Wonderlic Test Eliminated from Pre-Draft Process

[The Frankish Reich]

2 hours ago, bigK14094 said:

Intellectual capability can be judged by interview to some degree.  A college transcript might be another way.  I know I would ask for such information...and that is legit by any employment laws I am aware of.  I went through this kind of adjustment in tactics as laws changed in my 40 years in the corporate world where I  made hiring decisions by the hundreds.  Truly capable interviewers will find out a lot,  but decisions will still be hard and somewhat a gamble.  The loss of this specific test is not a significant  loss IMHO.  Some  coaches preach the business like approach to the pro game, that should absolutely be part of the administrative side as well.  And, I agree the leak issue was a big one for the NFL to deal with.

Good comment. This agrees with my experience. When I first got into a position where I was making hiring decisions, a mentor shared his old Texas wisdom with me: "You can't teach smart." Some of the jobs were fairly technical. We could hire someone with a degree that matched up perfectly with a job description only to find out that that kid couldn't write a grammatical sentence if his life depended on it. We would also find an astonishing level of innumeracy even among the business majors. So he hired for "smart" - general intelligence, which he found correlated best with the ability to learn a new field and to succeed in it.

Ever since the Supreme Court decided (in the Griggs case) that intelligence tests must relate to the skills required for the job (Griggs involved an intelligence test given to firefighting candidates) they've been on shaky ground. If an applicant can show that one group of people (gender, race, ethnicity) tends to score lower and that the test doesn't strongly relate to the skills required for the job, the employer can't justify using an intelligence test.

And that brings us to Wonderlic. I don't know what the NFL knows, but they're a very lawyered-up league and I imagine they understand there's some risk here. Maybe it just doesn't correlate well with performance as a pro QB.

But the problem is that we then start using proxies for the intelligence test. This is why Wall Street hires Ivy League grads - they can't give them an IQ test, so they let the Harvard admissions process (you got in, you must be really smart!) substitute for it. Or they subject you to lengthy interviews to try to gauge general intelligence rather than job-specific knowledge. Maybe they ask you those bizzarro questions Google famously acts, all to get at the same type of information that a half hour written test could reveal. It's inefficient. Perhaps more fair? Perhaps, but inefficient nonetheless.

I probably like the Wonderlic just because those leaked scores are fun to talk about. But let's not kid ourselves - it is likely being eliminated for a combination of factors, and one big factor is the legal landscape. 

[RoyBatty is alive]

1 minute ago, purple haze said:

I answered your question.  The activities are related to physical acumen.  Which are directly related to football.
 

the Wonderlic, in your opinion, does those things.  But does it really?   Why not a test about football related topics?  Wouldn’t the powers that be learn the same things about the players ?   Or has player performance over however many years in college/high school not given indications of the factors you list already?  So what’s the point of the Wonderlic If they can already suss out those factors through football acumen?

Oh so forget mental acumen, it is only physical acumen is it?  Mental acumen is related to football?  The wonderlic measures mental acumen which is critical for the NFL esp with QBs.  Brady example #1.  Football related topics are far too subjective and prone to interpretation

 

There is no such thing as a "perfect" or perfectly "fair" standardized test, yes its a bummer but that is the real world.

[Augie]

3 hours ago, maddenboy said:

 I dont like how Florio states his opinion here as if it were fact.  Stating that the wonderlic is irrelevant.  That's a stupid statement in itself.

 

There's 32 teams and lots of personnel on each team.  How can he possibly know how it is used.  

 

I disagree that it is irrelevant.  But if teams use it wrongly, that's better for the teams that use it correctly.  I think what he NFL is after here, is (1) stopping the scores from leaking and (2) possible liability later, for leaked scores.  Especially if there are statements regarding confidentiality that the nfl makes to the test takers.

 

I’m pretty sure my sister-in-law invented that move. I have started a movement to forever have that called a “Marie Louise-ism”. I’m hoping it catches on. 😋

 

While I’m not offended by it in any way, I’m sure there are better ways to determine whether a guy can be a successful NFL football player. If a guy fails to prepare for it, that does say something since it shouldn’t have come as a surprise to anyone. What does bother me is the way the scores seem to find their way into the public. There is no need for that. 

[HOUSE]

If Sally has a horse and You have a horse

 

How many total horses do you and sally have ?

 

Er ah.....3

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

20 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Incorrect.

 

The Wonderlic is not an about random facts, it is not a history test.  It is about cognitive ability.  The ability to figure things out, the ability TO LEARN, the ability to be COACHED.

 

So you never answered the question, why do they combine at all, there is no running the 40 in shorts in the NFL.

 

Well, I disagree with you both.  

 

I just went and took one of the practice tests online to be sure I wasn’t misremembering - assuming the tests online are similar to the actual test….

It’s not about random facts, but there are a bunch of questions where you have to just know some stuff - notably vocabulary.

It also requires facility in certain types of math problems - some algebra, some geometry

Then it requires some careful observational abilities.

 

Because of the short timeline, it requires a certain amount of test taking strategy - knowing which problems will take you too long and moving on - the online versions don’t allow you to go back and re-take the ones you skip or to check your work, don’t know if the real test does or not.

 

So No, I would have to say it’s not a test of cognitive ability or the ability to figure things out or to learn.  It’s a test of ability to answer certain types of questions rapidly.

 

I think it’s fair to say that just about anyone could improve their score with some coaching and preparation, so the point that being willing to put in that work may have some bearing on how much a draft candidate “wants it” could be valid, as well as the point that anyone who does prep should probably be able to score above a certain bar.

 

But let’s not imbue it with properties it doesn’t have - it’s not a test of “ability to learn” or “ability to be coached” and only to a very minor extent “ability to figure things out”.

[The Frankish Reich]

9 minutes ago, Augie said:

What does bother me is the way the scores seem to find their way into the public. There is no need for that. 

Why does it bother you?

40 yard time, cone drill time, height, weight, hand size, all published at the Combine.

We have some kind of weird hangup in America now about just one thing: measurement of intellect.

My kid's school stopped publishing the Honor Roll. Now you have to log-in to get that top secret info. Why do they allow the basketball box scores to be published? Or the cross country times? You can win all kinds of awards and trophies for physical achievements, but intellectual achievements must be all hush-hush.

[RoyBatty is alive]

Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well, I disagree with you both.  

 

I just went and took one of the practice tests online to be sure I wasn’t misremembering - assuming the tests online are similar to the actual test….

It’s not about random facts, but there are a bunch of questions where you have to just know some stuff - notably vocabulary.

It also requires facility in certain types of math problems - some algebra, some geometry

Then it requires some careful observational abilities.

 

Because of the short timeline, it requires a certain amount of test taking strategy - knowing which problems will take you too long and moving on - the online versions don’t allow you to go back and re-take the ones you skip or to check your work, don’t know if the real test does or not.

 

So No, I would have to say it’s not a test of cognitive ability or the ability to figure things out or to learn.  It’s a test of ability to answer certain types of questions rapidly.

 

I think it’s fair to say that just about anyone could improve their score with some coaching and preparation, so the point that being willing to put in that work may have some bearing on how much a draft candidate “wants it” could be valid, as well as the point that anyone who does prep should probably be able to score above a certain bar.

 

But let’s not imbue it with properties it doesn’t have - it’s not a test of “ability to learn” or “ability to be coached” and only to a very minor extent “ability to figure things out”.

Well we will disagree, the actual name for the test it the The Wonderlic Contemporary Cognitive Ability Test .  Is it perfect, not even close, there is no such thing as a perfect standardized test.  And I disagree, I think it is easier to coach and/or learn if you have more cognitive ability, easier to coach f you are more smart than another.

[Buffalo716]

55 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Could say the same about Josh - “will be interesting to see how he plays when he’s no longer an incredible athlete with elite escapability/ability to run”

John Harbaugh says of Lamar Jackson “he’s very intelligent”.  Now what’s the coach gonna say “he’s dumber than a bunch of rocks”? No, but at the same time, he doesn’t have to put that out there.

 

As far as the baseline - it’s not Wonderlic, but there’s an interesting anecdote about our own Isaiah McKenzie in Ty Dunne’s article

https://www.golongtd.com/p/the-buffalo-bills-secret-weapon-isaiah

When coaches discussed college with I-Mac, he said “I ain’t never got one good grade in my life”.  He went in to take the SAT cold, no prep, and scored a 700 which is rock bottom.  Then someone set him up with test prep courses where he learned some strategy (leave questions he didn’t know blank, answer questions he did know first), and his second score was a 1300.  (Then he got flagged because of the dramatic improvement in score and grades).

(IMHO from taking the practice Wonderlics on line, they are very pre-revision SAT like)

 

My points are:

1) sure, you can make a judgement about how much a kid wants something by whether they’re willing to put in the effort to improve at one of the hoops they have to jump through pre-draft. That’s fair.

2) when a score can be improved that dramatically by some test coaching and test prep, IMHO it’s pretty clear that it’s not measuring intrinsic intelligence at all, but rather a specific set of problem-solving and test-taking skills along with some basic education

3) I absolutely believe that a QB needs to have high intelligence and won’t succeed very well if he doesn’t, I’m just not persuaded the Wonderlic measures this.

 

IMHO, setting an arbitrary “baseline to hit” is sort of the same deal as setting a completion % baseline to hit and proclaiming (as was done for our Josh) that anyone who didn’t hit it had no chance to succeed as a QB in the NFL.  The problem with that logic is that it presumes all the candidates are coming from a certain comparable baseline - big college programs with a lot of talent around them, perhaps QB-friendly systems with high-completion-percentage throws.  So when you have a candidate from outside that comparable baseline (like Josh, playing in a pro-style offense with very little talent around him especially his Sr year) then all bets are off.  Then you get into intangibles like heart and effort and determination.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

IMHO, absolutely not “equal across the board”, and I think the answer to the second question is self-evident: if front offices and coaches truly believed the Wonderlic had bearing on player ability, they would fight tooth and nail to keep it.  I think FOs have a lot of data on how relevant the Wonderlic is for football ability, and that’s why it’s getting deep-6’d.

Like I said I don't think it's an intelligence exam per se

 

But you have hundreds of pages in a play with the memorize and a lot of little details

 

If you score a 5 on the wonderlic maybe you can't retain all of that.. 

 

And I love you hap, Josh Allen still throws a football a thousand times better than Lamar... So there's a lot of questions to me what would happen if Lamar can't run anymore

 

If Josh  can't run he wouldn't be as dynamic.. but he would still be slinging the rock all over the field

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Well we will disagree, the actual name for the test it the The Wonderlic Contemporary Cognitive Ability Test .  Is it perfect, not even close, there is no such thing as a perfect standardized test.  And I disagree, I think it is easier to coach and/or learn if you have more cognitive ability, easier to coach f you are more smart than another.

 

I don’t care what the name is.  I’ve taken tests of cognitive ability.  I’ve taken standardized tests by the pound - SAT, MCAT, GRE.  I’ve taken tests designed to find memory and cognitive deficits, subsequent to a TBI.   I can kick standardized test Butt.  I can kick test of cognitive ability Butt.  I can even kick memory test Butt, just not as high and hard as I used to be able to kick ‘em.

 

I know tests of cognitive ability, and unless the actual tests they give the players are vastly different than the ones online - that ain’t no test of cognitive ability or ability to learn and be coached.

 

Ain’t a test of “random facts” either, though there are some “you either know this or you don’t” questions in there.

 

Kind of a gamish, but reminded me most of the old SAT before they revised the vocab section.

[The Frankish Reich]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Like I said I don't think it's an intelligence exam per se

 

But you have hundreds of pages in a play with the memorize and a lot of little details

 

If you score a 5 on the wonderlic maybe you can't retain all of that.. 

 

And I love you hap, Josh Allen still throws a football a thousand times better than Lamar... So there's a lot of questions to me what would happen if Lamar can't run anymore

 

If Josh  can't run he wouldn't be as dynamic.. but he would still be slinging the rock all over the field

Agreed. And think about what we've seen a lot of this year: free agents signed off the street because a team has multiple QBs out on the COVID protocol.

If I'm a GM wondering which street free agent to sign, I'm probably going to want a guy who can learn the playbook quickly. The Bills were in that situation back in 2013 and we signed Thad Lewis. He wasn't a top prospect so there was no Wonderlic on him, but he went to Duke, and they have some academic standards, so that probably weighed in his favor. On the other hand signing Vince Young (all-time low Wonderlic) to play with little prep time would be a mistake. 

It isn't all "which of these blue chip QBs/1st round picks will have the best career." Sometimes it's about finding value in lower rounds or UDFAs or emergency QBs.

A certain 6th round QB scored a 33 (well above average) way back in 2000. I think he may still be playing somewhere ... 

[Saxum]

4 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

No, Allen higher...at least according to this:

Wonderlic scores for 2018 QBs

Josh Allen: 37

Josh Rosen: 29

Sam Darnold: 28

Baker Mayfield: 25

Lamar Jackson: 13

 

 

RBs usually get lower scores.

[Augie]

19 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Why does it bother you?

40 yard time, cone drill time, height, weight, hand size, all published at the Combine.

We have some kind of weird hangup in America now about just one thing: measurement of intellect.

My kid's school stopped publishing the Honor Roll. Now you have to log-in to get that top secret info. Why do they allow the basketball box scores to be published? Or the cross country times? You can win all kinds of awards and trophies for physical achievements, but intellectual achievements must be all hush-hush.

 

Because it is taken and used by some as the opposite of the Honor Roll. The Honor Roll recognizes select people for outstanding achievement. The Wonderlic scores are used to denigrate people like Vince Young or Lamar Jackson. Surely you’ve seen that. I don’t think transcripts of interviews or video clips of white board sessions belong in the public domain either. 

 

Things like height, weight, 40 times, etc. are purely physical. For better or worse, you are not entitled to know my SAT scores.  It’s none of your business. And I don’t get you know your SAT scores or how you ranked in your class.  If you are applying for a job with ME, that is different. But that doesn’t mean I should post your results in the cafeteria or on a billboard.

 

The Honor Roll recognizes top performers, while the Wonderlic is often used to look down on people for poor performance. You are entitled to your opinion, and we can just agree to disagree. 

 

 

.

 

.

Edited January 6, 2022 by Augie

[The Frankish Reich]

2 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Because it is taken and used by some as the opposite of the Honor Roll. The Honor Roll recognizes select people for a outstanding achieve. The Wonderlic scores are used to denigrate people like Vince Young or Lamar Jackson. Surely you’ve seen that. I don’t think transcripts of interviews or video clips of white board sessions belong in the public domain either. 

 

Things like height, weight, 40 times, etc. are purely physical. For better or worse, you are not entitled to know my SAT scores.  It’s none of your business. And I don’t get you know your SAT scores or how you ranked in your class. The Honor Roll recognizes top performers, while the Wonderlic is often used to look down on people for poor performance. You are entitled to your opinion, and we can just agree to disagree. 

I see your point. I just think that if I'm gonna know your hand size I might as well know your brain size too.

[Augie]

5 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I see your point. I just think that if I'm gonna know your hand size I might as well know your brain size too.

 

I’d rather be called slow than stupid. People who know me well would argue that I am both. 😋

[purple haze]

23 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Oh so forget mental acumen, it is only physical acumen is it?  Mental acumen is related to football?  The wonderlic measures mental acumen which is critical for the NFL esp with QBs.  Brady example #1.  Football related topics are far too subjective and prone to interpretation

 

There is no such thing as a "perfect" or perfectly "fair" standardized test, yes its a bummer but that is the real world.

Mental acumen is related to football.  Can a player tell me what cover 2 or what cover 3 is, man over, press man, quarters, etc.  can they tell me what the concept is?  What that call is trying to accomplish?  Can they recommend a specific defense for a certain type of player or play call from an offense, etc.  Can a QB tell me what play is effective against certain defensive calls and why?  Can they reason out an audible based on another set of facts introduced?   That would make sense. I suspect that’s part of what they do when meeting with NFL coaches.  
 

Players’ college and even high school coaches can tell you how they learn. How to best coach them.   Film can tell you how a player reacts to different situations by down, distance and point in the game.  Did they do their job successfully?  We’re they thrown off by an unexpected twist from the other team?  Why did they respond how they did?  Did they play well most of games, but not as well in 4th quarters?  Did they play better in tight games?  Worse?  
 

Everything you say the Wonderlic does can be found out without players sitting for the Wonderlic.

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

4 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

I’d rather be called slow than stupid. People who know me well would argue that I am both. 😋

Yeah, but it's immediately evident to anyone who sees me that I'm slow. It takes them a while to figure out the stupid part.

[ToGoGo]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don’t think anyone would debate that intelligence plays a major role in pro football success.

 

I think the debate is whether the Wonderlic actually measures native intelligence, vs. a specific set of educational skills which may or may not be relevant to football

My understanding is that like the SAT, it’s been found to trend more towards the latter.

 

That's fine, but what are they going to replace it with? Nothing?

 

Well that's odd. What's the real motive? 

[purple haze]

13 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I see your point. I just think that if I'm gonna know your hand size I might as well know your brain size too.

You might not be getting their brain size though.  You get the results from that test.  So, there’s that.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

That's fine, but what are they going to replace it with? Nothing?

 

My guess is they are going to leave it to the teams to assess football-relevant intelligence by whatever means they prefer - film analysis, explaining a play and then coming back to it after a while and seeing how much the player retains, possibly the individual teams will be able to administer Wonderlics or a different intelligence test if they believe it’s important.

 

 

[78thealltimegreat]

Think Vince Young has the record for the lowest ever with 6 but he still went number 3 overall so doubt it really means alot to certain teams out here