Frazier getting second interview with Joe Schoen and NYG

[GunnerBill]

18 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I know you are not and just asking a fair question...and its a good question.

 

We tend to run this bend don't break style of defense.  Keep everything in front of them.  I would like to see us be more aggressive at times, not saying on every down or completely change our philosophy, as I get a lot of it is McD's defense and I know he knows defense.  Wouldn't mind us bringing more heat to the QB too, we were about middle of the field in Blitz % this year.  And while the bend don't break defense can often be effective over the length of a game, it can also let you down when it needs to stop a team from scoring on an important drive. I would like to see a defense that is capable of stiffening up at the right times.  

 

Honestly, how we use Edmunds is a prime example of where I would like to see some new things inserted into our defense.  We tend to lean on Edmunds athletic ability to bank on him making up ground and getting to the play.  His primary role feels more like a 3rd safety or floater than it does a dominating MLB.  And I think this is why he is so polarizing around here...fans want to see stats and big plays...but he isn't being used that way.  

 

I would like to see us use his athletic gifts more to penetrate and disrupt plays.  Watching how Dallas used Parsons this year just made me really wonder how Edmunds could do if they used his athletic gifts in the same way.  

 

I might be guilty of coming at this with a sub conscious bias because I am not a big fan of heavy blitz defenses. I don't think that is the way to play defense in the modern NFL when QBs are so refined and so much of the offense around the league is predicated off RPO, play action and quick game. But to me blitzing more is not the answer for this defense. The Bills topped the NFL in pressure %. They are getting pressure they need a finisher. Actually the Bills get burned a LOT when they blitz. Some of the biggest plays we have given up in the regular season this season were on blitzes. Whether it is the throw to Claypool in week 1 or the long completion to Kyle Pitts v Atlanta to the walk off touchdown in Tampa. All blitzes. We are a bad blitzing team because the same issue that hurts us when we send 4 also hurts us when we send 5 - we don't have a finisher in the front 7. And if you don't get there when you are sending 5 you don't have the same protection behind to rally and tackle. 

 

As for Tremaine, they have tried at times to make him more of a penetrating force. The fact is he just isn't that good at it. It is when they use him that way that he gets caught up in the mess around the line of scrimmage to often. He doesn't have the same natural football instincts that Micah Parsons has. He makes more impact as a middle of the field coverage guy where he is genuinely effective at taking away passing lanes and forcing the Quarterback to throw the ball to spots where the Bills want it thrown so that they can come up and tackle. 

 

And I think that is the other point where the perceived lack of aggression comes in - the Bills play a lot of off coverage on the outside and once Tre went down that percentage went up even further. I know Beane said some nice things about Dane in his end of season presser (still not had time to watch the entire thing yet) but while that is cute and all, the reality is they played very little press on the outside with Dane and Levi. It was almost all off coverage and that does, schematically, put them in a more passive reactive mode. But that comes down to having to coach to your talent IMO. It is why another corner that you can trust to play some press - even though the Bills will still plenty of off coverage - remains a need. And I'm not talking about a guy who plays man. It doesn't have to be a man guy (although someone like Tre who can do it even if more comfortable in zone would be nice), it just has to be a guy you trust to be able to press and get physical at the line and still recover if they lose that initial skirmish. The problem with Levi and Dane is their limitations rather dictate that once they are beat they are beat. 

Edited January 28, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Hebert19]

On 1/26/2022 at 8:41 AM, Back2Buff said:

I feel like this is an indictment of how marketable the Giants job is.  The roster is terrible, and is the cap space.  

 

Going there for a coach could be the last time you get a HC job.  Why would a younger guy do that?

Love Frazier as a human and he's a good coach but please take him NYG's.  We need the draft pick and McDermott will figure out the D. 

[Reed83HOF]

15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I might be guilty of coming at this with a sub conscious bias because I am not a big fan of heavy blitz defenses. I don't think that is the way to play defense in the modern NFL when QBs are so refined and so much of the offense around the league is predicated off RPO, play action and quick game. But to me blitzing more is not the answer for this defense. The Bills topped the NFL in pressure %. They are getting pressure they need a finisher. Actually the Bills get burned a LOT when they blitz. Some of the biggest plays we have given up in the regular season this season were on blitzes. Whether it is the throw to Claypool in week 1 or the long completion to Kyle Pitts v Atlanta to the walk off touchdown in Tampa. All blitzes. We are a bad blitzing team because the same issue that hurts us when we send 4 also hurts us when we send 5 - we don't have a finisher in the front 7. And if you don't get there when you are sending 5 you don't have the same protection behind to rally and tackle. 

 

As for Tremaine, they have tried at times to make him more of a penetrating force. The fact is he just isn't that good at it. It is when they use him that way that he gets caught up in the mess around the line of scrimmage to often. He doesn't have the same natural football instincts that Micah Parsons has. He makes more impact as a middle of the field coverage guy where he is genuinely effective at taking away passing lanes and forcing the Quarterback to throw the ball to spots where the Bills want it thrown so that they can come up and tackle. 

 

And I think that is the other point where the perceived lack of aggression comes in - the Bills play a lot of off coverage on the outside and once Tre went down that percentage went up even further. I know Beane said some nice things about Dane in his end of season presser (still not had time to watch the entire thing yet) but while that is cute and all, the reality is they played very little press on the outside with Dane and Levi. It was almost all off coverage and that does, schematically, put them in a more passive reactive mode. But that comes down to having to coach to your talent IMO. It is why another corner that you can trust to play some press - even though the Bills will still plenty of off coverage - remains a need. And I'm not talking about a guy who plays man. It doesn't have to be a man guy (although someone like Tre who can do it even if more comfortable in zone would be nice), it just has to be a guy you trust to be able to press and get physical at the line and still recover if they lose that initial skirmish. The problem with Levi and Dane is their limitations rather dictate that once they are beat they are beat. 

This is very well said.  Edmunds plays as a 3rd safety in our defense, when he rushes he cannot get off blocks and is pushed out of the play. 

 

Some of it is recency bias as well, we were a bit more "agressive" with LorAx and I would have to go back and look, but the biggest thing was, he got home with the pressure. Right now our young guys aren't there yet to finish and the vets may have lost enough step that they can't finish anymore. It's that awkward in-between phase with the DL.

 

I still don't see the young guys taking a big enough step next year where I would try to get a pass rushing edge in FA who can get home to bridge this gap a bit...

[dave mcbride]

25 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I might be guilty of coming at this with a sub conscious bias because I am not a big fan of heavy blitz defenses. I don't think that is the way to play defense in the modern NFL when QBs are so refined and so much of the offense around the league is predicated off RPO, play action and quick game. But to me blitzing more is not the answer for this defense. The Bills topped the NFL in pressure %. They are getting pressure they need a finisher. Actually the Bills get burned a LOT when they blitz. Some of the biggest plays we have given up in the regular season this season were on blitzes. Whether it is the throw to Claypool in week 1 or the long completion to Kyle Pitts v Atlanta to the walk off touchdown in Tampa. All blitzes. We are a bad blitzing team because the same issue that hurts us when we send 4 also hurts us when we send 5 - we don't have a finisher in the front 7. And if you don't get there when you are sending 5 you don't have the same protection behind to rally and tackle. 

 

As for Tremaine, they have tried at times to make him more of a penetrating force. The fact is he just isn't that good at it. It is when they use him that way that he gets caught up in the mess around the line of scrimmage to often. He doesn't have the same natural football instincts that Micah Parsons has. He makes more impact as a middle of the field coverage guy where he is genuinely effective at taking away passing lanes and forcing the Quarterback to throw the ball to spots where the Bills want it thrown so that they can come up and tackle. 

 

And I think that is the other point where the perceived lack of aggression comes in - the Bills play a lot of off coverage on the outside and once Tre went down that percentage went up even further. I know Beane said some nice things about Dane in his end of season presser (still not had time to watch the entire thing yet) but while that is cute and all, the reality is they played very little press on the outside with Dane and Levi. It was almost all off coverage and that does, schematically, put them in a more passive reactive mode. But that comes down to having to coach to your talent IMO. It is why another corner that you can trust to play some press - even though the Bills will still plenty of off coverage - remains a need. And I'm not talking about a guy who plays man. It doesn't have to be a man guy (although someone like Tre who can do it even if more comfortable in zone would be nice), it just has to be a guy you trust to be able to press and get physical at the line and still recover if they lose that initial skirmish. The problem with Levi and Dane is their limitations rather dictate that once they are beat they are beat. 

This is a great post. I agree that this defense needs that CB who can play press and coverage. Otherwise, when you're up against a team like KC, Mahomes and co. will bleed you to death on crossers and the like. Which is what happened. Not having Tre was huge, although of course losing Honey Badger was huge for KC. Their pass D was a sieve without him. 

[Reed83HOF]

19 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

This is a great post. I agree that this defense needs that CB who can play press and coverage. Otherwise, when you're up against a team like KC, Mahomes and co. will bleed you to death on crossers and the like. Which is what happened. Not having Tre was huge, although of course losing Honey Badger was huge for KC. Their pass D was a sieve without him. 

Cover 1 is blowing my twitter up on this CB right now,  Donte Jackson

[dave mcbride]

5 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

Cover 1 is blowing my twitter up on this CB right now,  Donte Jackson

He's available given that he was a second rounder. Plus he's a Panther ...

 

PS - He definitely played with White at LSU. He came out one year after him.

Edited January 28, 2022 by dave mcbride

[Reed83HOF]

2 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

He's available given that he was a second rounder. Plus he's a Panther ...

 

PS - He definitely played with White at LSU. He came out one year after him.

Yup

[SectionC3]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I might be guilty of coming at this with a sub conscious bias because I am not a big fan of heavy blitz defenses. I don't think that is the way to play defense in the modern NFL when QBs are so refined and so much of the offense around the league is predicated off RPO, play action and quick game. But to me blitzing more is not the answer for this defense. The Bills topped the NFL in pressure %. They are getting pressure they need a finisher. Actually the Bills get burned a LOT when they blitz. Some of the biggest plays we have given up in the regular season this season were on blitzes. Whether it is the throw to Claypool in week 1 or the long completion to Kyle Pitts v Atlanta to the walk off touchdown in Tampa. All blitzes. We are a bad blitzing team because the same issue that hurts us when we send 4 also hurts us when we send 5 - we don't have a finisher in the front 7. And if you don't get there when you are sending 5 you don't have the same protection behind to rally and tackle. 

 

As for Tremaine, they have tried at times to make him more of a penetrating force. The fact is he just isn't that good at it. It is when they use him that way that he gets caught up in the mess around the line of scrimmage to often. He doesn't have the same natural football instincts that Micah Parsons has. He makes more impact as a middle of the field coverage guy where he is genuinely effective at taking away passing lanes and forcing the Quarterback to throw the ball to spots where the Bills want it thrown so that they can come up and tackle. 

 

And I think that is the other point where the perceived lack of aggression comes in - the Bills play a lot of off coverage on the outside and once Tre went down that percentage went up even further. I know Beane said some nice things about Dane in his end of season presser (still not had time to watch the entire thing yet) but while that is cute and all, the reality is they played very little press on the outside with Dane and Levi. It was almost all off coverage and that does, schematically, put them in a more passive reactive mode. But that comes down to having to coach to your talent IMO. It is why another corner that you can trust to play some press - even though the Bills will still plenty of off coverage - remains a need. And I'm not talking about a guy who plays man. It doesn't have to be a man guy (although someone like Tre who can do it even if more comfortable in zone would be nice), it just has to be a guy you trust to be able to press and get physical at the line and still recover if they lose that initial skirmish. The problem with Levi and Dane is their limitations rather dictate that once they are beat they are beat. 

 

“Finisher” is the perfect word here.  Absolutely perfect.  To me that’s been the issue for awhile.  I think we miss Jordan Phillips a lot more than we realized.  Oliver was really good this year, and I get that Phillips isn’t a closer on the edge, which is probably what you’re getting at.  But he was so disruptive against that pass that I feel like he made guys like Hughs better because he took away the option to step up in the pocket.  

 

I completely agree with having a more physical corner next year.  The biggest thing to me, though, is getting a pass rusher who can close the deal.  We need it desperately. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, dave mcbride said:

He's available given that he was a second rounder. Plus he's a Panther ...

 

PS - He definitely played with White at LSU. He came out one year after him.

 

He has been mixed as a pro. At the right price, wouldn't hate it. 

[Coach Tuesday]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He has been mixed as a pro. At the right price, wouldn't hate it. 

 

This staff has a nearly unblemished (aside from the one jerk who quit in the middle of opening day) record of developing secondary players who they draft or sign.  Nearly all of them have become the best versions of themselves in this defense under this coaching staff.

[thunderingsquid]

On 1/25/2022 at 7:21 PM, Saint Doug said:

Please take Frazier instead of Daboll. Please. I’ll pray to the football gods. 

This THIS, ALL OF THIS

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

And I think that is the other point where the perceived lack of aggression comes in - the Bills play a lot of off coverage on the outside and once Tre went down that percentage went up even further. I know Beane said some nice things about Dane in his end of season presser (still not had time to watch the entire thing yet) but while that is cute and all, the reality is they played very little press on the outside with Dane and Levi. It was almost all off coverage and that does, schematically, put them in a more passive reactive mode. But that comes down to having to coach to your talent IMO. It is why another corner that you can trust to play some press - even though the Bills will still plenty of off coverage - remains a need. And I'm not talking about a guy who plays man. It doesn't have to be a man guy (although someone like Tre who can do it even if more comfortable in zone would be nice), it just has to be a guy you trust to be able to press and get physical at the line and still recover if they lose that initial skirmish. The problem with Levi and Dane is their limitations rather dictate that once they are beat they are beat. 

 

This is a really key point that I haven't heard discussed too much.

 

Caveat that I'm one who really needs all-22 to dissect what we're doing with coverage, and I haven't been watching as much this season.  I never got Gamepass resolved. 

 

That said, my impression is that since Tre went down, we were playing almost exclusively zone - off-ball coverage.  People ask "why weren't we jamming Kelce and Hill at the line", it's because of what you say that I bolded above. 

 

Without Tre, we don't have someone who can press and get physical at the line, then recover and not be beat.  We just don't.  There might be some ways around it - but it would involve amazing handoff and communication skills that are hard to pull off without causing coverage breakdowns, so you have to be careful you don't lose more than you gain with them.

 

By the way, I also agree completely with your comments on blitz-heavy defenses.  I think one reason Don Martindale got the heave-ho is that the Ravens decided his defensive scheme, subtitled "1001 different looks to blitz from", wasn't effective 1) in the modern NFL, against a more mobile QB 2) without that elite 'finisher' they just didnt' have after Judon left, and that is expensive in FA and hard to find in the draft.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

Cover 1 is blowing my twitter up on this CB right now,  Donte Jackson

 I mentioned him the other day. Perfect fit. Cover 1 reading around here? 

 

 

[HappyDays]

I don't blame Frazier for the loss, not even a little bit. You don't beat the Chiefs offense with scheme. You beat them with talent. It's the same thing the Patriots found out in two games against us. You can have the best coached defense in the league... when you run up against elite QB talents it doesn't matter because they can take negative plays and turn them into positive plays. The only way you beat a QB like that is with superior talent. The Patriots and Bills defenses are very similar IMO. Well coached and schemed but not enough game changing talent. Keeping everything in front of you and collapsing the pocket over time works against the Zach Wilsons of the NFL. Against Mahomes the only thing that matter is actually bringing him down or having CBs and LBs that can cover his elite weapons. There is nothing Frazier could have done to change the result of this game. We need to add a game changing talent to this front 7 next year, some way some how.

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by HappyDays

[Thurman#1]

On 1/26/2022 at 12:20 PM, YoloinOhio said:

Schoen 

 

 

Smart to be exhaustive about the process on this decision.

[thunderingsquid]

1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said:

Cover 1 is blowing my twitter up on this CB right now,  Donte Jackson

He is very physical and chucks wrs at the LOS.  Quite refreshing after what we just went through.  

 

Frazier going and adding Jackson would be a HUGE upgrade.  

[MrEpsYtown]

1 minute ago, thunderingsquid said:

He is very physical and chucks wrs at the LOS.  Quite refreshing after what we just went through.  

 

Frazier going and adding Jackson would be a HUGE upgrade.  

He also runs a 4.32

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I don't blame Frazier for the loss, not even a little bit. You don't beat the Chiefs offense with scheme. You beat them with talent. It's the same thing the Patriots found out in two games against us. You can have the best coached defense in the league... when you run up against elite QB talents it doesn't matter because they can take negative plays and turn them into positive plays. The only way you beat a QB like that is with superior talent. The Patriots and Bills defenses are very similar IMO. Well coached and schemed but not enough game changing talent. Keeping everything in front of you and collapsing the pocket over time works against the Zach Wilsons of the NFL. Against Mahomes the only thing that matter is actually bringing him down or having CBs and LBs that can cover his elite weapons. There is nothing Frazier could have done to change the result of this game. We need to add a game changing talent to this front 7 next year, some way some how.

 

 

I think he and McD share some blame for the two passes to get KC into FG range. The coaching miscue there is on both of them. However, that aside I agree with you totally. People thinking the problem is Leslie Frazier are asking the wrong question IMO.

[Wayne Cubed]

3 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I think he and McD share some blame for the two passes to get KC into FG range. The coaching miscue there is on both of them. However, that aside I agree with you totally. People thinking the problem is Leslie Frazier are asking the wrong question IMO.

 

Yea, I think you can still apprecaite the work McD and Frazier put into this defense this year and still think they made some bad decsions in the KC game. I think the sceme is fine and the sceme still works against the moderrn NFL offense. They coached some really really good defensive performances this year. 

[thunderingsquid]

14 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

I don't blame Frazier for the loss, not even a little bit. You don't beat the Chiefs offense with scheme. You beat them with talent. It's the same thing the Patriots found out in two games against us. You can have the best coached defense in the league... when you run up against elite QB talents it doesn't matter because they can take negative plays and turn them into positive plays. The only way you beat a QB like that is with superior talent. The Patriots and Bills defenses are very similar IMO. Well coached and schemed but not enough game changing talent. Keeping everything in front of you and collapsing the pocket over time works against the Zach Wilsons of the NFL. Against Mahomes the only thing that matter is actually bringing him down or having CBs and LBs that can cover his elite weapons. There is nothing Frazier could have done to change the result of this game. We need to add a game changing talent to this front 7 next year, some way some how.

 

23:00 this was an adjustment by our DC no doubt