Thought experiment

[GoBills808]

Interested in folks’ perspective: If the QBs switched teams, what’s the final score?

 

I’m saying 50-35 Chiefs

[Dr. Who]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Interested in folks’ perspective: If the QBs switched teams, what’s the final score?

 

I’m saying 50-35 Chiefs

You're probably right, but I feel kind of sick trying that experiment.

[Simon]

42-36 KC

 

These two QB's are so evenly matched right now it might not have made any difference in the outcome.

[BuffaloBillies]

Even better... switch coaches who wins?

[sullim4]

Just now, Simon said:

42-36 KC

 

These two QB's are so evenly matched right now it might not have made any difference in the outcome.

 

I think the more interesting question is - did the team hold back either quarterback.

 

McD, for all the credit he rightly deserves for turning the culture around, has had a horrible track record of in-game coaching.  His win percentage on challenges, as well as how his defense handles end of game situations (Arizona last year, KC this year) makes me think he needs someone like Ernie Adams is to Belichick.  He needs someone in the booth that isn't wrapped up in the emotion of the moment to provide input on stuff like this.

 

I personally think that Allen + Kelce + Hill would've had a field day.  Kelce represents a huge upgrade over Knox, and Hill is a #1 that has McKenzie-type speed.  Add Pringle, CEH, and McKinnon and I just think their skill players are better than Diggs, Beasley, Davis, McKenzie, and Singletary.

[ToGoGo]

It's Allen and it's not even close. Mahomes is great but he's been babied his entire career. By this time next year everyone will finally see it. 

 

This year is the last time Mahomes will be considered the better QB, or even an equal. 

[Blainorama5]

This experiment is hurting my brain.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, sullim4 said:

 

  Kelce represents a huge upgrade over Knox.

I'm interested in this.  I get that Kelce's performance is a huge upgrade over Knox's performance, but why is that?   Except for perhaps his brains, I don't see the difference.   I mean, Kelce's a little bigger and maybe is a little better blocker, but that's not why Kelce is so much more valuable.   Kelce isn't some superstar at getting separation - you watch his routes, and besides making good reads, he just isn't a guy who leaves defenders in his dust. 

 

I think it's scheme.   I don't know what the Chiefs do, but I think they really take advantage of the fact that Hill gets doubled a lot.   I think their scheme is to put a lot of additional speed on the field, forcing the defenses to respect deep threats on every play, besides Hill, and forcing them to respect their speed out of the backfield.   I'm guessing that the result of showing that kind of attach is that there's a lot of middle for Kelce to run in.  Depending on the leverage the defender plays, Kelce makes a cut, and Mahomes reads the cut and throws.  

 

Frankly, it's one of things that's kept me from being a big Daboll fan.  It just seems to me that given the same kind of openings, Knox would catch a lot of balls.  With Sanders, McKenzie and Stevenson, the Bills had the speed to play a similar game.  I think it's coaching.  

[Billl]

For starters, it would have been played in OP.  I don’t know how that affects the outcome, though.

[TH3]

7 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

It's Allen and it's not even close. Mahomes is great but he's been babied his entire career. By this time next year everyone will finally see it. 

 

This year is the last time Mahomes will be considered the better QB, or even an equal. 

Seems like alot of throws Mahomes makes...the guys are "college" open

[The Frankish Reich]

20 minutes ago, Simon said:

42-36 KC

 

These two QB's are so evenly matched right now it might not have made any difference in the outcome.

Agreed. I kind of hoped Sunday's game would put an end to "Media loves Mahomes, doesn't give Josh respect" and "Josh is better than Mahomes" or vice versa.

You might as well be asking about Brady vs. Peyton, c. 2007. They are both on track (serious injury aside, and thankfully those kind of career threatening injuries are largely in the past, although Alex Smith would disagree) for Hall of Fame careers. Enough with all that.

[Patrick Duffy]

I'm going to go with....score is same, BUT we win the coin flip

[ToGoGo]

6 minutes ago, TH3 said:

Seems like alot of throws Mahomes makes...the guys are "college" open

 

You see it. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

5 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I'm interested in this.  I get that Kelce's performance is a huge upgrade over Knox's performance, but why is that?   Except for perhaps his brains, I don't see the difference.   I mean, Kelce's a little bigger and maybe is a little better blocker, but that's not why Kelce is so much more valuable.   Kelce isn't some superstar at getting separation - you watch his routes, and besides making good reads, he just isn't a guy who leaves defenders in his dust.

 

JMO but I think Kelce is a still a far superior route runner to Knox (though Knox improved greatly this season). 

 

It's not that he's a speedster, it's the brains.  He has that Beasley-like gift for dissecting a zone and seeing where the gaps are likely to be, understanding how the D is playing them and what they're likely to give up, and getting there.

 

Then, he's unabashedly physical as a route runner.  We started to see more physicality from Knox, but last season for a big athletic guy Knox just wasn't very physical.  Kelce will break arms and ankles and put you on your ass if you're not careful.

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

This year is the last time Mahomes will be considered the better QB, or even an equal. 

And I agree with this.  I'd take Allen right now, and I think he's going to keep growing.   In a couple of years, he's going to be an assassin.  Remember, Allen is a year behind in development.  

 

Mahomes has great athleticism, and he also understands their scheme and processes information really well.  However, I think he needs a great offensive coordinator to create the scheme.  The league will catch up with the scheme.   

 

Allen also has great, but different athleticism, and this was the first season where Allen really seemed to have mastered the scheme.  He also processes really well.  Unlike Mahomes, however, Allen just needs a good coordinator.   A superficial example of this is that Allen played Mahomes even the other night, when the sideline battle was Daboll vs. Reid.   That's not a fair fight, but Allen made it even steven.  When Reid retires, I think Mahomes will come back to earth.  

[ToGoGo]

1 minute ago, Shaw66 said:

And I agree with this.  I'd take Allen right now, and I think he's going to keep growing.   In a couple of years, he's going to be an assassin.  Remember, Allen is a year behind in development.  

 

Mahomes has great athleticism, and he also understands their scheme and processes information really well.  However, I think he needs a great offensive coordinator to create the scheme.  The league will catch up with the scheme.   

 

Allen also has great, but different athleticism, and this was the first season where Allen really seemed to have mastered the scheme.  He also processes really well.  Unlike Mahomes, however, Allen just needs a good coordinator.   A superficial example of this is that Allen played Mahomes even the other night, when the sideline battle was Daboll vs. Reid.   That's not a fair fight, but Allen made it even steven.  When Reid retires, I think Mahomes will come back to earth.  

 

Shaw, if Kelce loses a step, how much do you think it would affect Mahomes? Do you think he could maintain his level of play with a good TE, instead of a great TE? Or do you think Reid will adjust the scheme significantly?

[The Frankish Reich]

4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

I think it's scheme.   I don't know what the Chiefs do, but I think they really take advantage of the fact that Hill gets doubled a lot.   I think their scheme is to put a lot of additional speed on the field, forcing the defenses to respect deep threats on every play, besides Hill, and forcing them to respect their speed out of the backfield.   I'm guessing that the result of showing that kind of attach is that there's a lot of middle for Kelce to run in.  Depending on the leverage the defender plays, Kelce makes a cut, and Mahomes reads the cut and throws. 

I think that's right. One thing I can say for the Chiefs and Mahomes - there's no way his top receiver and TE are going to get just 5 touches, which is what Diggs and Knox got. I get it, other guys stepped up, with an incredible game from Gabe. But still ... they get the ball in the hands of their playmakers who got them there with a bunch of motion/crossing routes, etc. Daboll overall is a really good offensive coordinator. But Andy Reid (and I will give the forgotten Eric Bieniemy some credit too) is just one of the offensive geniuses in the history of the NFL, particularly with respect to the passing game. The short list: Hank Stram, Tom Landry, Don Coryell, Bill Walsh/Sam Wyche, Andy Reid ...

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

JMO but I think Kelce is a still a far superior route runner to Knox (though Knox improved greatly this season). 

 

It's not that he's a speedster, it's the brains.  He has that Beasley-like gift for dissecting a zone and seeing where the gaps are likely to be, understanding how the D is playing them and what they're likely to give up, and getting there.

 

Then, he's unabashedly physical as a route runner.  We started to see more physicality from Knox, but last season for a big athletic guy Knox just wasn't very physical.  Kelce will break arms and ankles and put you on your ass if you're not careful.

Thanks, Hap.  I see this.   They talk about how Kelce is a former QB and sees the field so well.  It may be that Kelce runs a lot of option routes, where he makes the read and cut, and then Mahomes reads him.   

 

Still, why can't Knox and Allen do that?   Is it really so hard?   I think part of it is what I said, which is that the Chiefs create a lot of space for Kelce to work in, so that when he sees his option there's a lot of room to run.  

 

Kelce is just not so physically impressive, in terms of speed, quickness, or change of direction, that he should be doing things that Knox can't do.  

[The Frankish Reich]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's not that he's a speedster, it's the brains. 

This too. Some of the great pass catching TEs haven't been among the most athletically gifted - the Jason Wittens, Dallas Clarks, etc.

[Shaw66]

2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I think that's right. One thing I can say for the Chiefs and Mahomes - there's no way his top receiver and TE are going to get just 5 touches, which is what Diggs and Knox got. I get it, other guys stepped up, with an incredible game from Gabe. But still ... they get the ball in the hands of their playmakers who got them there with a bunch of motion/crossing routes, etc. Daboll overall is a really good offensive coordinator. But Andy Reid (and I will give the forgotten Eric Bieniemy some credit too) is just one of the offensive geniuses in the history of the NFL, particularly with respect to the passing game. The short list: Hank Stram, Tom Landry, Don Coryell, Bill Walsh/Sam Wyche, Andy Reid ...

I think you're right about this.  Apparently, in the overtime, Mahomes was saying "I'm coming to you, 10."   Mahomes knew he'd be open.  

 

Now, Diggs doesn't have that awesome top-end speed, so DBs can play him tighter, but there aren't many guys who can get separation like Diggs.  There's no way Allen is saying "I'm coming to you, 14," because he knows Diggs may be blanketed.  

 

And I kept waiting for the ball to go to Knox downfield.  Were the CHiefs doubling Diggs and Knox?