Should the Bills extend Edmunds?

[RaoulDuke79]

This is a real dilemma for me. He has some ability and talent, but someone needs to teach him how to defend the run. He continually overruns and misses tackles. I'd like to keep him on board, but not at a premium. 

[Turk71]

His greatest asset is still his potential. It's been 4 years and people are still talking about his potential, I don't hear anyone mentioning game changing plays. When does he start making plays? When does he stop looking lost and just instinctively follow the play and flow to the ball?

What amazes me about this guy is the polarity of takes on his play. PFF consistently rates him very poorly year after year. I watch him play and I can't figure out why people think he is good. Is he out of position? I've thought from the very beginning that the middle is not the right place for him. His skills seem better suited to the outside, but he's not a good pass rusher either. If you watch him blitz he is very rarely effective. 

  He is more a physical specimen than a great football player. I would much prefer to have a great football player in the middle running the defense than a physical freak with great potential.

  

Edited February 5, 2022 by Turk71

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

7 minutes ago, Governor said:

There’s always a team out there that thinks they can fix a player but I’d say a mid-3rd and maybe a later pick along with it. Definitely not a 2nd unless it’s a team that doesn’t value draft picks like the Rams.

 

So you think if we give a team our 3rd round pick they will take Edmunds??  But don't give them our second??   LOL  (Don't worry I understand what you really meant.)

 

But do find it rather funny that most people here think he's terrible, but yet some team is going to trade for him.  I get it there's always players that don't work out very well or as expected but yet some team will trade for him, usually at about 50 cents on the dollar.   But how many players get traded who aren't nearly as good as expected but yet have the 5th year option picked up on them so it will cost the new team alot of money to take him.   I tried to Google players traded after having 5th year option picked up, but didn't find anything, but maybe there have been some.

 

From that standpoint my comment said jokingly about having to give up picks to get rid of him isn't so far off.  Recall Cleveland was it took on some large contract a few years back, but also received draft picked for taking on the contract.   You're at least more realistic than many here who think we could get a 1st rounder for him.

 

If the Bills are able to trade him and get a decent return on him tells me the entire NFL values him much more than many of the posters here.   And then posters will be ripping the Bills for giving away a good player.

[Governor]

3 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

So you think if we give a team our 3rd round pick they will take Edmunds??  But don't give them our second??   LOL  (Don't worry I understand what you really meant.)

 

But do find it rather funny that most people here think he's terrible, but yet some team is going to trade for him.  I get it there's always players that don't work out very well or as expected but yet some team will trade for him, usually at about 50 cents on the dollar.   But how many players get traded who aren't nearly as good as expected but yet have the 5th year option picked up on them so it will cost the new team alot of money to take him.   I tried to Google players traded after having 5th year option picked up, but didn't find anything, but maybe there have been some.

 

From that standpoint my comment said jokingly about having to give up picks to get rid of him isn't so far off.  Recall Cleveland was it took on some large contract a few years back, but also received draft picked for taking on the contract.   You're at least more realistic than many here who think we could get a 1st rounder for him.

 

If the Bills are able to trade him and get a decent return on him tells me the entire NFL values him much more than many of the posters here.   And then posters will be ripping the Bills for giving away a good player.

Once the dust settles after Frazier is fired, we’ll start to see the next moves and I’d be good with a total transformation of the defense even if it takes a full season to be decent.

 

McD is in a spot now where something has to change on defense or he will probably be fired after next season. That’s totally preventable if he just man’s up and does what’s needed.

[BillsFan130]

30 minutes ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

This is a real dilemma for me. He has some ability and talent, but someone needs to teach him how to defend the run. He continually overruns and misses tackles. I'd like to keep him on board, but not at a premium. 

Someone needs to teach him how to defend the run, how to get a sack, force a fumble, recover a fumble, make an interception, make more tackles for losses, shed a block, not over pursuit run plays, and not get manipulated by the QBs eyes in a lot of passing downs.

[RaoulDuke79]

2 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Someone needs to teach him how to defend the run, how to get a sack, force a fumble, recover a fumble, make an interception, make more tackles for losses, shed a block, not over pursuit run plays, and not get manipulated by the QBs eyes in a lot of passing downs.

Agreed. Similar to Allen, he was raw with a big upside based on physical athleticism.  He hasn't progressed a whole lot since. I can't say it's because of system or if he just had a low ceiling. If I had the purse strings,  I wouldn't be terribly eager to open them up too far.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

12 minutes ago, Governor said:

Once the dust settles after Frazier is fired, we’ll start to see the next moves and I’d be good with a total transformation of the defense even if it takes a full season to be decent.

 

McD is in a spot now where something has to change on defense or he will probably be fired after next season. That’s totally preventable if he just man’s up and does what’s needed.

 

It's been two weeks since the last game.  If he hasn't been fired by now, highly doubt it's going to happen.  Really don't think the problem on defense is coaching (excluding the final 13 seconds) but the problem is they don't have that 10 to 12 sack guy on the defensive line.  Frazier is coaching the scheme McD wants so even he was fired, likely McD would want someone else to coach the same style. Barring a total collapse where they only win 4 or 5 games, good chance McD makes playoffs again and not getting fired

[BillsFan130]

17 minutes ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

Agreed. Similar to Allen, he was raw with a big upside based on physical athleticism.  He hasn't progressed a whole lot since. I can't say it's because of system or if he just had a low ceiling. If I had the purse strings,  I wouldn't be terribly eager to open them up too far.

Yes sir, well said.  Agreed 100 percent 

[Turk71]

6 minutes ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

It's been two weeks since the last game.  If he hasn't been fired by now, highly doubt it's going to happen.  Really don't think the problem on defense is coaching (excluding the final 13 seconds) but the problem is they don't have that 10 to 12 sack guy on the defensive line.  Frazier is coaching the scheme McD wants so even he was fired, likely McD would want someone else to coach the same style. Barring a total collapse where they only win 4 or 5 games, good chance McD makes playoffs again and not getting fired

42 points, 552 yards, 8 of 13 on 3rd down, 30 first downs and a 10 minute advantage in time of poss. and the defensive problem wasn't coaching except for the 13 seconds? Really?

 The Bills defensive scheme the entire game was a scared and embarrassing homage to the greatness of Mahomes. The weak and scared defensive scheme just bowed before him and conceded yardage all night long showing no faith in the players to challenge and beat them. The result was the Chiefs offense had their best game of the year and the Bills suffered one of the most embarrassing and humiliating defeats in NFL playoff history. This is not hyperbole, it's what happened.

  Cinci, whose defense was considered far inferior to Buffalo's,  challenged them and conceded nothing to their greatness. The result was only 24 points, 375 yards, the Bengals leading t of poss by 6 minutes and now heading to the SB instead of the Bills.

  The Bills played one of the top 3 easiest schedules in the league last season and only faced a few good qbs all year. The soft bend don't break d works fine against lousy qbs who can't sustain drives but Frazier makes no adjustment for qbs who can. This type of d is not only ineffective against good qbs it allows time consuming drives that keep Allen off the field. The goal should be to give Allen as many possessions and to score as many points as possible. 

Lastly, as a fan and spectator, that soft nonaggressive defense is just horrible to watch. 'The Death of a Thousand Cuts' I call it.

 

  

[Richard Noggin]

11 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

42 points, 552 yards, 8 of 13 on 3rd down, 30 first downs and a 10 minute advantage in time of poss. and the defensive problem wasn't coaching except for the 13 seconds? Really?

 The Bills defensive scheme the entire game was a scared and embarrassing homage to the greatness of Mahomes. The weak and scared defensive scheme just bowed before him and conceded yardage all night long showing no faith in the players to challenge and beat them. The result was the Chiefs offense had their best game of the year and the Bills suffered one of the most embarrassing and humiliating defeats in NFL playoff history. This is not hyperbole, it's what happened.

  Cinci, whose defense was considered far inferior to Buffalo's,  challenged them and conceded nothing to their greatness. The result was only 24 points, 375 yards, the Bengals leading t of poss by 6 minutes and now heading to the SB instead of the Bills.

  The Bills played one of the top 3 easiest schedules in the league last season and only faced a few good qbs all year. The soft bend don't break d works fine against lousy qbs who can't sustain drives but Frazier makes no adjustment for qbs who can. This type of d is not only ineffective against good qbs it allows time consuming drives that keep Allen off the field. The goal should be to give Allen as many possessions and to score as many points as possible. 

Lastly, as a fan and spectator, that soft nonaggressive defense is just horrible to watch. 'The Death of a Thousand Cuts' I call it.

 

  

You say it's not hyperbole, your criticism of what happened against KC, and at first I disagreed with that characterization (that it isn't hyperbole), given the emotional language invoked ("scared," "embarrassing," "weak," etc.). But by the end I'm actually mostly on board with your take. The Frazier defensive plan does NOT seem to work against elite offenses/QBs. They have answers to simple, repetitive riddles, no matter how awesome the safeties are. 

[BuffaloRebound]

I could live with 4 years $40m for Edmunds.    If he wants more than that, then give him permission to find a trade partner.  Stupid to have him play this year for $12.7m.  That’s a big cap number and then he walks next year for nothing.  Relying on a comp pick in 2024 depending on who we sign in free agency in 2023 isn’t worth the wait. Trade him now if he wants big money.  

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, BillsFan130 said:

Someone needs to teach him how to defend the run, how to get a sack, force a fumble, recover a fumble, make an interception, make more tackles for losses, shed a block, not over pursuit run plays, and not get manipulated by the QBs eyes in a lot of passing downs.

So in other words pretty much everything a LB is expected to do? That ship has sailed and this raw, young talent has had plenty of time to prove himself.  If Beane can fleece someone for a 2nd or 3rd pick, do it immediately!

[Motor26]

1 hour ago, BuffaloRebound said:

I could live with 4 years $40m for Edmunds.    If he wants more than that, then give him permission to find a trade partner.  Stupid to have him play this year for $12.7m.  That’s a big cap number and then he walks next year for nothing.  Relying on a comp pick in 2024 depending on who we sign in free agency in 2023 isn’t worth the wait. Trade him now if he wants big money.  

4/40 no thanks. Would rather just wait out his contract if they can’t trade him and pick up someone in the 3rd or 4th who can play Middle Linebacker. 

[LABILLBACKER]

21 minutes ago, Motor26 said:

4/40 no thanks. Would rather just wait out his contract if they can’t trade him and pick up someone in the 3rd or 4th who can play Middle Linebacker. 

That's probably what they'll do and I'm ok with it.  No way he's worth 10/yr.  He better enjoy his 12.7 because that's the last penny he gets from the Bills. 

[gr8billsfan]

The question is if he’s being utilized to his strengths? Yes, he’s had a lot of missed tackles. Yet, who would we replace him with?  IMO keep the Defensive core intact. Sign him for a two year deal. Our biggest concern isn’t the MLB, it’s the CB2

[HOUSE]

He is still very young, a freak athlete, a once in a life time talent!

 

Trade him for a 3rd rounder....

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

25 minutes ago, HOUSE said:

He is still very young, a freak athlete, a once in a life time talent!

 

Trade him for a 3rd rounder....

Is that a BO'B:GM move?

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

9 hours ago, Turk71 said:

42 points, 552 yards, 8 of 13 on 3rd down, 30 first downs and a 10 minute advantage in time of poss. and the defensive problem wasn't coaching except for the 13 seconds? Really?

 The Bills defensive scheme the entire game was a scared and embarrassing homage to the greatness of Mahomes. The weak and scared defensive scheme just bowed before him and conceded yardage all night long showing no faith in the players to challenge and beat them. The result was the Chiefs offense had their best game of the year and the Bills suffered one of the most embarrassing and humiliating defeats in NFL playoff history. This is not hyperbole, it's what happened.

  Cinci, whose defense was considered far inferior to Buffalo's,  challenged them and conceded nothing to their greatness. The result was only 24 points, 375 yards, the Bengals leading t of poss by 6 minutes and now heading to the SB instead of the Bills.

  The Bills played one of the top 3 easiest schedules in the league last season and only faced a few good qbs all year. The soft bend don't break d works fine against lousy qbs who can't sustain drives but Frazier makes no adjustment for qbs who can. This type of d is not only ineffective against good qbs it allows time consuming drives that keep Allen off the field. The goal should be to give Allen as many possessions and to score as many points as possible. 

Lastly, as a fan and spectator, that soft nonaggressive defense is just horrible to watch. 'The Death of a Thousand Cuts' I call it.

 

  

 

9 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

You say it's not hyperbole, your criticism of what happened against KC, and at first I disagreed with that characterization (that it isn't hyperbole), given the emotional language invoked ("scared," "embarrassing," "weak," etc.). But by the end I'm actually mostly on board with your take. The Frazier defensive plan does NOT seem to work against elite offenses/QBs. They have answers to simple, repetitive riddles, no matter how awesome the safeties are. 

 

What you say may be all true, but my main point that I was responding too was the poster who stated he was: "waiting for McD to fire Frazier"  Frazier and McD are kind of a package deal so even if that happened, likely he'd replace him with someone else running the same defense.  And if he hasn't fired him two weeks after the last game, doubt it's happening now either.

 

I'd like to understand what a "weak and scared defense scheme" is?  Yes agree they gave up yards and allowed KC to sustain drives.  But to me it comes back to not being able to sack Mahommes and other QB's throughout the year.  They get to them some, but not enough. Yes against lower level QB's it works because our secondary particularly Hyde and Poyer confuse the offense enough to not be able to convert enough 3rd downs.  Certainly helped the Bengals too that Mahommes (and Reid) made some real bone headed plays too on top of everything.

[BillsFan130]

9 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

So in other words pretty much everything a LB is expected to do? That ship has sailed and this raw, young talent has had plenty of time to prove himself.  If Beane can fleece someone for a 2nd or 3rd pick, do it immediately!

Haha yep exactly.

 

I was being sarcastic with my post.

 

Definitely agree with you👍 

[Big Blitz]

I think he's going to be floated around in every trade scenario including moving up from 25 to say in the 10 to 15 range.  

 

Looking at the board....

 

 

Washington at 11 - they could use an MLB.  And I'd do Edmonds and the 25th for the 11th.

 

The Vikings at 12 - could we talk a massive deal involving Hunter?   The Vikings have cap issues here in 2022 - currently over the cap.  They might look to do a mini rebuild under new management.  Hunter is 27 but coming off a torn pec and neck surgery.     

 

Edmonds, the 25th, a 1st next year, for Hunter? 

 

The Eagles have the 15th and 16th picks.  Unless the plan is Hurts and their firsts for Watson they will definitely be open here to trading one of them.  

 

 

I don't love the idea of trading him.

 

It's just cap reality and I don't think you can pay him what will take up space we need for more significant positions of need - IOL and CB.  WR is going to be one to if only Diggs and Davis are back.