The Great Squib Kickoff Controversy - Have reviewed the film like it was Zapruder

[BobbyC81]

On 1/26/2022 at 5:02 AM, oldmanfan said:

Then why even mention something so stupid?

 

Someone made the wrong call, and McD is not going to throw that person or persons under the bus.  Plain and simple. As for squibbing, Sal on WGR said the other day he was right next to Jay Feely on the sideline and asked him if they should squib kick.  And Feely said no because you can't predict what would happen on a return.  Felly said you put it in the end zone and have your D stop them for 13 seconds.   Others like Romo had different thoughts, which shows one thing.  THERE WERE NO ABSOLUTE CORRECT ANSWERS.  Let's say they squib or pooch kick to around the 10 yard line.  They run it back for maybe 10-15 yards in 3 seconds, fall down.  Then they have three time out with plays to move into FG position, with Mahomes.  What are the odds that he doesn't get that done?  No different than him having the ball like he did on the 25.  And the reason for that is because our defense played to not lose, instead of to win.  The answer to why we lost has nothing to do with the kick.  It has to do with the fact that the D could not, or more accurately would not, play aggressively enough to stop them from gaining 50 yards in 5 seconds.  The way the D played those last two plays, I have no doubt the Chiefs could have moved into FG position even starting from their own 10 yard line.

 

If I had to guess, McD told Farwell to go normal kick and Bass did what he was told.  And the person he does not want to throw under the bus is Frazier, because Frazier's calls cost us the game, and he doesn't want to throw him under the bus when he's getting HC consideration.

 

If Frazier doesn't get a HC gig, then McD either needs to make a change, or he and Frazier need to decide their defense is going to have a more aggressive mindset next yera.  You can't talk about being more aggressive on offense, and then play so passively on defense.  When you have a QB like Josh and as high powered an offense as the Bills do, you can afford to be more aggressive and take more chances on defense.

Frazier is getting a 2nd interview with the Giants on Friday.  You’d think the Giants would be aware of what happened in this game, even if they didn’t watch it. I’d expect that they’d ask him about it to evaluate his decision making.  Unless he says it was McD’s decision, I don’t know how he explains it in a positive way.  It would be surprising to me if he gets any of the head coaching jobs.

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, BobbyC81 said:

Frazier is getting a 2nd interview with the Giants on Friday.  You’d think the Giants would be aware of what happened in this game, even if they didn’t watch it. I’d expect that they’d ask him about it to evaluate his decision making.  Unless he says it was McD’s decision, I don’t know how he explains it in a positive way.  It would be surprising to me if he gets any of the head coaching jobs.

I agree.  It was an unconscionable failure in those last 13 seconds

[newcam2012]

On 1/25/2022 at 1:41 PM, Steptide said:

Yes it matters. But let's say they squib it, kc grabs the ball and runs to the 40 with 9 seconds left, then Mahomes throws to kelce and they get in fg range. The end result is the same. My point was starting at the 25 with 13 seconds is an almost near impossible task to get down field. It was and epic fail on the defense to allow it to happen. 

True it was an epic fail by the defense. However, it was an epuc fail to kick it in the end zone too. That kick can't elapse any time off the clock which was critical. Whether a squib or high kicked would have  almost certainly done is take valuable time off the clock. A highly effective one may have taken off 4, 5, or 6 seconds. The risk reward says you don't kick it in the end zone. 

Edited January 27, 2022 by newcam2012

[Big Blitz]

This is pretty much the best indication they called a squib kick.  What happened on the field with Bass is still unknown.  Has anyone heard from him?  

 

I don't want to blame him either this was a collective meltdown - but I can much better deal with it knowing we did not call for it to get kicked out into the end zone

 

 

 

The ball lands right at this second and not a Bill in sight.  As Sal said today on kickoffs straight kickoffs you are taught to run to the end zone no matter what.  No one made it to the 30!

Edited January 28, 2022 by Big Blitz

[NoSaint]

On 1/26/2022 at 10:22 AM, GaryPinC said:

So which was the critical mistake?  Because you seem to be fixated on the kickoff while many of us feel the defensive strategy was the largest problem/blunder and the kickoff was the more minor mistake.

hand in hand.

 

13 seconds gives 2 two active plays and a fga 

 

a kick return and single pass is the most reliable way to avoid giving up points in 2 touches. Sure you could’ve seen a freak throw ala the diggs catch in minny to knock out the Saints… but almost certainly not
 

 

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

This is pretty much the best indication they called a squib kick.  What happened on the field with Bass is still unknown.  Has anyone heard from him?  

 

I don't want to blame him either this was a collective meltdown - but I can much better deal with it knowing we did not call for it to get kicked out into the end zone

 

 

 

The ball lands right at this second and not a Bill in sight.  As Sal said today on kickoffs straight kickoffs you are taught to run to the end zone no matter what.  No one made it to the 30!

Or they know it is a touch back because with a 7 yard approach all Bass kicks go through the endzone.

[Big Blitz]

I just watched 3 kick offs in the game and each one regardless where the ball landed in the end zone there were 3, 4, 5 guys sprinting all the way to the end zone.  Nothing close to that on the kick off. 

 

Yea I'm convinced now we did call a squibb or just not kick it in the end zone.  I think this is more important then people realize.  The team has to know head man made the right call.  If what's happened since is them trying to both not make themselves look dumb and protect one guy (Bass) I get it.  As egregious as the defense was - I'm not nearly as crushed if I know McD wanted the squibb.  13 seconds for Mahomes to get 40 yards with 2 timeouts is much more probable then those stupid "odds of winning at such and such time" probabilities.  

 

What happened between making the decision and the kickoff - I can't even wrap my head around what went wrong.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Big Blitz

[Big Blitz]

14 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Or they know it is a touch back because with a 7 yard approach all Bass kicks go through the endzone.

 

 

Only other non squibb play would be inviting a return on a shallow kick to say the 5-10 yard line; ran to the 30 - seems way too risky to allow a return to the 40.

 

A return from the 5 to the 30/35 was most ideal.  That's most likely 6-7 seconds off the clock and time for only 1 play.  

[st pete gogolak]

OK, engaged in a bit of nerdness and looked at all of our kickoffs during the regular season.  Excluding touchbacks, kicks returned from the end zone and one onsides kick, there were 31 kickoffs fielded between the 1 and the 19 yard lines.  Excluding kickoffs fielded between the 1 and the 5 (because of the chance kick returner would let it go and hope it made it into the endzone), there were 13 kickoffs fielded between the 7 and the 19.  Average yard line ball caught - 9.5 yard line.  Average start line - 23 (not counting two penalties called on the return team).  Worst result for ball caught was the 19.  Worst starting field position 32.  

 

I'm convinced Reid would have instructed Pringle to fair catch a short kickoff.  If he does anything other than a fair catch, and doesn't get any farther than 30 - 35, there's maybe 7 seconds left and KC has ONE play to move 30ish yards to get into field goal position.  If he calls fair catch, say between the 10 and 15, no time runs off the clock but that's an extra 10 or 15 yards KC has to cover in the 13 seconds.  That's 45 or 50 yards in two plays in order to try a 57 yard field goal.

 

Of course, Pringle could have busted a return and taken to the house.  That would have been a total outlier given our special team play this season.  Of course, given what our defense did, could Mahones covered 50 yards in two plays?  Sure.  He covered 45 in two to get the FG.  But there is no question that kicking it into the end zone was the wrong call.

[Big Blitz]

14 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said:

But there is no question that kicking it into the end zone was the wrong call.

 

 

Which if we are to believe McD - and based on what the KO team - it wasn't the call.

 

I think they're waiting for time to go by for everyone to cool down before Bass talks about wth happened 

[Billsfan1972]

Then again, what about the next two plays?  How communication could so be botched is unbelievable.  We're doing a short/squibb kick, let's not tell Bass.  My analysis was the approach and there is no doubt Bass is kicking it out of the endzone.  

 

They royally f'd up 13 seconds, end of story!!!!

Edited January 28, 2022 by Billsfan1972

[Beerball]

On 1/25/2022 at 3:38 PM, Billsfan1972 said:

I have posted in other threads so apologies.  And yes still pissed at all the mistakes in the last 13 seconds.

 

I can accept (though inexcusable) that there was miscommunication (and that is an epic fail), but not that Bass was not trying to kick it out of the endzone.

 

Yes in another thread....  I had to go back and watch every kick......  

 

Bass was kicking into the endzone.  His approach was 7-8 yards.....

 

The 29-26 kick, same approach 7-8 yards, After the 75 yard TD, he actually did a 5-6 yard approach and in the end zone.   After HT, 5-6 yards and through the endzone.....  

 

Just before HT and the TD, 7 yard approach and touchback.  At 7-0, again 7 yards and he did not catch it clean and would have bounced in the endzone but Pringle fielded the line drive and returned it to the 25.  

 

No chance he was told to kick it short and blew it!!!!!! 

 

A good pop up or squib kick goes to the 5-10 yard line.  Squibs are often muffed & pop up kicks usually means defense is downfield to defend.

 

You want to know how many short kicks (to the 5-15 yard line) were returned for TD's in 2021 in the NFL (I counted 1,200 kick returns)????

 

0!!!!!!! 

 

Kicks returned were all line drives to the goal line and returned 98-102 yards.

 

Bass was so proficient that the Bills were third in Kickoff defense & the longest return was 31 yards.  That would have eaten 7 seconds minimum.  

 

When he did those short kicks he approached them as FGs, has a 60+ yard leg, and would take a 3 or less step drop.  A 60 yard kick goes to the 5 yard line.  

 

So let's say Bass does kick it to the 5, best return is to the 36 & 7 seconds off the clock.  That gives KC one play to get to the 32 (which is where they ended up) or another 32 yards in 6 seconds.

 

If an average return they are at the 22-25 yard line and 7-8 seconds left.

 

The math is simple, you kick it to the 5 or squib it and eat clock.

 

 

 

[newcam2012]

12 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Or they know it is a touch back because with a 7 yard approach all Bass kicks go through the endzone.

I think this is correct. I think there is little to no chance Bass wasn't told to kick it into the end zone. At the very least, you would have seen him getting his butt rimmed on the sidelines. This topic is really just an excuse to cover up the Bills coaching staffs collasal blunder. 

12 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

I just watched 3 kick offs in the game and each one regardless where the ball landed in the end zone there were 3, 4, 5 guys sprinting all the way to the end zone.  Nothing close to that on the kick off. 

 

Yea I'm convinced now we did call a squibb or just not kick it in the end zone.  I think this is more important then people realize.  The team has to know head man made the right call.  If what's happened since is them trying to both not make themselves look dumb and protect one guy (Bass) I get it.  As egregious as the defense was - I'm not nearly as crushed if I know McD wanted the squibb.  13 seconds for Mahomes to get 40 yards with 2 timeouts is much more probable then those stupid "odds of winning at such and such time" probabilities.  

 

What happened between making the decision and the kickoff - I can't even wrap my head around what went wrong.

Don't be in denial. The coach blew the game in that 13 seconds span. It's clear and obvious. Why are so many making unfounded excuses? I like McD but it is what it is. I'm sure he just like us will be haunted by this collapse for generations. 

[newcam2012]

5 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Then again, what about the next two plays?  How communication could so be botched is unbelievable.  We're doing a short/squibb kick, let's not tell Bass.  My analysis was the approach and there is no doubt Bass is kicking it out of the endzone.  

 

They royally f'd up 13 seconds, end of story!!!!

Well said. I concur.

[Billsfan1972]

Another stoopid question....  Don't ST/Kickoff teams do a huddle when they go out on the field (TV never shows it) before the kick?  And if they do, wouldn't Bass say what he is doing on the kick?  If he says kicking it through the endzone and they were told sqibb/short kick, someone says "WTF we were told squibb/short!!!".

 

The more I think about it, the more my head hurts... ... 

[Big Blitz]

Has anyone talked to Bass??

[Alphadawg7]

On 1/25/2022 at 12:38 PM, Billsfan1972 said:

I have posted in other threads so apologies.  And yes still pissed at all the mistakes in the last 13 seconds.

 

I can accept (though inexcusable) that there was miscommunication (and that is an epic fail), but not that Bass was not trying to kick it out of the endzone.

 

Yes in another thread....  I had to go back and watch every kick......  

 

Bass was kicking into the endzone.  His approach was 7-8 yards.....

 

The 29-26 kick, same approach 7-8 yards, After the 75 yard TD, he actually did a 5-6 yard approach and in the end zone.   After HT, 5-6 yards and through the endzone.....  

 

Just before HT and the TD, 7 yard approach and touchback.  At 7-0, again 7 yards and he did not catch it clean and would have bounced in the endzone but Pringle fielded the line drive and returned it to the 25.  

 

No chance he was told to kick it short and blew it!!!!!! 

 

A good pop up or squib kick goes to the 5-10 yard line.  Squibs are often muffed & pop up kicks usually means defense is downfield to defend.

 

You want to know how many short kicks (to the 5-15 yard line) were returned for TD's in 2021 in the NFL (I counted 1,200 kick returns)????

 

0!!!!!!! 

 

Kicks returned were all line drives to the goal line and returned 98-102 yards.

 

Bass was so proficient that the Bills were third in Kickoff defense & the longest return was 31 yards.  That would have eaten 7 seconds minimum.  

 

When he did those short kicks he approached them as FGs, has a 60+ yard leg, and would take a 3 or less step drop.  A 60 yard kick goes to the 5 yard line.  

 

So let's say Bass does kick it to the 5, best return is to the 36 & 7 seconds off the clock.  That gives KC one play to get to the 32 (which is where they ended up) or another 32 yards in 6 seconds.

 

If an average return they are at the 22-25 yard line and 7-8 seconds left.

 

The math is simple, you kick it to the 5 or squib it and eat clock.

 

 

 

Here is the issue thought:  Squib kick likely eats 4 to 6 seconds and ends up around the 35 or 40.  And after the kickoff, they had 13 seconds and after one play were around the 40 eating up the same amount of time.  

 

If Frazier runs the same D after the squib giving Kelce that read for the seam and the play happens the same, it is the same result.  

 

So there is no guarantee here that a squib kick changes the outcome.  

 

It was a mistake by someone that Bass did not get the squib kick call, but end of the day, there is no assurances the result is different.  Kelce saw what Frazier trotted out there, told Mahomes if they play it like that he can get the seam.  Mahomes saw it was the same formation after the TO, yelled to Kelce to do it at the LOS and they got a big play to get into FG range.  And that wasn't the end of his FG range either, could have come up shorter and still been within the range of Butker.  

 

It was a series of errors, most compounded by the defensive play call by Frazier.  

 

Edited January 28, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[Captain_Quint]

On 1/26/2022 at 5:08 PM, Malazan said:

 

What makes you think the team doesn't know any of this?

I didn't really know until that McKenzie interview today. He said that he didn't know what the mixup was and that it hadn't been discussed. 

 

I had hoped that they had some sort of sit down after the game but eventually I'm sure they will discuss as a team. 

 

I don't pretend to know why it hasn't been discussed, but if I put myself in a players shoes, they deserve an explanation before they go back out there. I would think it would affect a players ability to buy-in to a coaching staff if they don't fully trust that they can do their jobs and not blow it when it's all on the line. 

[Billsfan1972]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Here is the issue thought:  Squib kick likely eats 4 to 6 seconds and ends up around the 35 or 40.  And after the kickoff, they had 13 seconds and after one play were around the 40 eating up the same amount of time.  

 

If Frazier runs the same D after the squib giving Kelce that read for the seam and the play happens the same, it is the same result.  

 

So there is no guarantee here that a squib kick changes the outcome.  

 

It was a mistake by someone that Bass did not get the squib kick call, but end of the day, there is no assurances the result is different.  Kelce saw what Frazier trotted out there, told Mahomes if they play it like that he can get the seam.  Mahomes saw it was the same formation after the TO, yelled to Kelce to do it at the LOS and they got a big play to get into FG range.  And that wasn't the end of his FG range either, could have come up shorter and still been within the range of Butker.  

 

It was a series of errors, most compounded by the defensive play call by Frazier.  

 

Or if properly defenced and kicked, the 25-30 or shorter.  Squibb or kick short of the endzone better then Mahomes and no coverage.

[st pete gogolak]

I guess now I'm wondering exactly what we are talking about with a squib kick.  Some one above said it would take 4 - 6 seconds off the clock.  That wouldn't be right.  Again, got to believe instructions were to fair catch a ball in the air or immediately call yourself down with a squib.  The later takes - what?  - one or two seconds off the clock?  And where on the field does the squib go?  Between the 20 and 30?  Say the 25 and you take two seconds off the clock.  Butker kicks the field goal with one second on the clock.  The kickoff didn't help but the unbelievably bad defense was the true culprit.  Poyer, Hyde and Milano picked a bad time to have a bad game.  Edmunds was useless.  I won't be sorry to see him go.