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Posted
3 hours ago, ganesh said:

I think the replacement for both will be Stevenson or someone in the draft.

 

Stevenson?  What has he shown you that leads you to believe he would be an upgrade?

 

Yeah, he ran a fast 40 time.  But in a short gig of 14 PR and 5 KR over 5 games, he had 2 fumbles and if I'm not mistaken, a couple more muffs.  He also appeared to have no field vision based on his tendency to run into the butts of his blockers, and he didn't appear to play "up to" his 40 time.

 

Now maybe he's just got a learning curve - I'm sure the Bills haven't given up on him at all.  But I'm equally sure they don't plan to count on him as either a KR/PR or as a slot receiver next season.

 

I think it's very telling that McKenzie won the KR job back for the playoffs.

 

3 hours ago, ganesh said:

This season, we had Diggs, Sanders, Davis and Beasley as top four receives along with Knox.  There really was no space for Isiah until injury stuck us in the NE game.

 

That's part of it.   But there's sort of a "mystery wrapped in an enigma" about Isaiah McKenzie.  I'm going to muse back and forth here:

On the first hand, when there's a question about Beasley's availability due to injury, McDermott and Daboll always say that they have "full confidence in McKenzie to run all the routes Beasley runs".

 

On the other hand, when the rubber meets the road, Daboll's game day decision has been "Beasley with smashed ribs over McKenzie" or "Beasley with broken fibula over McKenzie".

 

On the first hand, when McKenzie has gotten his chances as in the Miami game 2020 and the 2nd NE game 2021, he has killed it, and his teammates say "no one here is surprised, we see what he does every day" and "on another team, he'd be starting" and "that boy a Problem" and "all he has done is work and put his head down

 

On the other hand, we have a first-hand report here of McKenzie body-catching balls during warmup before a game, and (I never have gotten an answer as to source) that McKenzie was said to have bad practice habits and be muffing or fumbling in practice.   One can work hard, but not right.  One has to do both.

 

What's clear is that the coaches (not just McDermott, but also Daboll) haven't seem to trust him completely, and that may be based on something we don't see (practice and meeting room habits).  On the other hand, sometimes (presumably based on practice and meeting room) coaches appear to develop weird fixations on players who can't cut it on Sunday (*cough* Nathan Peterman *cough* Vlad Ducasse).

 

McKenzie has 100%, beyond doubt improved since arriving in Buffalo.  When he got here, he could NOT run routes.  He could not release against sticky coverage.  He could not make sharp, ankle breaking cuts.  Now he can run routes, and he can release and cut against most DBs.  Add that to his speed, and players have taken note: "(Isaiah) is a real matchup problem.  I won't lie to you, he is." 

He can't read the defense and find soft spot in the zone or run option routes the way Beasley can; his great game against NE came when they were covering him outside, man2man, and he just ran away from them (then he got some good catches in a later game where they expected that, and he cut and ran a different route, so that isn't all he can do). 

 

I kind of have the feeling that McKenzie is a handful to coach and at times, his own worst enemy.  He works out like a beast in off season, but largely on his own and not at the high-end "Receiver Factory" /"House of Athlete" specialized places Diggs uses, designed to help him release and cut better and run better routes.  McK said in an interview "I'm just a little guy, I have to hold onto the ball however I can" which could translate to "I'm not being coachable about ball security".

 

So I don't know.  I don't think McKenzie has necessarily peaked in the NFL.  But I don't know if he's going to invest in himself the right way and perceive what his gaps are and keep growing.  Beane has commented on the need for speed but also to be football players, to have instincts and be able to play; McKenzie has shown he's not just fast, he can ball, No Doubt.  He can block, he can tackle, he can take a hit.

 

I think there's a double-edged sword for guys who have McKenzie's background, which is having nobody in his corner but himself; he hasn't had family supporting him and finding him extra coaching or elite WR camps or tutors or SAT prep, his grandma was just trying to see that they ate and he didn't get shot.   Guys like that have to be hard-headed and lean into their own sense of self-belief and "against all odds" mentality.  But that also makes it hard to hear coaches who say "you need to do this not that" because you've heard it before and you've flown past it fueled by your own hard work so who knows if they have your interests at heart?

 

My personal belief is that the Bills should try to re-up McKenzie and offer him a multi-year deal with some signing bonus and with performance incentives, to give him some security to invest in his own skills with high-level coaching.  Go do that hand-eye training stuff that Knox did.  Spend the whole off season at the Receiver Factory.  On the other hand, a lot depends upon how Dorsey and now Brady and Kromer (if he's taking over the run game) see him.  It might be to McKenzie's benefit to go somewhere else, if he wants a chance to start in the slot and they just don't see him as a potential starter.

 

The NFL right now is a "have and have not" situation.  There are about 32 WR on deals with AAV >$10k.  There are a double handful (~10) guys who are either well-paid specialists like Beasley, or guys on one-year 'prove its' like Sanders. Then there are high-round rookies getting well paid towards the end of their deals. 

 

There may not be a lot of cap space for guys like McKenzie who have shown they can play when they've gotten a chance, but who are older and haven't established themselves as able to start throughout a season.

 

 

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Posted
1 hour ago, FilthyBeast said:

I'm still not sure why anyone believes McKenzie is some sort of drop in replacement for Beasely or is a 700+ yard WR in the waiting.

 

It's no secret this regime has misused players and not been the best evaluators of what talent they actually have on hand, but there is nothing in McKenzie's body of work to suggest he's anything more than utility/depth WR in this league and the Pats game was merely an outlier to this point.

 

Long story short, it's time to move on and think bigger and if he goes to the Giants with Daboll and has marginally better production there good for them.

Any time he's been used he produces. For whatever reason we don't use him. Like Bates. 

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Posted

Get Cordarell Patterson instead, dude upped his game in a major way. He is basically Deboo Samuel-light, and just imagine Josh with a versatile weapon like that at his disposal.

 

Diggs, Davis, Patterson, another value FA like Crowder, then draft pick, Hodgins, Stevenson, battle it out for remaining roster spots.

 

 

Posted
2 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

It could be a cole beasely situation who shined when he got to play with Josh.  Cole was langishing on the Dallas bench before he got here.

 

No he wasn't.

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Posted
45 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:


Mac is a great gadget WR but I do agree with this assessment. Even if they cut Beasley for cap reasons and let Max walk it isn’t like there aren’t solid options at the WR position in free agency and the draft to replace both.

 

Good enough, who are they?  Go

 

Not intended as snark, but a lot of times folks do come here and say stuff like that and when asked to stand and deliver, it's not thought through.

Upthread we have suggestions of Cordarelle Patterson and Crowder.  Considering that Spotrac suggests Crowder is in line for a $12M/yr payday and a 4 year contract, that doesn't seem likely; Patterson is given a market value of $9M/2 yrs.  Both together seem like air dreaming.  (I know this is not what you yourself are suggesting, I'm just making the point that sometimes people don't put a lot of thought into the "lots of options" thing)

 

16 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Any time he's been used he produces. For whatever reason we don't use him. Like Bates. 

 

I think that's a bit forgetful.  McKenzie has had a couple amazing games as a WR.  He has also had games where he misses catchable balls or fails to get separation.   He has had amazing KR/PR many of which were cancelled by stupid-ass penalties.  He has also had games where he muffs, and then That Fumble.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Good enough, who are they?  Go

 

Not intended as snark, but a lot of times folks do come here and say stuff like that and when asked to stand and deliver, it's not thought through.

 

I think that's a bit forgetful.  McKenzie has had a couple amazing games as a WR.  He has also had games where he misses catchable balls or fails to get separation.

He has had amazing KR/PR many of which were cancelled by stupid-ass penalties.  He has also had games where he muffs, and then That Fumble.

 

 

That can be said about every player in the league.

 

Diggs has missed catchable balls and has failed to get separation at times.  Had stuff called back by bad penalties.  But for the most part he produces. And no before anyone says it. I'm not calling McKenzie, Diggs

 

But Tbh I'm not sure what you're trying to say. 

Edited by Not at the table Karlos
Posted
3 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

It could be a cole beasely situation who shined when he got to play with Josh.  Cole was langishing on the Dallas bench before he got here.

 

That's just Wrong.  His three last years in Dallas, Beasley got 57%, 57%, and 66% of the snaps, and put up 837, 314, and 617 yds (I believe he was injured during the down year).  Beasley was salty because he didn't think he got a chance to contribute as much as he could to the offense or wasn't being used right.

16 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

That can be said about every player in the league.

 

Diggs has missed catchable balls and has failed to get separation at times.  Had stuff called back by bad penalties.  But for the most part he produces. And no before anyone says it. I'm not calling McKenzie, Diggs

 

But Tbh I'm not sure what you're trying to say. 

 

You were painting a picture of McKenzie as being underutilized by the Bills for no good reason:

"Any time he's been used he produces. For whatever reason we don't use him."

 

Yes, every receiver has bad plays, but the point is: when you're trying to work your way onto the field, the positive plays have to outnumber the negative plays by a significant margin.  Otherwise the reason the coaches don't play you ahead of other players isn't mysterious, it's because you haven't come through as reliably as you need to do to win playing time away from incumbents.

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Posted

 

31 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Any time he's been used he produces. For whatever reason we don't use him. Like Bates. 


Any time he’s been used and produced its been v Man coverage. I suspect what is completely glossed over is bease can read D, run options and settle in zone holes. McKenzie can shake a safety or nickel manned up.  I suspect the zone bearing ability has more value to the offense. 

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Any time he’s been used and produced its been v Man coverage. I suspect what is completely glossed over is bease can read D, run options and settle in zone holes. McKenzie can shake a safety or nickel manned up.  I suspect the zone bearing ability has more value to the offense. 

 

This.  Listen to the guys who cover these folks in practice.  Taron Johnson called Beasley a "cheat code" for improving his slot coverage in zone.  When asked about covering McKenzie he said "Isaiah's thing is speed, mostly".

 

We used to do these performance reviews where we would rate our reports skills for job-relevant tasks.  I haven't watched as much all-22 as I used to, but based on what I've seen I would rate McKenzie's route-running skills as "progressing" and Beasley's as "shows mastery"

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

That's just Wrong.  His three last years in Dallas, Beasley got 57%, 57%, and 66% of the snaps, and put up 837, 314, and 617 yds (I believe he was injured during the down year).  Beasley was salty because he didn't think he got a chance to contribute as much as he could to the offense or wasn't being used right.

 

You were painting a picture of McKenzie as being underutilized by the Bills for no good reason:

"Any time he's been used he produces. For whatever reason we don't use him."

 

Yes, every receiver has bad plays, but the point is: when you're trying to work your way onto the field, the positive plays have to outnumber the negative plays by a significant margin.  Otherwise the reason the coaches don't play you ahead of other players isn't mysterious, it's because you haven't always come through as you should.

His positive plays far outweigh the negatives. Especially on offense. 

 

4 total fumbles(all on ST) with the Bills and 23 total TDs in 4 seasons. He produces when used and it is a big mystery why he's not used more on offense. 

 

I'm not saying he's gonna put up 1500 yards and 14 tds if he starts but he's shown to be a weapon that can be moved around, create mismatches and produce when called upon. 

 

Its been clear that he has issues returning and has been solid on offense but the coaching staff starts him on returns and rarely used him on offense until later when they needed him to play for bease then using him sparingly like the 9ers use deebo after bease came back. Where he produced.

 

Edited by Not at the table Karlos
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Posted
6 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

 


Any time he’s been used and produced its been v Man coverage. I suspect what is completely glossed over is bease can read D, run options and settle in zone holes. McKenzie can shake a safety or nickel manned up.  I suspect the zone bearing ability has more value to the offense. 

Beasley really know football, defenses and routes and can run them, to close to perfection.  And he has incredibly secure hands (he did a f drops later this season but almost never fumbles) and has an uncanny knack/knowledge of where he has to get to get a first down.  Whereas McKenzie you let him loose,  never quit sure where he/the play is headed,  sometimes you have to shut your eyes in fear but has can athletically do things Beasley can't.

Posted
44 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Stevenson?  What has he shown you that leads you to believe he would be an upgrade?

 

Yeah, he ran a fast 40 time.  But in a short gig of 14 PR and 5 KR over 5 games, he had 2 fumbles and if I'm not mistaken, a couple more muffs.  He also appeared to have no field vision based on his tendency to run into the butts of his blockers, and he didn't appear to play "up to" his 40 time.

 

Now maybe he's just got a learning curve - I'm sure the Bills haven't given up on him at all.  But I'm equally sure they don't plan to count on him as either a KR/PR or as a slot receiver next season.

 

I think it's very telling that McKenzie won the KR job back for the playoffs.

 

 

That's part of it.   But there's sort of a "mystery wrapped in an enigma" about Isaiah McKenzie.  I'm going to muse back and forth here:

On the first hand, when there's a question about Beasley's availability due to injury, McDermott and Daboll always say that they have "full confidence in McKenzie to run all the routes Beasley runs".

 

On the other hand, when the rubber meets the road, Daboll's game day decision has been "Beasley with smashed ribs over McKenzie" or "Beasley with broken fibula over McKenzie".

 

On the first hand, when McKenzie has gotten his chances as in the Miami game 2020 and the 2nd NE game 2021, he has killed it, and his teammates say "no one here is surprised, we see what he does every day" and "on another team, he'd be starting" and "that boy a Problem" and "all he has done is work and put his head down

 

On the other hand, we have a first-hand report here of McKenzie body-catching balls during warmup before a game, and (I never have gotten an answer as to source) that McKenzie was said to have bad practice habits and be muffing or fumbling in practice.   One can work hard, but not right.  One has to do both.

 

What's clear is that the coaches (not just McDermott, but also Daboll) haven't seem to trust him completely, and that may be based on something we don't see (practice and meeting room habits).  On the other hand, sometimes (presumably based on practice and meeting room) coaches appear to develop weird fixations on players who can't cut it on Sunday (*cough* Nathan Peterman *cough* Vlad Ducasse).

 

McKenzie has 100%, beyond doubt improved since arriving in Buffalo.  When he got here, he could NOT run routes.  He could not release against sticky coverage.  He could not make sharp, ankle breaking cuts.  Now he can run routes, and he can release and cut against most DBs.  Add that to his speed, and players have taken note: "(Isaiah) is a real matchup problem.  I won't lie to you, he is." 

He can't read the defense and find soft spot in the zone or run option routes the way Beasley can; his great game against NE came when they were covering him outside, man2man, and he just ran away from them (then he got some good catches in a later game where they expected that, and he cut and ran a different route, so that isn't all he can do). 

 

I kind of have the feeling that McKenzie is a handful to coach and at times, his own worst enemy.  He works out like a beast in off season, but largely on his own and not at the high-end "Receiver Factory" /"House of Athlete" specialized places Diggs uses, designed to help him release and cut better and run better routes.  McK said in an interview "I'm just a little guy, I have to hold onto the ball however I can" which could translate to "I'm not being coachable about ball security".

 

So I don't know.  I don't think McKenzie has necessarily peaked in the NFL.  But I don't know if he's going to invest in himself the right way and perceive what his gaps are and keep growing.  Beane has commented on the need for speed but also to be football players, to have instincts and be able to play; McKenzie has shown he's not just fast, he can ball, No Doubt.  He can block, he can tackle, he can take a hit.

 

I think there's a double-edged sword for guys who have McKenzie's background, which is having nobody in his corner but himself; he hasn't had family supporting him and finding him extra coaching or elite WR camps or tutors or SAT prep, his grandma was just trying to see that they ate and he didn't get shot.   Guys like that have to be hard-headed and lean into their own sense of self-belief and "against all odds" mentality.  But that also makes it hard to hear coaches who say "you need to do this not that" because you've heard it before and you've flown past it fueled by your own hard work so who knows if they have your interests at heart?

 

My personal belief is that the Bills should try to re-up McKenzie and offer him a multi-year deal with some signing bonus and with performance incentives, to give him some security to invest in his own skills with high-level coaching.  Go do that hand-eye training stuff that Knox did.  Spend the whole off season at the Receiver Factory.  On the other hand, a lot depends upon how Dorsey and now Brady and Kromer (if he's taking over the run game) see him.  It might be to McKenzie's benefit to go somewhere else, if he wants a chance to start in the slot and they just don't see him as a potential starter.

 

The NFL right now is a "have and have not" situation.  There are about 32 WR on deals with AAV >$10k.  There are a double handful (~10) guys who are either well-paid specialists like Beasley, or guys on one-year 'prove its' like Sanders. Then there are high-round rookies getting well paid towards the end of their deals. 

 

There may not be a lot of cap space for guys like McKenzie who have shown they can play when they've gotten a chance, but who are older and haven't established themselves as able to start throughout a season.

 

 

Interesting musings about McKenzie. I hope they sign him too. The offense runs better with him in there getting some touches IMO. It does seem that McD has a burr up his butt regarding McKenzie so I’m not holding my breath.

On Stevenson, he can run fast in a straight line. He doesn’t show the ability to evade people. His college tape looks like that too. I know he had a good return in preseason and that raised expectations. I don’t think he makes the roster this year. 

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Posted
10 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

His positive plays far outweigh the negatives. Especially on offense. 

 

4 total fumbles(all on ST) with the Bills and 23 total TDs in 4 seasons. He produces when used and it is a big mystery why he's not used more on offense. 

 

I'm not saying he's gonna put up 1500 yards and 14 tds if he starts but he's shown to be a weapon that can be moved around, create mismatches and produce when called upon. 

 

 

We may just have to agree to disagree.

 

The Bills see a ton of zone coverage.  Diggs says "Cole Beasley is open on every play" and if you watch all-22, that's true unless they bracket him.  McKenzie can beat the jock off of most guys against man and he can now run most of the route tree, but he doesn't break ankles or find the seams in the zone or run option routes where he reads the defense as Beasley does.  And he can't track the ball or release from "sticky" coverage well enough to be a deep threat.

 

The question isn't "can he put up 1500 yds and 14 TDs" the question is "can he put up >500 yds and 36 1st downs against zone coverage if he's starting in the slot?" (and note that would be a down year for Beasley who has put up >=700 yds and averaged 40 1D/season here)

 

 

Posted
35 minutes ago, Dr.Mantis_Toboggan said:

Get Cordarell Patterson instead, dude upped his game in a major way. He is basically Deboo Samuel-light, and just imagine Josh with a versatile weapon like that at his disposal.

 

Diggs, Davis, Patterson, another value FA like Crowder, then draft pick, Hodgins, Stevenson, battle it out for remaining roster spots.

 

 

Stevenson showed zero ball security so he's probably out.  And if Hodgins had any real game we'd have seen it by now.  I see them both released.  My gut says give Isaiah one final chance but I also wouldn't be devastated if he was replaced by a Patterson or Berrios. I could also see us drafting 2 wrs in april.

Posted
1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

We may just have to agree to disagree.

 

The Bills see a ton of zone coverage.  Diggs says "Cole Beasley is open on every play" and if you watch all-22, that's true unless they bracket him.  McKenzie can beat the jock of most guys against man and he can now run most of the route tree, but he doesn't break ankles or find the seams in the zone or run option routes where he reads the defense as Beasley does.

What does Cole Beasely have to do with McKenzie producing when on the field? Cole Beasely being good doesn't mean that McKenzie has to be bad. That's not how this works. McKenzie can be used in different ways and there's room for both on the roster if the cap allows. 

Posted
15 minutes ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

What does Cole Beasely have to do with McKenzie producing when on the field? Cole Beasely being good doesn't mean that McKenzie has to be bad. That's not how this works. McKenzie can be used in different ways and there's room for both on the roster if the cap allows. 

 

The point is, McKenzie wants a chance to start in the slot (listen to his podcast with Ty Dunne, he made that clear) and be paid more than vet minimum.   His best route to regular offensive playing time is the slot, so if Beasley is on the field in the slot, McKenzie's on the bench.

 

"Room for both on the roster if the Cap allows": Beasley is due $7.2M and is 33 years old.  If we keep him, we have to scrimp somewhere else, so we probably need to go low budget at #4 WR on, unless that #4 guy is our PR/KR too.  I think it's fair to say McKenzie failed his PR audition, and we'll be looking elsewhere.

 

Whether or not we keep Beasley on the roster, we need to find room to develop his replacement.  So if they don't think McKenzie is that guy, we probably need to move on and draft/develop another young player. 

 

Please note that I like McKenzie and feel he fills a valuable role on the team, I'm just being pragmatic.  If we move on from Beasley, there might be room for him, but if he wants a chance to play from the slot and Beasley is back, chances are he's going to go somewhere else.

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The point is, McKenzie wants a chance to start in the slot (listen to his podcast with Ty Dunne, he made that clear) and be paid more than vet minimum.   His best route to regular offensive playing time is the slot, so if Beasley is on the field in the slot, McKenzie's on the bench.

 

"Room for both on the roster if the Cap allows": Beasley is due $7.2M and is 33 years old.  If we keep him, we have to scrimp somewhere else, so we probably need to go low budget at #4 WR on, unless that #4 guy is our PR/KR too.  I think it's fair to say McKenzie failed his PR audition, and we'll be looking elsewhere.

 

Whether or not we keep Beasley on the roster, we need to find room to develop his replacement.  So if they don't think McKenzie is that guy, we probably need to move on and draft/develop another young player. 

 

Please note that I like McKenzie and feel he fills a valuable role on the team, I'm just being pragmatic.  If we move on from Beasley, there might be room for him, but if he wants a chance to play from the slot and Beasley is back, chances are he's going to go somewhere else.


I thought Stevenson would be the replacement for Beasley at some point. People are shitting on him about the return game but we know nothing about him as a WR at this point. Which is no surprise after injury and having McKenzie with more experience in that roll at this point. McD loves experience. 
 

I like McKenzie and think we’d be fine if we let Beasley go to free cap space. If anybody doesn’t think he can do it go back and watch the Pats game 2021 and Dolphins game 2022. Kid makes plays. He’s be learning under Beas for 3 years now, he’s ready. 

Edited by BananaB
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Posted
4 minutes ago, BananaB said:


I thought Stevenson would be the replacement for Beasley at some point. People are shitting on him about the return game but we know nothing about him as a WR at this point. Which is no surprise after injury and having McKenzie with more experience in that roll at this point. McD loves experience. 
 

I like McKenzie and think we’d be fine if we let Beasley go to free cap space. If anybody doesn’t think he can do it go back and watch the Pats game 2021 and Dolphins game 2022. Kid makes plays. He’s be learning under Beas for 3 years now, he’s ready. 

Even with the return game, he needs to be developed still and shouldn’t be disregarded because in the game reps that he got, he was inconsistent. Rookie picked in the late round usually don’t arrive perfectly seasoned. I hope they give him that chance.  he will need to earn it in TC and they should also bring in competition. 

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Posted
23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

The point is, McKenzie wants a chance to start in the slot (listen to his podcast with Ty Dunne, he made that clear) and be paid more than vet minimum.   His best route to regular offensive playing time is the slot, so if Beasley is on the field in the slot, McKenzie's on the bench.

 

"Room for both on the roster if the Cap allows": Beasley is due $7.2M and is 33 years old.  If we keep him, we have to scrimp somewhere else, so we probably need to go low budget at #4 WR on, unless that #4 guy is our PR/KR too.  I think it's fair to say McKenzie failed his PR audition, and we'll be looking elsewhere.

 

Whether or not we keep Beasley on the roster, we need to find room to develop his replacement.  So if they don't think McKenzie is that guy, we probably need to move on and draft/develop another young player. 

 

Please note that I like McKenzie and feel he fills a valuable role on the team, I'm just being pragmatic.  If we move on from Beasley, there might be room for him, but if he wants a chance to play from the slot and Beasley is back, chances are he's going to go somewhere else.

Jesus Christ you twisted "he's produced when used" into something completely different. 

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