most underrated move by Beane during his time here

[freddyjj]

34 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

Excellent thread, dave mcbride! We did a lot of roster paring in anticipation of high picks in ‘18. So much so, this huge move sort of falls through the cracks in that whirlwind start of McBeane. We had enough good players I felt to compete, but the $$ was way out of whack! 
 

list of initial McBeane paring: (iirc)

Glenn

Darius

Darby

Gilmore

Carpenter

Goodwin

 

 

Add Lizard Man aka Flat Earther, #14 Sammy Watkins. 

[Dan Darragh]

I'm hazy on the details but I seem to remember trading a player who we were going to cut to New England for a draft pick, then NE cut him before the season started.  Not a huge win but turning crap into something, and on Belichik's tab.

[buffblue]

10 hours ago, Rigotz said:

I’ll go with a topical one.

 

How about NOT giving Shaq Lawson or Jordan Phillips huge deals after they had good seasons for the Bills?

 

Shaq got a huge contract, then did nothing. Same with Phillips. Beane saw that coming when a lot of posters on this site were calling for his head for not re-signing those two.

Very good points, but the disappointing flip side was replacing them with guys like Quinton Jefferson and Vernon Butler.

 

Let's hope with the emergence of Oliver and Phillips plus our young edge rushers that the Dline is solidified.

[Sammyboy]

Gutting the scouting department 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Dan Darragh said:

I'm hazy on the details but I seem to remember trading a player who we were going to cut to New England for a draft pick, then NE cut him before the season started.  Not a huge win but turning crap into something, and on Belichik's tab.

 

Yep. Russell Bodine. 

1 hour ago, buffblue said:

Very good points, but the disappointing flip side was replacing them with guys like Quinton Jefferson and Vernon Butler.

 

Let's hope with the emergence of Oliver and Phillips plus our young edge rushers that the Dline is solidified.

 

Jefferson was really unfortunate. They signed him to be their versatile chess piece that played outside on run downs and then reduced down inside on pass downs. Then Star opted out and he kind of got shoehorned into a full time DT role. In exactly that kind of rotational, versatile, role in a very similar scheme in Vegas this year he has had a good season. 

[ganesh]

8 hours ago, Gugny said:

Will be hard to top getting a 3rd round pick for garbage QB.  One of the happiest days of my life as a Bills fan.  I was actually taking a crap when I found out.  I said to myself, "Look at that!  The Bills and I lost a piece of sh!t at the same exact time!"

He could be our backup QB next season !!!!

[Hebert19]

He's great at getting something for nothing. People we are going to cut...he gets something for them. 

 

Also he works cap really well.  Restructures etc to get max put of cap. 

[T master]

Bringing in Poyer & Hyde was a pretty good get for the team I can't remember if that was totally a Beane move but not a bad one for sure !

 

They are probably the most under rated tandem in the NFL when Belichek praises you and the work you do you know your doing something right ...

[Rigotz]

Considering how well the Corners have been playing in Tre's absence...

How about signing Levi Wallace for $1.75M(!), drafting Dane Jackson in the 7th round of last year's draft, and finding Taron Johnson in the 4th round of 2018 draft?

[Albany,n.y.]

18 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

So you are saying trading the #21 and #22 overall picks wouldn't get you up to #12?

 

Really?

 

Well obviously you're just wrong.........that would have obviously been great value for the team with #12 overall...........so I assume you are confused.

 

Beane also lamented a little bit that Tampa got more than he should have had to pay to move up to #7.......but the way that the Bills picks aligned......Tampa was able to get extra value.    

 

And btw Darius Leonard and Fred Warner are the All Pro ILB's that were selected after Edmunds so I don't know what all the other name dropping is about.

 

 

If they had traded both 1sts to move up to 12, it wouldn't have fit their plan.  Remember, the original trade was their 2 1sts (12 & 22) and a 2nd to move up to 5 (Denver).  They were afraid that the Arizona & Tampa GMs were close friends & that Arizona would beat the Bills out for #7, so there was no way 21 & 22 for 12 was going to happen because they still wanted to trade up & they wanted to keep 22 and still get to 12 in case 22 was needed to trade up with. 

 

The Bills overpaid Tampa on the points board because they knew Arizona wanted Josh Allen & viewed them as direct competition in any trade up scenario.  

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said:

If they had traded both 1sts to move up to 12, it wouldn't have fit their plan.  Remember, the original trade was their 2 1sts (12 & 22) and a 2nd to move up to 5 (Denver).  They were afraid that the Arizona & Tampa GMs were close friends & that Arizona would beat the Bills out for #7, so there was no way 21 & 22 for 12 was going to happen because they still wanted to trade up & they wanted to keep 22 and still get to 12 in case 22 was needed to trade up with. 

 

The Bills overpaid Tampa on the points board because they knew Arizona wanted Josh Allen & viewed them as direct competition in any trade up scenario.  

 

 

There was no "original trade"..........they traded with Cinci to move up weeks before the draft..........nothing was close to set in stone that early.

 

What part of "their was plenty of draft capital to move up to #7 overall without the Cordy Glenn trade"  do you NOT get?

 

Like I said..........they accumulated all of the 2018 picks in 2017 thinking that they might need all that capital to move up for their QB of choice.........and it would have cost ALL of that and perhaps multiple early picks in subsequent years......and been worth it..........had Allen not fallen out of the top 3.

 

 

 

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

There was no "original trade"..........they traded with Cinci to move up weeks before the draft..........nothing was close to set in stone that early.

 

What part of "their was plenty of draft capital to move up to #7 overall without the Cordy Glenn trade"  do you NOT get?

 

Like I said..........they accumulated all of the 2018 picks in 2017 thinking that they might need all that capital to move up for their QB of choice.........and it would have cost ALL of that and perhaps multiple early picks in subsequent years......and been worth it..........had Allen not fallen out of the top 3.

 

He was talking about the draft day deal the Bills had in place with Denver to move to 5 if Chubb was already gone.  It was 12, 22 and a 2nd (probably 53) for 5 and a 3rd (probably 71).  

 

But again, while they might had the draft capital to get to 7 without the Cordy Glenn trade, there's no guarantee the Bucs, or any other team in the top-10 for that matter, would have traded down that far.  Trading Glenn to get to 12 (making Glenn essentially worth a mid-2nd rounder), especially that far in advance to give them more options to plan for, was a coup and made trading down more palatable for any team within the top-5, and Beane knew that.

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

He was talking about the draft day deal the Bills had in place with Denver to move to 5 if Chubb was already gone.  It was 12, 22 and a 2nd (probably 53) for 5 and a 3rd (probably 71).  

 

But again, while they might had the draft capital to get to 7 without the Cordy Glenn trade, there's no guarantee the Bucs, or any other team in the top-10 for that matter, would have traded down that far.  Trading Glenn to get to 12 (making Glenn essentially worth a mid-2nd rounder), especially that far in advance to give them more options to plan for, was a coup and made trading down more palatable for any team within the top-5, and Beane knew that.

 

 

No doubt it was a good deal.

 

It was being oversold as the only way to skin that cat though............and neglecting that a lot of luck was involved in Allen slipping to #7.

 

To me...........I just appreciate a Bills GM/HC/Ownership combo actually agreeing that they should trade-up-from or use that original first round pick to take the QB they deemed the best for the first time in 58 years.

 

Adding hyperbole to the origin story is unnecessary.

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[loyal2dagame]

Drafting Bass when we still had Hauschka is my choice. 

[78thealltimegreat]

On 1/11/2022 at 5:58 PM, dave mcbride said:

I gotta go with flipping Cordy Glenn and the #22 pick for Cincy's #12 pick before the 2018 draft. That was highway robbery and the single most important reason they were able to get Allen.

Oh anytime you eventually use that as a piece to get a true cornerstone QB that says it all…but I am going to also go with using Jedi mind tricks on John Elway so he took Nick Chubb instead of Allen  

[Doc]

26 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

No doubt it was a good deal.

 

It was being oversold as the only way to skin that cat though............and neglecting that a lot of luck wasn't involved in Allen slipping to #7.

 

To me...........I just appreciate a Bills GM/HC/Ownership combo actually agreeing that they should trade-up-from or use that original first round pick to take the QB they deemed the best for the first time in 58 years.

 

Adding hyperbole to the origin story is unnecessary.

 

Fair enough.  But I think you're overselling how easy it would have been to trade up from 21 to 12 even, much less 7.  That draft had far fewer than 21 blue chippers.  Beane making the smart decision to get within striking distance of where he thought Josh might go weeks in advance made it less lucky.  And as they say, luck is when preparation meets opportunity.

 

 

[Albany,n.y.]

13 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

There was no "original trade"..........they traded with Cinci to move up weeks before the draft..........nothing was close to set in stone that early.

 

What part of "their was plenty of draft capital to move up to #7 overall without the Cordy Glenn trade"  do you NOT get?

 

Like I said..........they accumulated all of the 2018 picks in 2017 thinking that they might need all that capital to move up for their QB of choice.........and it would have cost ALL of that and perhaps multiple early picks in subsequent years......and been worth it..........had Allen not fallen out of the top 3.

 

 

 

The original trade was with Denver to move up to 5.  12, 22, & their 1st 2nd rounder. It was worked out before the day of the draft.  It was contingent on Chubb not being there at 5 for Denver.  The good news was that when that fell through and Denver picked Chubb the Bills then still had draft capital at a lower cost to move to 7.  They didn't want to have to use their 2019 1st because they figured they'd be taking a step back & didn't want to give up a 2019 top 10 pick.  

 

One of the key reasons they were able to set their sights on #5 or lower was they figured one of their top 3 QBs would be there at 5.  The board released to WGR before the draft had the trade to Denver & its terms on there with Josh #1, Darnold 2nd & Mayfield 3rd. The Bills were willing to trade to 5  for any of the 3 and because it was almost certain that one of those 3 would be there since the Giants were in win now mode with Manning (pretty bizare thinking with the #2 pick & an aging QB, but that's why Gettleman had to "retire" on Monday) and Cleveland wasn't drating 2 QBs, so they would be able to get a QB at 5,  While they definitely liked Josh the best, they were willing to settle for Mayfield or Darnold.  Fortunately the didn't have to.  Really once Mayfield was picked at one, the Bills had a clear path to Josh since it was pretty well known that if Mayfield went #1, Darnold was going to the Jets.  The Giants could have squeezed the Jets to trade up a spot but didn't.   

Edited January 13, 2022 by Albany,n.y.

[BADOLBILZ]

10 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Fair enough.  But I think you're overselling how easy it would have been to trade up from 21 to 12 even, much less 7.  That draft had far fewer than 21 blue chippers.  Beane making the smart decision to get within striking distance of where he thought Josh might go weeks in advance made it less lucky.  And as they say, luck is when preparation meets opportunity.

 

 

 

 

We will have to agree to disagree.........they had the 22nd pick in their pocket..........the 21, 22 and the picks dealt to Tampa gets them to #7 overall most years and they still had more value to deal from.

 

My point about the rest of the draft has as much or more validity as the concept that they didn't have enough ammo to move up......even if just in the context of using 2018 picks only.

 

They used their savings on a lesser MLB(so far) than Darius Leonard or Fred Warner.......what are the odds of 2 All Pro MLB's being picked after the second one came off the board in a draft(it's likely never happened before and Roquan Smith is better than Edmunds too)..........and the chaos caused by the atrocious state of the Glenn-less 2018 OL likely impacted the evaluation of Teller........their 5th round pick in that 2018 draft.

 

So while the Allen pick was a HR or HR's.......aided by several extremely dumb, shortsighted decisions in the 6 picks in front of them.........how they utilized the savings and the subsequent OL performance in 2018 were factors in lowering the potential value of that draft.

 

Imagine netting an MVP candidate and 2 other All Pro players(say, Warner, who the Bills were high on, and Teller) out of one draft..........they were thisclose to that.

 

I am a big fan of Beane's 1st round work in general...........since 1990 there has never been a situation where I was pleased with any 2 consecutive 1st round picks by any Bills GM at the time...........and I've really liked all of his........excellent work, IMO.  

 

His second round work has been consistent with every other Bills GM..........the only time they seem to nail round 2 is when they don't have a pick in round 1.........which I think is because they get carried away drafting for need when it's much too early to start doing that.

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, Albany,n.y. said:

The original trade was with Denver to move up to 5.  12, 22, & their 1st 2nd rounder. It was worked out before the day of the draft.  It was contingent on Chubb not being there at 5 for Denver.  The good news was that when that fell through and Denver picked Chubb the Bills then still had draft capital at a lower cost to move to 7.  They didn't want to have to use their 2019 1st because they figured they'd be taking a step back & didn't want to give up a 2019 top 10 pick.  

 

One of the key reasons they were able to set their sights on #5 or lower was they figured one of their top 3 QBs would be there at 5.  The board released to WGR before the draft had the trade to Denver & its terms on there with Josh #1, Darnold 2nd & Mayfield 3rd. The Bills were willing to trade to 5  for any of the 3 and because it was almost certain that one of those 3 would be there since the Giants were in win now mode with Manning (pretty bizare thinking with the #2 pick & an aging QB, but that's why Gettleman had to "retire" on Monday) and Cleveland wasn't drating 2 QBs, so they would be able to get a QB at 5,  While they definitely liked Josh the best, they were willing to settle for Mayfield or Darnold.  Fortunately the didn't have to.  Really once Mayfield was picked at one, the Bills had a clear path to Josh since it was pretty well known that if Mayfield went #1, Darnold was going to the Jets.  The Giants could have squeezed the Jets to trade up a spot but didn't.   

Thanks for the excellent summary - the clearest I've seen. So as always there was a combination of a sound strategy/scouting and just a little bit of luck (or, if you prefer, some really poor decision making by some teams drafting ahead of us).

[Doc]

34 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

We will have to agree to disagree.........they had the 22nd pick in their pocket..........the 21, 22 and the picks dealt to Tampa gets them to #7 overall most years and they still had more value to deal from.

 

My point about the rest of the draft has as much or more validity as the concept that they didn't have enough ammo to move up......even if just in the context of using 2018 picks only.

 

They used their savings on a lesser MLB(so far) than Darius Leonard or Fred Warner.......what are the odds of 2 All Pro MLB's being picked after the second one came off the board in a draft(it's likely never happened before and Roquan Smith is better than Edmunds too)..........and the chaos caused by the atrocious state of the Glenn-less 2018 OL likely impacted the evaluation of Teller........their 5th round pick in that 2018 draft.

 

So while the Allen pick was a HR or HR's.......aided by several extremely dumb, shortsighted decisions in the 6 picks in front of them.........how they utilized the savings and the subsequent OL performance in 2018 were factors in lowering the potential value of that draft.

 

Imagine netting an MVP candidate and 2 other All Pro players(say, Warner, who the Bills were high on, and Teller) out of one draft..........they were thisclose to that.

 

I am a big fan of Beane's 1st round work in general...........since 1990 there has never been a situation where I was pleased with any 2 consecutive 1st round picks by any Bills GM at the time...........and I've really liked all of his........excellent work, IMO.  

 

His second round work has been consistent with every other Bills GM..........the only time they seem to nail round 2 is when they don't have a pick in round 1.........which I think is because they get carried away drafting for need when it's much too early to start doing that.

 

Yes, we'll have to agree to disagree about easily being able to trade up from 21 to 7.  And frankly, it's belaboring a moot point.  Even though you could, why would you trade 2-1sts when you could trade 1-1st, a washed-up asset in Glenn and 2-2nds to get there?  Just because they might have mishandled later picks?

 

How they handled trading up to 7 is so beyond reproach it's not even worth debating.  Any GM staring at that trade would do that in a heartbeat and twice on Sundays and not wait and see if 21 and 22 were enough to get to 7 at the 11th hour on draft day.

 

But it seems you're of the mind that Glenn was anything but done by the time he was traded, probably because you're trying to tie him in with your point about Teller.  The fact is that he lost his starting LT job with the Bills mid-2017 and was terrible for the Bengals in 2018 and out of the league the year after.  At best he would have started at LG for the Bills if they hadn't been able to trick Cincy into trading for him, and put Teller on the bench.  Meanwhile Teller was no great shakes his first year in Cleveland either.  You win some, you lose some.  For all his talent, he will be sitting on his couch this weekend.

 

As for Edmunds, again he was a college OLB who they envisioned being a Brian Urlacher (i.e. size) type MLB.  If they wanted an undersized but traditional MLB, they would/could have gone with Warner (I'm not sure why you keep mentioning Leonard, since he is an OLB, while Smith was taken 8th overall and was never in play).  But they seem to like Edmunds at MLB, picked-up his 5th year option even, and the defense is #1 overall.  Meanwhile the Colts and Bears are sitting home for the playoffs, as are the Browns, because they lack the most important position, which made the 2018 draft a HR for the Bills for just picking Josh alone.

 

And finally, as for luck, the draft fell the way most envisioned, and logically.  The Browns and Jets needed QBs, the Giants felt they could get another year out of Eli so they took who many felt was the safest and arguably best player in the draft in Barkley, the Browns had a 2nd pick and took a CB, and the Colts took a generational OG to protect Luck.  About the only questionable/lucky for the Bills pick was the Broncos taking Chubb over Josh, but Josh had a lot of question marks.