*[EDIT]* Multiple reports Browns actively shopping Mayfield pg. 29/30 - Ravens / Browns in QB contract pickle

[Scott7975]

58 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:

I agree that Lamar Jackson is in a better place than Mayfield.  He made the pro bowl for one thing, though I have no idea how he could have, comparing his stats the Josh Allen's.  The main reason is that the Ravens went all in with Lamar Jackson's skill set when they hired Greg Roman as their OC, and built the team around Jackson's skill set.  If the Ravens move on from Jackson, it means a considerable rebuild as there just aren't that many elite QBs with a skill set that's compatible with Jackson and the offense Roman has designed.  As long as John Harbaugh thinks there is a possibility of winning with Jackson, I think the Ravens will try to hold on to him.

 

I mean you act like they would have to rebuild the whole team.  Why would they?  Can an elite passer not utilize Mark Andrews?  Does an elite passer not benefit from an o line and good running game?  What would they really need to do here?  Add a WR maybe?

[Brand J]

12 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

We are talking about QB salaries being too high/out of control, but they really aren't--especially with a steadily growing cap.  

 

Limiting it to 20% of the cap will always affect very few QBs and won't significantly alter these 40-50 million/yr contracts going forward.

But at least it’d put a ceiling on it and teams wouldn’t have to worry about that 24% of the cap ballooning to 30% because an agent did his job well. It’s reminds me of the cap they had to put on rookie salaries because those were getting outrageous. There’s no harm in a max deal per position that represents a percentage of the cap. If anything it benefits the other players/positions who might have made less money otherwise.

2 hours ago, Bimmer323i said:

But but Nick Wright and Jeff Saturday said last year Baker is better than Allen🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣oh and some other idiot I can’t remember his name said he would take Jackson over Allen…. 

That would be Keyshawn Johnson and he said it as recently as The Perfect Game.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

2 hours ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

 

I would definitely pay Lamar in the ballpark of Allen.

 

I can’t just decide a player‘s contract based on the playoffs I have to factor in the entire picture.

 

If that was the case then I’m paying Josh Allen $258 Million to to be a .500 quarterback in the playoffs.

 

Its more than just playoff performance.  It’s for the whole package both on and off the field.

 

Its for the League MVP…it’s for the dynamic plays … it’s for the 41-17 Overall Record…it’s for the moments when Lamar makes the call on 4th down to go for it and beat Mahomes.

 

And it’s for the projection of what He will develop into and the team will be when healthy.

 

 They're both going into year 5, if you think there's alot more development to be had, I think you're going to be disappointed. 4 years in and Lamar still has a hard time throwing outside the numbers. His passing game has benefitted greatly from areally good running game and because teams are scared of him taking off. What happens when he begins to slow and the hits start adding up? He's pretty small(212 LBs), not anywhere near Allen's size. Then he'll have to rely strictly on his passing game and the defenses won't be scared anymore if he takes off.

 

 One of the very few reasons you pay a QB over 40 million a year is for their performance in the playoffs. That along with leadership and durability.

 

 While I agree we're not paying Josh to be a .500 QB in the playoffs, but we are paying him 258 million to perform the way he did in this year's playoffs. Things like he did in the game against the Pats*** when he and the offense were nearly perfect, in subzero windchills no less. Or for the things he did in the Chiefs game, especially the last 17 minutes. 

 

 I don't think anyone is putting that loss on Josh, he was the only reason we had a chance in that game. Most call it the best quarterbacked game in playoff history.

 

 Lamar hasn't had to face that in the playoffs. The Ravens defense has never given up anywhere near 42 points in the playoffs when Lamar was a starter. They have given up an average of 20.25 points in those 4 games, I know at least 7 of those points were on an INT thrown by Lamar in the game against us last year. In the 4 games he's started the defense has given up 28, 23, 17(really 10) & 13 points. Those are reasonable totals, ones where the defense has given him a chance to showcase his skills and win those games.

 

I did point out the stats for both QBs in the playoffs. Things like Lamar's 55.8 Comp.%, mid 60's QB Rating, lack of TDs and scoring and more INTs than total TDs vs Allen's career QB Rating, which is the highest of any QB in playoff history or his career 14:1 Passing TD to INT ratio, which is the best in playoff history. One team is now losing in the playoffs despite nearly perfect QB play and the other is still losing because of it's QB play. Really the only thing Josh did wrong in the 2 playoff games this year was call tails. Lamar just hasn't produced the way Josh has now proven he can. Let's see if Lamar can ever lead his team to anything close to the 12 TDs on only 16 drives in a playoff year like Josh did this year, averaging 41.5 points a game. 

 

 Admittedly Lamar had the jump on Allen the first few years with his performance on the field, but anyone can see Josh is vastly better than Lamar now. 16 TDs and 13 INTs in 12 games is not worth anywhere near Josh Allen money. Here's another great stat....103. That's how many TDs Josh has accounted for in the last 2 years(Inc. Playoffs) out of our 130 that were scored by the offense. 87 Passing, 15 Rushing and 1 Receiving. That's the most total TDs in the league. Lamar has accounted for only 52 during that span.

 

 Josh's numbers and performances are steadily climbing while Lamar's numbers and performances are steadily going down the last 2 years. Again you want to pay a QB top 2-3 money in the league when it looks like his ceiling was hit in his 2nd year and his numbers are dropping yearly ever since? That makes absolutely no sense.

 

 

[Big Turk]

1 hour ago, BigAl2526 said:

I agree that Lamar Jackson is in a better place than Mayfield.  He made the pro bowl for one thing, though I have no idea how he could have, comparing his stats the Josh Allen's.  The main reason is that the Ravens went all in with Lamar Jackson's skill set when they hired Greg Roman as their OC, and built the team around Jackson's skill set.  If the Ravens move on from Jackson, it means a considerable rebuild as there just aren't that many elite QBs with a skill set that's compatible with Jackson and the offense Roman has designed.  As long as John Harbaugh thinks there is a possibility of winning with Jackson, I think the Ravens will try to hold on to him.

 

He is a former MVP also

[RyanC883]

23 minutes ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 They're both going into year 5, if you think there's alot more development to be had, I think you're going to be disappointed. 4 years in and Lamar still has a hard time throwing outside the numbers. His passing game has benefitted greatly from areally good running game and because teams are scared of him taking off. What happens when he begins to slow and the hits start adding up? He's pretty small(212 LBs), not anywhere near Allen's size. Then he'll have to rely strictly on his passing game and the defenses won't be scared anymore if he takes off.

 

 One of the very few reasons you pay a QB over 40 million a year is for their performance in the playoffs. That along with leadership and durability.

 

 While I agree we're not paying Josh to be a .500 QB in the playoffs, but we are paying him 258 million to perform the way he did in this year's playoffs. Things like he did in the game against the Pats*** when he and the offense were nearly perfect, in subzero windchills no less. Or for the things he did in the Chiefs game, especially the last 17 minutes. 

 

 I don't think anyone is putting that loss on Josh, he was the only reason we had a chance in that game. Most call it the best quarterbacked game in playoff history.

 

 Lamar hasn't had to face that in the playoffs. The Ravens defense has never given up anywhere near 42 points in the playoffs when Lamar was a starter. They have given up an average of 20.25 points in those 4 games, I know at least 7 of those points were on an INT thrown by Lamar in the game against us last year. In the 4 games he's started the defense has given up 28, 23, 17(really 10) & 13 points. Those are reasonable totals, ones where the defense has given him a chance to showcase his skills and win those games.

 

I did point out the stats for both QBs in the playoffs. Things like Lamar's 55.8 Comp.%, mid 60's QB Rating, lack of TDs and scoring and more INTs than total TDs vs Allen's career QB Rating, which is the highest of any QB in playoff history or his career 14:1 Passing TD to INT ratio, which is the best in playoff history. One team is now losing in the playoffs despite nearly perfect QB play and the other is still losing because of it's QB play. Really the only thing Josh did wrong in the 2 playoff games this year was call tails. Lamar just hasn't produced the way Josh has now proven he can. Let's see if Lamar can ever lead his team to anything close to the 12 TDs on only 16 drives in a playoff year like Josh did this year, averaging 41.5 points a game. 

 

 Admittedly Lamar had the jump on Allen the first few years with his performance on the field, but anyone can see Josh is vastly better than Lamar now. 16 TDs and 13 INTs in 12 games is not worth anywhere near Josh Allen money. Here's another great stat....103. That's how many TDs Josh has accounted for in the last 2 years(Inc. Playoffs) out of our 130 that were scored by the offense. 87 Passing, 15 Rushing and 1 Receiving. That's the most total TDs in the league. Lamar has accounted for only 52 during that span.

 

 Josh's numbers and performances are steadily climbing while Lamar's numbers and performances are steadily going down the last 2 years. Again you want to pay a QB top 2-3 money in the league when it looks like his ceiling was hit in his 2nd year and his numbers are dropping yearly ever since? That makes absolutely no sense.

 

 

 

Josh has been great in the playoffs.  Too bad so many let him down this year. 

[BuffaloBills1998]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

But at least it’d put a ceiling on it and teams wouldn’t have to worry about that 24% of the cap ballooning to 30% because an agent did his job well. It’s reminds me of the cap they had to put on rookie salaries because those were getting outrageous. There’s no harm in a max deal per position that represents a percentage of the cap. If anything it benefits the other players/positions who might have made less money otherwise.

That would be Keyshawn Johnson and he said it as recently as The Perfect Game.

Keyshawn played for the Jets and the buccaneers. He wouldn’t know what a good QB was if he danced naked in front of him lol

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

But at least it’d put a ceiling on it and teams wouldn’t have to worry about that 24% of the cap ballooning to 30% because an agent did his job well. It’s reminds me of the cap they had to put on rookie salaries because those were getting outrageous. There’s no harm in a max deal per position that represents a percentage of the cap. If anything it benefits the other players/positions who might have made less money otherwise.

That would be Keyshawn Johnson and he said it as recently as The Perfect Game.

 

It's a solution in search a problem.

 

Non-rookie franchise QB will always be the most expensive player on the roster.  It rarely crosses 20% of the annual budget, so limiting it at 20% is arbitrary and largely meaningless.  It would only make sense if the cap never increased but it always does, so it doesn't make sense. 

[Green Lightning]

Dunno, I can't see either one of them as SB QBs. Top D's will contain Lamarr and Baker's ceiling is what we're seeing.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

2 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

I agree that Lamar Jackson is in a better place than Mayfield.  He made the pro bowl for one thing, though I have no idea how he could have, comparing his stats the Josh Allen's.  The main reason is that the Ravens went all in with Lamar Jackson's skill set when they hired Greg Roman as their OC, and built the team around Jackson's skill set.  If the Ravens move on from Jackson, it means a considerable rebuild as there just aren't that many elite QBs with a skill set that's compatible with Jackson and the offense Roman has designed.  As long as John Harbaugh thinks there is a possibility of winning with Jackson, I think the Ravens will try to hold on to him.

 

First let me get this out of the way before I go any further.....I believe the Ravens should try to hang onto Lamar and I don't believe there's a debate on whether the Ravens should or shouldn't. But I do believe there's a debate on the dollar amount. If the tweet is correct on the dollar amount that would make him one of the top 2-3 highest paid players in the league. The question then is would it benefit the Ravens long term more to pay him that amount or try and trade him for a bunch of picks. Then you could either draft one this year or next while starting the back up for a year or 2 or try and trade for someone like Aaron Rodger or try and sign someone like Mitch. 

 

To the bolded part of your comment...I'm not questioning Lamar's skill set or the lack of his skill set in the league, but at some point shouldn't the skill set need to lead to results if he's going to be paid like that? Division titles are great, but when all you get is a 1-3 record in the playoffs with very average QB play(Probably below average)is it worth it?

 

 To me Lamar is living off of his MVP 2nd year, his play dipped last year and crashed this year. Josh led the NFL in total TDs over the last 2 years(Inc. Playoffs) with 103, Lamar only has 52, that's a huge difference. Or their play in the playoffs.....Josh's play in the playoffs has improved every year and this year he was nearly perfect, Lamar averages 1 total TD per game in the playoffs and has more INTs than TDs(5 vs 4). His record is 1-3.

 

 What's going to happen in 2023 when you have to start paying on that new big contract and the rest of the team around you isn't as good, Lamar's numbers are going to have to improve by alot vs what he's done over the last 2 years. If they both make pretty much the same amount, I think Allen's play & performance is far more suited for when that day comes than Lamar is.

 

 Come to think of it,  I forgot to mention injury risk, Lamar isn't exactly the biggest QB out there(212 LBs). He missed a stretch this year because of injury.

 

Don't get me wrong, I hope they break the bank for him, but I think it will only hurt them in the long run if they do.

 

 

40 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

Josh has been great in the playoffs.  Too bad so many let him down this year. 

 

 I 100% agree.

 

 

[Brand J]

41 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

It's a solution in search a problem.

 

Non-rookie franchise QB will always be the most expensive player on the roster.  It rarely crosses 20% of the annual budget, so limiting it at 20% is arbitrary and largely meaningless.  It would only make sense if the cap never increased but it always does, so it doesn't make sense. 

That’s the great thing about an ever increasing cap - it also increases the amount a max player can earn, even if there was a fixed percentage.
It doesn’t have to be 20%, that was just me throwing out a number, but it’s true with everything - it’s not a problem until it becomes a problem. If I had the time, I’d go back and dig into what QBs used to make in relation to the salary cap and I can bet you the percentage to which their contracts have occupied the cap has grown significantly in the last few years and there’s nothing in place to limit what that number can reach. Again, there’s no harm in setting proportional limits. If you think there is, or that QB salaries won’t continue to climb - percentage wise - in relation to the salary cap, then we can agree to disagree. The evidence is already there.

[ganesh]

3 hours ago, BigAl2526 said:

I agree that Lamar Jackson is in a better place than Mayfield.  He made the pro bowl for one thing, though I have no idea how he could have, comparing his stats the Josh Allen's.  The main reason is that the Ravens went all in with Lamar Jackson's skill set when they hired Greg Roman as their OC, and built the team around Jackson's skill set.  If the Ravens move on from Jackson, it means a considerable rebuild as there just aren't that many elite QBs with a skill set that's compatible with Jackson and the offense Roman has designed.  As long as John Harbaugh thinks there is a possibility of winning with Jackson, I think the Ravens will try to hold on to him.

The Ravens went 0-4 with Huntley as their QB down the stretch.  It killed their playoff chances.   I think LJ is definitely in a better place and the Ravens know it.  

[ALF]

I think Lamar and Baker will get a big contract but a lot less guaranteed just in case.

[Mr. WEO]

27 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

That’s the great thing about an ever increasing cap - it also increases the amount a max player can earn, even if there was a fixed percentage.
It doesn’t have to be 20%, that was just me throwing out a number, but it’s true with everything - it’s not a problem until it becomes a problem. If I had the time, I’d go back and dig into what QBs used to make in relation to the salary cap and I can bet you the percentage to which their contracts have occupied the cap has grown significantly in the last few years and there’s nothing in place to limit what that number can reach. Again, there’s no harm in setting proportional limits. If you think there is, or that QB salaries won’t continue to climb - percentage wise - in relation to the salary cap, then we can agree to disagree. The evidence is already there.

 

yup...and it's right here.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/quarterback/.   pick a year.  over 20% very rare. based on estimated cap for 2023 and 2024, Mahomes's (for instance) drops to the mid-teens...

 

 

No owner is going to agree to limit how much he can spend on a player, so there's certainly no chance as a group they would decide to.  A QB contract is a calculated risk that he and his GM are making and it's part of how the league runs--it's part of the strategy of putting together a team that they all are competing to do under a cap.  

 

Even with the massive salaries for a few QBs coming due the next few years, it's still 20% or less.  A limit solves no problem.  

 

[Brand J]

19 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

yup...and it's right here.

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/positional/quarterback/.   pick a year.  over 20% very rare. based on estimated cap for 2023 and 2024, Mahomes's (for instance) drops to the mid-teens...

 

 

No owner is going to agree to limit how much he can spend on a player, so there's certainly no chance as a group they would decide to.  A QB contract is a calculated risk that he and his GM are making and it's part of how the league runs--it's part of the strategy of putting together a team that they all are competing to do under a cap.  

 

Even with the massive salaries for a few QBs coming due the next few years, it's still 20% or less.  A limit solves no problem.  

 

I can’t access prior years, think I have to register. Pick 2013, 2014, and 2015, what percentage of the cap did the top QB salaries tie up? Now do the same for the last 3 years. Has that percentage increased as I suspect it has? Again, it’s not a problem until it becomes a problem and I equate it to the cap that had to be put on rookie contracts because they ballooned out of control. Once upon a time those contracts weren’t a problem either…

 

As to the bold, league owners can and will step in to institute corrective measures as they see fit, if the situation dictates. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by JayBaller10

[Mr. WEO]

9 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I can’t access prior years, think I have to register. Pick 2013, 2014, and 2015, what percentage of the cap did the top QB salaries tie up? Now do the same for the last 3 years. Has that percentage increased as I suspect it has? Again, it’s not a problem until it becomes a problem and I equate it to the cap that had to be put on rookie contracts because they ballooned out of control. Once upon a time those contracts weren’t a problem either…

 

As to the bold, league owners can and will step in to institute corrective measures as they see fit, if the situation dictates. 

 

 

Again, look at 2018 through 2024, the % really isn't going up.  

 

Owners do not see this as a problem going forward.  They would be crazy to agree to more limits and rules on their spending.  This idea makes no sense.

[Brand J]

11 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Again, look at 2018 through 2024, the % really isn't going up.  

 

Owners do not see this as a problem going forward.  They would be crazy to agree to more limits and rules on their spending.  This idea makes no sense.

You probably would’ve said the same when the rookie contracts weren’t out of hand 😂 You don’t speak for the owners and again, I can’t access the content without paying for the premium. The fact you didn’t reference the earlier years tells me the percentage has in fact gone up. Percentage allocation gives players max value contracts, it does make sense and is used in other leagues.

[Bimmer323i]

3 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

But at least it’d put a ceiling on it and teams wouldn’t have to worry about that 24% of the cap ballooning to 30% because an agent did his job well. It’s reminds me of the cap they had to put on rookie salaries because those were getting outrageous. There’s no harm in a max deal per position that represents a percentage of the cap. If anything it benefits the other players/positions who might have made less money otherwise.

That would be Keyshawn Johnson and he said it as recently as The Perfect Game.

Keyshawn is such a jerk he is cringe worthy to listen to to say the least 

2 minutes ago, Bimmer323i said:

Keyshawn is such a jerk he is cringe worthy to listen to to say the least 

Sometimes you gotta wonder if they really mean it or there just trying to draw attention to themselves…

[Mr. WEO]

4 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

You probably would’ve said the same when the rookie contracts weren’t out of hand 😂 You don’t speak for the owners and again, I can’t access the content without paying for the premium. The fact you didn’t reference the earlier years tells me the percentage has in fact gone up. Percentage allocation gives players max value contracts, it does make sense and is used in other leagues.

 

I've told you it's under 20% from 4 years ago and going forward 3 more years---despite ballooning QB contracts. Put another way, the Chiefs would have to significantly INCREASE Mahomes's salary in 2024 to get to your spending limit of 20%.  Josh Allan's agent would also no doubt scream for the Bills to increase his newly signed contract to the "allowable" max of 20% of the cap.  Same thing for Dak, etc.

 

So it makes no sense--I don't know how else to tell you.

 

And owners were obviously tired of blowing huge money on roll of the dice 1st round picks.   Rookie pay scale has allowed them to free up money for second contracts, which they are clearly happy to pay--and have little reason to be concerned about veteran QB contracts because they know future increases in cap easily cover these contracts.  The teams project this when crafting the offer, obviously.

[Brand J]

3 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I've told you it's under 20% from 4 years ago and going forward 3 more years---despite ballooning QB contracts. Put another way, the Chiefs would have to significantly INCREASE Mahomes's salary in 2024 to get to your spending limit of 20%.  Josh Allan's agent would also no doubt scream for the Bills to increase his newly signed contract to the "allowable" max of 20% of the cap.  Same thing for Dak, etc.

 

So it makes no sense--I don't know how else to tell you.

 

And owners were obviously tired of blowing huge money on roll of the dice 1st round picks.   Rookie pay scale has allowed them to free up money for second contracts, which they are clearly happy to pay--and have little reason to be concerned about veteran QB contracts because they know future increases in cap easily cover these contracts.  The teams project this when crafting the offer, obviously.

You seem hyper focused on this 20% number. I told you, it’s just something I threw out, that’s not where the importance lies - it lies in making sure the contracts of one position don’t continue to balloon to the detriment of the league and it’s other players. Every QB’s agent will want more than what the previous one signed for and will argue for it. That’s how things get out of hand because the team has no choice but to pay - if it doesn’t, another franchise will. Let max contracts come to the NFL in the coming years, I’ll be sure to tag you. 

[dave mcbride]

6 hours ago, K-9 said:

A market correction? Has there ever been a market correction for salaries in the NFL?

No because the league revenues go up. That is what drives it, not teams overpaying.