Should the Bills extend Edmunds?

[Billy Zabka]

Edmunds list of weaknesses coming out of college....Tell me if they sound familiar

 

*Instincts are average and relies on athletic gifts

 

*Can be a step slow to diagnose

 

*Lured by misdirection

 

*Will take random downhill paths that trap him in the quagmire

 

*Patience is lacking

 

*Races ahead of plays and voids his leverage and run fits at times

 

*Needs to add more upper and lower body strength

 

*Average base strength and high center of gravity create issues holding up at the point of attack

 

*Needs to be quicker to punch in order to maintain clearance

 

*Mental busts in man coverage hurt his team

[Buffalo_Stampede]

He doesn't make a lot of plays that stand out  but he's not a liability. This is a very difficult decision based on his playing time and age. He never comes off the field and he's still only 24 next season. 

 

It's not easy to find an every down LB but it's not the hardest position to fill. 

 

He's a captain of back to back division champions. I think fans are severely underestimating his worth. As I said earlier he's not a liability, I don't know if I want to create a glaring hole in the defense. 

 

Linebackers are kind of like running backs. If the line isn't doing their job then the Linebackers job gets harder. There's a lot of traffic to navigate through. We agree the Bills defensive line isn't the best, but we're complaining about Tremaine Edmunds. It really doesn't make sense.

 

The question should be how do we replace Edmunds? I'm kind of tired of reading this board lately. A lot of people talking about getting rid of people but don't talk about replacements.

 

If I'm Beane and McDermott I'm trying to add stoutness to the defensive line. We need players that aren't easily moved. Edmunds and Milano would be much better.

Edited February 18, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[BarleyNY]

5 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

He doesn't make a lot of plays that stand out  but he's not a liability. This is a very difficult decision based on his playing time and age. He never comes off the field and he's still only 24 next season. 

 

It's not easy to find an every down LB but it's not the hardest position to fill. 

 

He's a captain of back to back division champions. I think fans are severely underestimating his worth. As I said earlier he's not a liability, I don't know if I want to create a glaring hole in the defense. 

 

Linebackers are kind of like running backs. If the line isn't doing their job then the Linebackers job gets harder. There's a lot of traffic to navigate through. We agree the Bills defensive line isn't the best, but we're complaining about Tremaine Edmunds. It really doesn't make sense.

 

The question should be how do we replace Edmunds? I'm kind of tired of reading this board lately. A lot of people talking about getting rid of people but don't talk about replacements.

 

If I'm Beane and McDermott I'm trying to add stoutness to the defensive line. We need players that aren't easily moved. Edmunds and Milano would be much better.

I absolutely hate the “Well, who is going to replace him?” argument.  It’s perfectly acceptable to understand that a player isn’t performing up to an acceptable standard for their position or contract.  As for replacements in general there’s not much to be said until free agency and the draft anyway.  Since Edmunds is here for the 2022 season we’re pretty much down to the draft - and non-premium picks at that - for his long term replacement.  I could see them adding a player like Quay Walker or Chad Muma to be his backup this season and develop as a potential replacement for next.  I will be extremely disappointed if Beane does not find someone to fill that role.  Even if his preference is to sign Edmunds long term, he has to have a contingency plan in case his contract demands are too steep.

Edited February 18, 2022 by BarleyNY

[Buffalo_Stampede]

15 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

I absolutely hate the “Well, who is going to replace him?” argument.  It’s perfectly acceptable to understand that a player isn’t performing up to an acceptable standard for their position or contract.  As for replacements in general there’s not much to be said until free agency and the draft anyway.  Since Edmunds is here for the 2022 season we’re pretty much down to the draft - and non-premium picks at that - for his long term replacement.  I could see them adding a player like Quay Walker or Chad Muma to be his backup this season and develop as a potential replacement for next.  I will be extremely disappointed if Beane does not find someone to fill that role.  Even if his preference is to sign Edmunds long term, he has to have a contingency plan in case his contract demands are too steep.

What do you believe is worse, DL play or LB play? Do you believe the DL does an adequate job of controlling the line of scrimmage?

Edited February 18, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[DrDawkinstein]

7 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

I absolutely hate the “Well, who is going to replace him?” argument.  It’s perfectly acceptable to understand that a player isn’t performing up to an acceptable standard for their position or contract.  As for replacements in general there’s not much to be said until free agency and the draft anyway.  Since Edmunds is here for the 2022 season we’re pretty much down to the draft - and non-premium picks at that - for his long term replacement.  I could see them adding a player like Quay Walker or Chad Muma to be his backup this season and develop as a potential replacement for next.  I will be extremely disappointed if Beane does not find someone to fill that role.  Even if his preference is to sign Edmunds long term, he has to have a contingency plan in case his contract demands are too steep.

 

Klein stepped in and not only did alright, but immediately made some impact plays (tipped passes, stuffed runners, even an INT vs Carolina). And he is only getting $6M/yr which is less than HALF of what we'll be paying Edmunds going forward.

 

I dont think Klein would be the long term solution, but if it came right down to it, I'd rather have Klein and the extra $7-8M in cap space than Edmunds.

 

Based on his level of play, Edmunds isnt that difficult to replace.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

5 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Klein stepped in and not only did alright, but immediately made some impact plays (tipped passes, stuffed runners, even an INT vs Carolina). And he is only getting $6M/yr which is less than HALF of what we'll be paying Edmunds going forward.

 

I dont think Klein would be the long term solution, but if it came right down to it, I'd rather have Klein and the extra $7-8M in cap space than Edmunds.

 

Based on his level of play, Edmunds isnt that difficult to replace.

Klein stepped in for Milano. That position is set up to make more plays in this defense. The defense struggled for a while in 2020 without Milano. Edmunds played hurt all year. The defense improved a lot later in the 2020 season once Klein started playing better in place of Milano and Edmunds shoulder started feeling better.

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Klein stepped in for Milano. That position is set up to make more plays in this defense. The defense struggled for a while in 2020 without Milano. Edmunds played hurt all year. The defense improved a lot later in the 2020 season once Klein started playing better in place of Milano and Edmunds shoulder started feeling better.

 

Klein started in Edmunds spot for 2 games (Jets and Colts) while Edmunds was injured this year.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Klein started in Edmunds spot for 2 games (Jets and Colts) while Edmunds was injured this year.

Not a good argument.

[DrDawkinstein]

17 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Not a good argument.

 

He stepped in for Edmunds (true fact), and did just as well if not better than Tremaine usually does (subjective, but stats and film back it up).

 

Pretty good argument.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

7 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

He stepped in for Edmunds (true fact), and did just as well if not better than Tremaine usually does (subjective, but stats and film back it up).

 

Pretty good argument.

You're basing this on the Jets and Colts games? The worst defensive performance of the season and the Jets?

 

Improve the defensive line. Stop talking about linebackers.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

You're basing this on the Jets and Colts games? The worst defensive performance of the season and the Jets?

 

 

 

We wouldnt have done any better against the Colts with Tremaine in. So why pay Edmunds more than double just to do as bad a job? We already know Tremaine cant stop the run, and Klein is better at it.

 

Look. If we can bring him back on a deal like Milano's at $10M/yr, then I'm not against re-signing Edmunds. But I think we both can agree that is very unlikely, and he'll be more in the $13-15M range. So I'm fine moving on and spending that money on improving the DL in front of our LBs. Roll for a year with a player the likes of Klein, and an improved DL, and we dont miss a beat. imo. Then look to draft a replacement early.

 

Paying Edmunds top dollar when there are so many weaknesses in his game is a bad idea. He could easily be replaced with someone like Klein. Which was the point of this part of the discussion on this page.

[Brand J]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

You're basing this on the Jets and Colts games? The worst defensive performance of the season and the Jets?

 

 

Pretty tired arguing about Edmunds myself, he is who he is at this point and I’d prefer to move on if he seeks a contract north of Milano. But just like Edmunds can’t be blamed for total defensive collapses, Klein can’t either (your worst defensive performance of the season comment). Also, the Jets suck, yes, but so did many of the other QBs the Bills faced this year, wasn’t Edmunds a beneficiary of that as well? Against those poor QBs Edmunds got his hands on 4 pass breakups in 873 snaps, while Klein broke up 5 on 277. Im too lazy to dig into how many of those were passing snaps, but that’s a general comparison between the two. I’m not arguing that Klein is better, but Edmunds isn’t the impact defender you might think he is. What big time play has he made against a good QB? He has regressed every year in impact plays (or splash plays if you prefer that) since his rookie season. It’s a Star Lotulelei type of trajectory.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

We wouldnt have done any better against the Colts with Tremaine in. So why pay Edmunds more than double just to do as bad a job? We already know Tremaine cant stop the run, and Klein is better at it.

 

Look. If we can bring him back on a deal like Milano's at $10M/yr, then I'm not against re-signing Edmunds. But I think we both can agree that is very unlikely, and he'll be more in the $13-15M range. So I'm fine moving on and spending that money on improving the DL in front of our LBs. Roll for a year with a player the likes of Klein, and an improved DL, and we dont miss a beat. imo. Then look to draft a replacement early.

 

Paying Edmunds top dollar when there are so many weaknesses in his game is a bad idea. He could easily be replaced with someone like Klein. Which was the point of this part of the discussion on this page.

I can only shake my head at this analysis. The Bills defense as is constructed is not built to stop the run. Everything from scheme to the roster, it's not built for that. To sit here and say Edmunds is the reason is just lazy.

 

We have all pro safeties that take horrible angles defending the run. We have a DL the routinely gets moved off the ball in 1v1 matchups. Ed Oliver for the majority of the season was the only one that played physical at the point of attack. Late in the season we started to see Harrison Phillips step up.

 

I promise you, the LBs Edmunds and Milano are not a liability on the field. There's way too much traffic to navigate through.

 

That said there were definitely a handful of plays for Edmunds to make and he didn't make them. Not a lot, probably count them on one hand, but he didn't make them. 

[Dopey]

On 2/17/2022 at 9:54 AM, dave mcbride said:

This is an interesting conversation. My view on Edmunds is that he doesn't make a ton of big plays -- he's no Kuechly, although Kuechly was probably the best NFL LB of the past 15 years -- but what we don't see is how he messes up passing games for opponents. Passes are completed against him for sure, but a lot of passes don't come his way because of his range and ability to execute mid-range middle-of-the-field coverage. Opposing teams had a staggeringly low 65.3 passer rating vs. the Bills this season. That's unheard of in this day and age. Yeah, I know they played backups and a bunch of bad weather games, but still. My point is that the passes and lanes that are taken away by a rangy LB with a massive wingspan have helped the Bills attain their truly lofty status in pass defense. 

 

The issue for Edmunds -- and for the Bills in general -- is simply the Chiefs. They have the system, the speed guys, the QB, and--most importantly--the game changing TE who has a mind-meld with the elite QB on option routes to break down and expose the Bills scheme. No other team does. So much of what people are reacting to w/regard to Edmunds are those two playoff games vs. KC. I'd argue that the real problem was not having a true game-wrecking, sack-finishing d-lineman or two. We get pressure, sure, but we don't get sacks like the Chargers do or Tampa did vs. KC last year. Plays get extended, and vs. our matchup zone, KC's elite receivers will eventually get open and the QB will hit them.    

I'd argue that we should try and maintain our proven ability to hold opposing teams to a passer rating of below 70. Edmunds is a key part of that pass defense. That is a incredible stat and should win a ton of games for you. With regard to upholding that, Edmunds isn't the problem; the lack of a finishing d-lineman and one more high level corner are the issues at present. 

Anyway, when it comes to Edmunds, I feel like a lot of people don't look at the bigger context of our scheme. Moreover, if you're watching it on tv, it's very hard to see what he does in coverage schemes.

1st bolded: I see it every time I watch.

2nd bolded: PFF's top 5 defenses as of week 17 was:

#1 Bills, #2 Pats, #3 Cowboys, #4 Saints, #5 Broncos

 

The Pats played essentially the same schedule as we did.

The Cowboys played the WTF twice, the Giants twice and the eagles twice. Along with Carolina, N.O., Atlanta and the broncos. That's a worse list of QBs than what we played.

The Saints played Atlanta twice, Carolina twice, Miami, the Jets, Seattle without Russell Wilson, the WTF,  the Giants and NE with a rookie QB who most here say he sucks.

The Broncos started the season playing the Giants, Jags and Jets. They also played Pitt. with a washed up Ben, Cleveland without Baker, the WTF, Philly, and Detroit.

It's very weird how some hear only see us as playing a crap schedule. I guess all top 5 teams are paper lions when it comes to defense. WOW!

 

[Dkollidas]

I think now is the best time to extend him. He’s proven capable of running the defense. He’s still young. And you can sign him to a longer deal with a lot of built in roster bonuses and things that allow you to move cap around (similar to Allen’s). Also if they add a big bodied DT I could see his game taking a leap next year. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

14 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

Pretty tired arguing about Edmunds myself, he is who he is at this point and I’d prefer to move on if he seeks a contract north of Milano. But just like Edmunds can’t be blamed for total defensive collapses, Klein can’t either (your worst defensive performance of the season comment). Also, the Jets suck, yes, but so did many of the other QBs the Bills faced this year, wasn’t Edmunds a beneficiary of that as well? Against those poor QBs Edmunds got his hands on 4 pass breakups in 873 snaps, while Klein broke up 5 on 277. Im too lazy to dig into how many of those were passing snaps, but that’s a general comparison between the two. I’m not arguing that Klein is better, but Edmunds isn’t the impact defender you might think he is. What big time play has he made against a good QB? He has regressed every year in impact plays (or splash plays if you prefer that) since his rookie season. It’s a Star Lotulelei type of trajectory.

He's the defensive captain of a successful football team and a successful defense. That's what we're arguing about here. Should the Bills keep the defensive captain?

 

We're also talking about a player that never comes off the field. He's played almost every snap since 2018. The defense has finished 2, 3, 14, 1. So not only are we talking about getting rid of a defensive captain and a player that's always on the field, we've also been successful.

 

I think the answer to the extension question is simple. It depends on what he's asking for. If he wants Matt Milano money, yes you extend him. If he wants Darius Leonard money then you move him out. I think that decision should be made this offseason. I don't think his price goes down from whatever it is now. Make the decision this offseason. My guess is they sign him.

 

 

[dave mcbride]

15 minutes ago, Dopey said:

1st bolded: I see it every time I watch.

2nd bolded: PFF's top 5 defenses as of week 17 was:

#1 Bills, #2 Pats, #3 Cowboys, #4 Saints, #5 Broncos

 

The Pats played essentially the same schedule as we did.

The Cowboys played the WTF twice, the Giants twice and the eagles twice. Along with Carolina, N.O., Atlanta and the broncos. That's a worse list of QBs than what we played.

The Saints played Atlanta twice, Carolina twice, Miami, the Jets, Seattle without Russell Wilson, the WTF,  the Giants and NE with a rookie QB who most here say he sucks.

The Broncos started the season playing the Giants, Jags and Jets. They also played Pitt. with a washed up Ben, Cleveland without Baker, the WTF, Philly, and Detroit.

It's very weird how some hear only see us as playing a crap schedule. I guess all top 5 teams are paper lions when it comes to defense. WOW!

 

It's not just the schedule; it's also that the Bills played in nine lousy-weather games.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:

It's not just the schedule; it's also that the Bills played in nine lousy-weather games.

Bills defense has been basically a top 5 defense over the last 4 seasons. I would love to see a combined ranking since 2018.

[Dopey]

49 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

It's not just the schedule; it's also that the Bills played in nine lousy-weather games.

 

We play in Buffalo, it's a given we're going to play in lousy weather. Every year. We've been a top defense the past few years with this weather and tougher schedules. My point was, this " weak schedule" claim can be made by most fans of an NFL team. If we didn't play well vs. these teams, people here would complain about that and rightfully so. But to complain about us taking care of business vs. these teams is just stupid. IMO. I do agree with everything else you wrote, but this weak schedule/lousy weather stuff is getting old. 

[dave mcbride]

19 minutes ago, Dopey said:

 

We play in Buffalo, it's a given we're going to play in lousy weather. Every year. We've been a top defense the past few years with this weather and tougher schedules. My point was, this " weak schedule" claim can be made by most fans of an NFL team. If we didn't play well vs. these teams, people here would complain about that and rightfully so. But to complain about us taking care of business vs. these teams is just stupid. IMO. I do agree with everything else you wrote, but this weak schedule/lousy weather stuff is getting old. 

I'm not complaining, and regardless of mitigating factors holding opponents to a 65.3 rating is pretty amazing.