Shaw66 said:

A mistake is a mistake.  If you don't think throwing an interception in the fourth quarter up less than 10 is a big mistake, I can't help you.  You'd be just as upset, and I would, and McDermott, if Allen threw a pick and lost the game.   The only reason we're focusing on this mistake is that it cost the game.  

 

How important was the play on first down in overtime?   How important was the second play?   Was McDermott supposed to remind somebody what his assignment was on each of those plays?   

 

The whole point of how McDermott approaches the game, and, by the way, the whole point of how any competent coach approaches the game, is that OTHER people are responsible for doing things, and you have to rely on those people to do their jobs.  McDermott can't do everyone's job.  

 

 

All true but some plays mean more then others and absolutely require the head coach to make a call -

 

We got 4 downs here or 3?

 

We going for 2?

 

Do we bench this guy or not?  

 

Should we kick it shallow or to the sun with 13 seconds left?  

 

 

Because these calls have bigger impacts on the game.  I don't think I want my head coach delegating responsibility here.  

[Shaw66]

7 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

This is my problem.  He didn't take ownership even if another coach screwed up.  By falling back on "execution" he publicly did fault or leave folks to assume it was someone else's fault.   

 

I just have a major issue with the fact this hasn't been addressed and is just being swept aside as if hoping it will cool down and we'll only remember the defense "not executing.  Just horrible breaks." 

 

Why can't he say in response to the worst loss in NFL history that "I made the call - and I STAND BY MY CALL.  We needed to kill 13 seconds in no way did I want to give that team's speed a chance to run back a kick or get from say the 10 to the 30 or 40 leaving say 6-7 seconds left.  That's enough time for a 20 yard pass and then a FG.  Or what if they break it?  Then we messed up kicking it.  We can look back and say that was the wrong call and I can accept that....I make dozens of wrong calls a game I wish I had back.  But at the time I thought they were the best calls for the team."

 

ANYTHING! 

 

What are the players who absolutely have to have an opinion on this thinking as they watched his explanation?  This is my fear, this is my concern....as this team is about to undergo potentially massive changes in coaches and certainly more roster turnover......Will no one be able to look at McD the same #1 because of the choke and worse #2 he didn't own it he deflected it.  

 

Why didn't he just take ownership the way a QB does even when his WRs are likely running wrong routes half the time or his line can't block worth a ***t.  

Oh, my goodness.  The simplest measure of your total lack of objectivity about this that you think that was the worst loss in NFL history.  That is so incredibly stupid that I should simply dismiss everything else you say.   A-T-L-A-N-T-A.

 

McDermott would say "it was my call and I stand by it" if in fact he had called for the kick into the end zone.   He often has owned up to decisions he has made.   That's not what happened here.  What happened is that one or more people in his organization failed to do their jobs.   They failed in their execution, and that is exactly what he said.   He will not name who failed in their job precisely because thousands of people like you will then proceed to persecute the guy for having made a mistake.  McDermott protects his people; we've seen it plenty of times.  

 

His players are proud of him.  They are proud that he protected the people who screwed up.  And they know that the press has to be managed, that what is said to the press has a particular purpose.  His players are savvy, and they don't have a problem with what he said on the subject.   He's saying something different inside the building; he's not covering up anything inside the building.   He is not losing his plays.  

 

You're just unhappy.  We're all unhappy.  

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

9 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

A mistake is a mistake.  If you don't think throwing an interception in the fourth quarter up less than 10 is a big mistake, I can't help you.  You'd be just as upset, and I would, and McDermott, if Allen threw a pick and lost the game.   The only reason we're focusing on this mistake is that it cost the game.  

 

How important was the play on first down in overtime?   How important was the second play?   Was McDermott supposed to remind somebody what his assignment was on each of those plays?   

 

The whole point of how McDermott approaches the game, and, by the way, the whole point of how any competent coach approaches the game, is that OTHER people are responsible for doing things, and you have to rely on those people to do their jobs.  McDermott can't do everyone's job.  

 

You missed my point Shaw. No need to discuss any further brother. 

[Shaw66]

5 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

All true but some plays mean more then others and absolutely require the head coach to make a call -

 

We got 4 downs here or 3?

 

We going for 2?

 

Do we bench this guy or not?  

 

Should we kick it shallow or to the sun with 13 seconds left?  

 

 

Because these calls have bigger impacts on the game.  I don't think I want my head coach delegating responsibility here.  

He didn't delegate responsibility on the decision.   I'm sure he made the call to squib it.  What he delegated, in August, was the responsibility to organize the kickoff team to execute a squib kick when it's called.   I'm sure what happened is McD called for the squib, Farwell or an assistant was responsible for putting the plan in action.   Every coach involved with special teams had a job to do.  Someone's job, some coach's job, was to be sure Bass got the message.   That person or persons blew their assignment.  

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

This is on one man. McDermott. In the biggest game of his life how does he not personally find Bass and tell him in his own words what they are doing?

 

But for the record, I don't really buy the narrative of the thread title. I think they meant all along to kick it off. McD was scared of a long run back to the 40 or worst. But none of this is as bad as the defense afterword. 

A run back to the 40 takes longer than a touchback and 15 yard pass