Coaching or Drafting? - The Defensive Front

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think there is any chance at all that Sean McDermott - a Jim Johnson disciple - moves to a 3-4 defense. 

You have a point, and I am well aware of that coaching tree. I lived in Philadelphia for most of the Andy Reid/ McNabb - Jim Johnson era and what is now called 'Defensive U' by some in NFL circles. (I think McDermott called it that when he was hired in Buffalo) That defensive/ Special Teams staff was loaded. Reid HC, Johnson DC, Rivera, McDermott, Spagnoulo, Frazier, Harbaugh etc.

 

Johnson was a 4-3 adherent and innovator, but was known for aggressive blitz packages and an attacking style. Frazier was a starting DB for the 85 Bears, who also attacked. McDermott has made tweaks to it already going to a base Nickel and playing back and not being as aggressive. I wonder why the combo of McDermott and Frazier is more bend but don't break and less attacking? Is it personnel? Is it changes to the game rules? etc.

 

This thread is all about that and the premium picks being spent on defense. All of this fits where I am as a fan. Why does the defense seem to blow a lot of critical moments (Hail Murray/ 13 seconds etc). I just don't see many attack style/ impact players on this roster. So I am wondering if it is scheme/ picks/ coaching/ philosophy?

 

I also am looking at potential pass rushers and attackers and was surprised a guy like Reddick could be available. He isn't a scheme fit as Buffalo stands now, but maybe some tweaking should be made?

 

Would it be so bad to hire a guy like Fangio and have McDermott delegate the defense to him? Could Fangio's style get more out of these premium picks with a different philosophy? A few picks/ FA would have to be spent to retool the front, but is that so bad? What the Bills are doing now is not working in big moments against top tier competition.

[Ralonzo]

On 1/25/2022 at 8:56 PM, Toyo321 said:

We need a stud linebacker something fierce.  Milano and Edmunds are average and always will be.

They have great sideline-to-sideline range which is important in this defense. It’s worse to have Klein in there making plays within a limited portion of the field but not having the range to make plays on the edge, than have Edmunds being able to get to the edge and miss the tackle. Maybe Klein just isn’t fast enough to vacate his zone following the QB’s eyes leading to wide open crossers, I don’t know.

[Buffalo Junction]

49 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He is more a 3-4 OLB. Don't think he is a scheme fit. 

And he’s not one of the bigger (6’3”+ and 260 lbs) 3-4 OLBs like Judon or Za’Darius Smith who can be effective with their hand in the dirt.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Buffalo Junction

[SCBills]

Part of this is the fact that we are drafting late in the 1st.  

 

Taking pass rushers in the late 1st/2nd Round means you're typically waiting around until Year 2 or 3 to see if you've got anything there.  

 

Let's take a look at the mid-late 1st Round pass rushers from last year... there were a bunch.

 

18- Jaelen Phillips

21 - Kwity Paye

28- Payton Turner

30 - Greg Rousseau

31 - Odafe Oweh

32 - Joe Tryon

 

Any of those guys blow y'all away Year One?  It just is what it is, typically.

 

[GunnerBill]

40 minutes ago, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

You have a point, and I am well aware of that coaching tree. I lived in Philadelphia for most of the Andy Reid/ McNabb - Jim Johnson era and what is now called 'Defensive U' by some in NFL circles. (I think McDermott called it that when he was hired in Buffalo) That defensive/ Special Teams staff was loaded. Reid HC, Johnson DC, Rivera, McDermott, Spagnoulo, Frazier, Harbaugh etc.

 

Johnson was a 4-3 adherent and innovator, but was known for aggressive blitz packages and an attacking style. Frazier was a starting DB for the 85 Bears, who also attacked. McDermott has made tweaks to it already going to a base Nickel and playing back and not being as aggressive. I wonder why the combo of McDermott and Frazier is more bend but don't break and less attacking? Is it personnel? Is it changes to the game rules? etc.

 

This thread is all about that and the premium picks being spent on defense. All of this fits where I am as a fan. Why does the defense seem to blow a lot of critical moments (Hail Murray/ 13 seconds etc). I just don't see many attack style/ impact players on this roster. So I am wondering if it is scheme/ picks/ coaching/ philosophy?

 

I also am looking at potential pass rushers and attackers and was surprised a guy like Reddick could be available. He isn't a scheme fit as Buffalo stands now, but maybe some tweaking should be made?

 

Would it be so bad to hire a guy like Fangio and have McDermott delegate the defense to him? Could Fangio's style get more out of these premium picks with a different philosophy? A few picks/ FA would have to be spent to retool the front, but is that so bad? What the Bills are doing now is not working in big moments against top tier competition.

 

Wow a few questions in there.... 

 

I think firstly, yes, it is a combination of the changed rules and just how the game is played offensively that make it harder to run heavy blitz attacks in the modern NFL. You need to disrupt the receivers at the line long enough for your blitzes to get home and that was the genesis of some of those big blitz heavy schemes. They were a response to the west coast offense which is a pure timing offense and their whole premise was to throw the timing off. It is much more difficult to get physical at the line than it was without drawing flags and teams throw the ball so much more quickly from the snap now. Hardly any team runs lots of 7 step drop back throwing. It's all shotgun pitch and catch and deep drops only off RPO and play action looks. 

 

I think you look at the NFL since the rules changed and the teams that have had success have largely been defenses that don't give up big plays, generally in that cover 1 / cover 3 type scheme. Rotating safeties, heavy d-line rotations.... it's a new world. I also think when you look at the Bills it is true that haven't got enough out of all their premium picks. Edmunds in particular, Epenesa looks like a bust. They haven't found that dominant guy in the front 7 who can take over a game although Ed Oliver is pretty close. 

 

Would hiring Fangio be a bad thing? No Fangio is a great defensive mind. But so is McDermott. And their schemes are different. It isn't going to happen.

Edited January 27, 2022 by GunnerBill

[TPS]

On 1/25/2022 at 8:13 PM, ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin said:

The Bills have a defensive minded Head Coach and a former HC as DC. This should mean the Bills have an edge in developing defensive players and having an impact unit, even in the modern NFL. Through their time in Buffalo McDermott and Frazier have done a remarkable job with the secondary, but I think all fans would admit the front 7 (or 6 in our case) has been a weakness. Plenty of pressures but few sacks, terrible against the run. Pressures work against rookies/ backups/ marginal QBs, but the DL has to get home against the best and disrupt those QBs.

 

Leslie Frazier was a DB on the 1985 Chicago Bears Defense. He was a DB coach for Andy Reid for the 2000's era Eagles. He has had many other stops as DC and HC, but his specialty is and has been DBs. McDermott was a S in college and was a DB coach before becoming the DC in Philadelphia. It was a tough task trying to replace Jim Johnson and after two years as DC for the Eagles he was let go. Ron Rivera (another assistant Defensive coach for the 2000's Eagles) brought him in to be DC in Carolina. Frazier and McDermott have coached some great DBs. They have been a part of and have coached some of the best Defenses ever. Guys like Brian Dawkins and Josh Norman played for these coaches.

 

The Bills under this coaching duo have made the most of any DB talent they can get. Poyer was a minor bust for Cleveland, and Hyde was a man with potential but no position in GB. They have become a Pro-Bowl/ All Pro Safety duo in Buffalo. White's stickiness has been maximized in this system. UDFA Levi Wallace has become a solid #2 and will get paid this off-season. 7th round pick Dane Jackson held up well in White's absence. Taron Johnson went from a guy infamous for a football bouncing off his helmet during The Combine to being a top 5-10 nickel DB who has made game changing plays and is a starter. Even EJ Gaines looked solid here.

 

Let's admit it Bills fans, the defensive front 6/7 has been weak. It is worse considering the FA$ and premium draft picks spent there.

 

The strategy with picks and FA$ was sound, but the results are poor.

 

We can point to GM successes and failures and HC/DC successes and failures. Something is out of sync, and it needs to be fixed.

 

Let's hear it. There is a clear disconnect in investment and results.

While I agree the results may not be consistent with the investment, I would not call the defensive front weak and the results poor. 

You don't end up as the #1 ranked team in ppg and yards ppg with "poor results" regardless of who you played.   According to an ESPN pass rush metric, the Bills were tied for 5th (SF) in team win rate.  In addition, Oliver was ranked 7th in win rate among DTs, so one can argue he is living up to his draft status now.

 

What I think you CAN make the case for is the investments in Butler and and Star were poor and somewhat poor respectively.  We'll have a better idea on how the draft picks pan out next year, including Epenesa, who I would not declare a bust yet (the third year is typically the most important for many players).

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32176833/2021-nfl-pass-rushing-run-stopping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings