*[EDIT]* Multiple reports Browns actively shopping Mayfield pg. 29/30 - Ravens / Browns in QB contract pickle

[Royale with Cheese]

22 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

Sorry been tied up with some things so I could respond sooner.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and again I'm not disputing Allen being in the upper 3rd of NFL QB's from a statistical standpoint.  He is and only a fool would tell you otherwise.

 

The crux of my argument is that you have to look at the accolades that matter (at least in terms of the 'experts') and prior to 2021 Allen had one good season on film which many felt (and still feel) was fluky because of the covid year circumstances. So if we are debating the fact that his extension was given on potential that's another thing, but in terms of being a proven commodity Allen really isn't yet unless he can elevate this team to another level in the playoffs and at minimum make another AFCCG appearance.

 

But going back to my personal feelings, I'm still taking the guys I mentioned over Allen today because I'm not a biased fan and have seen more pure raw talent to believe they are going to be all time great HOF types that win multiple championships and/or elevate their teams. Allen could be too but still think the odds are against that if anything because of how inconsistent he still is 4 years into his career.

 

[gonzo1105]

I'd only commit to Jackson but I also wouldn't give Jackson the type of deal Mahomes or Allen got. I'm talking 4 years 125 million with a lot guaranteed. Both to protect myself from a potential QB slide as a passer, from injury because he runs a lot etc. Would he take that probably not 

[FilthyBeast]

1 minute ago, JGMcD2 said:

Wait a minute…

 

Josh Allen needs to elevate his team to another level and at a minimum take them to another AFCCG in order to prove himself. 
 

Meanwhile Justin Herbert has never won his division, Joe Burrow just did for the first time and neither have a playoff game under their belt yet. How in God’s name are they more of a proven quantity than him? Burrow (.462) and Herbert (.484) are both sub .500 in their first two seasons. Josh was winning games at a .555 clip his first two years. 

Inconsistent 4 years into his career? The man has statistically been a top 3 QB the past two seasons and has progressed year to year. His numbers are down SLIGHTLY from last year, but nothing that’s overwhelmingly concerning considering he’s still 80% of a top 3 scoring offense in football. His “inconsistency” today is extremely different than his inconsistency as a rookie. Don’t try and lump the two in together, it’s disingenuous. His down games today still result in multi-score wins and his best games have him shredding the NFL’s top defenses.

 

Do you ever read back through what you’ve said and realize nothing adds up? 

 

The bottom line is if you are going to pay a guy $250M dollars you better be damn sure he's an elite top 3 QB in this league and wins multiple SB's in the near term or it's makes zero sense to do that. The more logical thing is to aware someone after they have risen to the top like Mahomes.

 

Mahomes was a league MVP in year two (essentially his rookie season since he only played the season finale his first year), won a SB in year 3 and made it to another in year four. I believe his deal came after year 3 which is fine.

 

Experts in this league (not fans like us) felt Allen wasn't even the top 3 QB in his own conference this year, so again what does this say? But can you really argue with them after he craps all over himself in a game against a terrible Falcons team after having such a great performance the prior week? Also what accolades does he have other than one AFCCG appearance in that you can argue wasn't really on his shoulders (at least not the Ravens game).

 

Again, this goes back to the point that Allen's contract was probably premature. But if he goes on to win a SB this year then case closed regardless of his stats and horrendous outings he had during the regular season.

 

 

[Alphadawg7]

15 hours ago, Evian said:

 

He is a good QB? He threw for 16 TD's and 13 INT this year. He is a great athlete and a mediocre QB at best.  He is like Mayfield. They lack the QB skills to go anywhere in the playoffs against the elite teams. They just are not good enough. 

 

Why do people continuously ONLY state passing production when discussing running QBs?  You know that’s short sighted and skewed to just try and confirm your negative opinion of him.

 

Lamar’s ground game is 100% part of what you get with him, ignoring it or disregarding that production is a completely inaccurate way to evaluate his value to his team.

 

To say Huntley is flat out better at this stage like you did in the post before that seems extreme and not based on known facts yet.  
 

Personally, I don’t think Lamar is going anywhere and will get a long term deal to stay in Baltimore.  Mayfield is not so clear and somethings gonna likely change there between Baker, HC, or GM.  I have a suspicion that not all 3 will be back next year the way it is now, seems like something is gonna give.

[teef]

32 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

Sorry been tied up with some things so I could respond sooner.

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and again I'm not disputing Allen being in the upper 3rd of NFL QB's from a statistical standpoint.  He is and only a fool would tell you otherwise.

 

The crux of my argument is that you have to look at the accolades that matter (at least in terms of the 'experts') and prior to 2021 Allen had one good season on film which many felt (and still feel) was fluky because of the covid year circumstances. So if we are debating the fact that his extension was given on potential that's another thing, but in terms of being a proven commodity Allen really isn't yet unless he can elevate this team to another level in the playoffs and at minimum make another AFCCG appearance.

 

But going back to my personal feelings, I'm still taking the guys I mentioned over Allen today because I'm not a biased fan and have seen more pure raw talent to believe they are going to be all time great HOF types that win multiple championships and/or elevate their teams. Allen could be too but still think the odds are against that if anything because of how inconsistent he still is 4 years into his career.

your comment was that if the bills waited until this year to sign allen, it would have been for less base on his production in 2021.  there's nothing true about that, it's a complete wrong statement no matter how you spin it.  that being said, i love your posting.  

[GunnerBill]

12 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Absolutely Cleveland should have sat Baker when it was clear he wasn’t functioning properly as a QB.  Why else bring in Keenum?  He is proven successful in just this sort of system that Stefanski runs.

 

To be fair to Washington, they felt they were bringing in an alternative when they traded for Alex Smith.  He had just had a career year in KC and historically was tougher than boot leather.  That broken leg was just hella bad luck.

 

Good point re. Smith. I think Cousins > Smith but he certainly was at least a proven, experienced and credible NFL starter. I meant it more as having an alternative in house prior to Cousins walking but I do take the point. They didn't just sit on their hands. They have had some bad luck. Even this year I think that could have been a competitive team with Fitz... maybe even another punchy playoff push. Once he went down they were sunk. 

Edited January 6, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Nitro]

16 hours ago, Evian said:

Lamar Jackson and Baker Mayfield are mediocre at best.

 

Tyler Huntley is a better QB than Jackson. Jackson will never beat the Mahomes, Allens, Herberts, and Burrows of the AFC. He can't throw the ball. Huntley is better than LJ and is way less expensive.

 

Baker Mayfield is gone. He too is never beating the elite AFC quarterbacks. 

 

The Browns and Ravens have tons of talent. The fact both are not making the playoffs all circles back to their non-elite quarterbacks.

 

I don't see either team giving them big money. They are not worth it.

Respectfully disagree.  The reason they are not making the playoffs are three fold:  COVID, injuries to the QBs and injuries to the rest of the team.  Now.  Jackson is an easy decision to keep.  Mayfield is injury prone and erratic.   They either draft a future QB this year or resign him.  You can not forget the franchise history.   Before drafting Mayfield they went through over twenty QBs since 1999.   The Browns will resign Mayfield.  Both will get their money.

[UKBillFan]

4 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

The bottom line is if you are going to pay a guy $250M dollars you better be damn sure he's an elite top 3 QB in this league and wins multiple SB's in the near term or it's makes zero sense to do that. The more logical thing is to aware someone after they have risen to the top like Mahomes.

 

Mahomes was a league MVP in year two (essentially his rookie season since he only played the season finale his first year), won a SB in year 3 and made it to another in year four. I believe his deal came after year 3 which is fine.

 

Experts in this league (not fans like us) felt Allen wasn't even the top 3 QB in his own conference this year, so again what does this say? But can you really argue with them after he craps all over himself in a game against a terrible Falcons team after having such a great performance the prior week? Also what accolades does he have other than one AFCCG appearance in that you can argue wasn't really on his shoulders (at least not the Ravens game).

 

Again, this goes back to the point that Allen's contract was probably premature. But if he goes on to win a SB this year then case closed regardless of his stats and horrendous outings he had during the regular season.

 

 

 

From memory, I read that the players and coaches put Josh in the top three of the Pro Bowl - it was the fans who marked Jackson over him. Not sure whether that’s true or not.

 

I know it isn’t popular on here but I sort of know where you’re coming from; sometimes Josh seems too inconsistent and makes a meal of what should be a simple game. But then, he’s had poor games and yet has put the numbers he has? That’s surely a good sign? Your assertions about Herbert, Burrow and the like are just that - opinions. There is no proof that they will be better than Josh in the long term. Yes, Mahomes definitely has more about him but he’s also played with a stronger roster from the off which has helped him no end. What happened when that roster lost players to injuries and fell to the Bills level? Mahomes didn’t look any better than Josh at his worse.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Saints and Baker Mayfield make a lot of sense.

[eball]

9 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

The bottom line is if you are going to pay a guy $250M dollars you better be damn sure he's an elite top 3 QB in this league and wins multiple SB's in the near term or it's makes zero sense to do that. The more logical thing is to aware someone after they have risen to the top like Mahomes.

 

Mahomes was a league MVP in year two (essentially his rookie season since he only played the season finale his first year), won a SB in year 3 and made it to another in year four. I believe his deal came after year 3 which is fine.

 

Experts in this league (not fans like us) felt Allen wasn't even the top 3 QB in his own conference this year, so again what does this say? But can you really argue with them after he craps all over himself in a game against a terrible Falcons team after having such a great performance the prior week? Also what accolades does he have other than one AFCCG appearance in that you can argue wasn't really on his shoulders (at least not the Ravens game).

 

Again, this goes back to the point that Allen's contract was probably premature. But if he goes on to win a SB this year then case closed regardless of his stats and horrendous outings he had during the regular season.

 

 

 

Fans of who?  Keep trolling, man.

 

[Royale with Cheese]

Baker to the Steelers

[Alphadawg7]

15 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

The bottom line is if you are going to pay a guy $250M dollars you better be damn sure he's an elite top 3 QB in this league and wins multiple SB's in the near term or it's makes zero sense to do that. The more logical thing is to aware someone after they have risen to the top like Mahomes.

 

Mahomes was a league MVP in year two (essentially his rookie season since he only played the season finale his first year), won a SB in year 3 and made it to another in year four. I believe his deal came after year 3 which is fine.

 

Experts in this league (not fans like us) felt Allen wasn't even the top 3 QB in his own conference this year, so again what does this say? But can you really argue with them after he craps all over himself in a game against a terrible Falcons team after having such a great performance the prior week? Also what accolades does he have other than one AFCCG appearance in that you can argue wasn't really on his shoulders (at least not the Ravens game).

 

Again, this goes back to the point that Allen's contract was probably premature. But if he goes on to win a SB this year then case closed regardless of his stats and horrendous outings he had during the regular season.

 

 

Huh?  You don’t think Allens contract is justified?  Allen has been in the MVP conversation the entire season.  
 

Crapped the bed against Falcons?  You mean the game we won by double digits and Allens use of his legs were a major contributor to that as well?

 

I don’t get the statement either of saying he’s done nothing other than reaching the AFCCG.  Well that was just last season, we are still playing this season, so he hasn’t had a chance to do more yet, we haven’t reached that point in the season yet.  But he’s also finished 2nd in MVP voting, 2 straight divisional titles (likely as we should smash the Jets), 3 straight playoff births, and back to back MVP candidate seasons with over 40 TDs each.  Not to mention all his other accolades, NFL records, and Bills team records.  
 

And none of that includes what he brings to the table in terms of leadership, competence drive, and physical attributes that can’t be coached.

 

40+ TD seasons suddenly aren’t elite in your eyes?  He will be elite whether we win the SB this year or not.
 

If the league was to wipe all the teams rosters clean and draft all over again this offseason, Allen is a lock to be drafted in the top 3 which would be Mahomes 1, then Allen and Herbert would be some combo of 2 and 3 depending on the GM drafting.  Burrow would likely go fourth, although he can close that gap with a strong postseason.    

Edited January 6, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Nitro said:

Respectfully disagree.  The reason they are not making the playoffs are three fold:  COVID, injuries to the QBs and injuries to the rest of the team.  Now.  Jackson is an easy decision to keep.  Mayfield is injury prone and erratic.   They either draft a future QB this year or resign him.  You can not forget the franchise history.   Before drafting Mayfield they went through over twenty QBs since 1999.   The Browns will resign Mayfield.  Both will get their money.

 

The Ravens are missing the playoffs because they have been without the best left tackle in football for the whole year, the right tackle they signed as a big FA the whole year and a starting guard who did his ACL week 1. They have been without one former all pro corner for the whole season and their other all pro corner down the stretch. They lost their three best running backs before the season began and their first round receiver didn't play until week 8. Oh and then they lost a veteran starting defensive end for good measure before their Quarterback himself went down.

 

Oh and despite all that they are two missed 2 pointers away from being a locked in playoff team. Yea. The Ravens have not missed the playoffs because of Quarterback play. That is a ridiculous take. 

[cle23]

5 minutes ago, Nitro said:

Respectfully disagree.  The reason they are not making the playoffs are three fold:  COVID, injuries to the QBs and injuries to the rest of the team.  Now.  Jackson is an easy decision to keep.  Mayfield is injury prone and erratic.   They either draft a future QB this year or resign him.  You can not forget the franchise history.   Before drafting Mayfield they went through over twenty QBs since 1999.   The Browns will resign Mayfield.  Both will get their money.

 

Cleveland isn't signing Mayfield to an extension this offseason, unless he signs a deal way under market value, which I doubt.  He has had flashes of great play, but is erratic as well.  He is an above average QB when healthy, but not a $40M a year guy.  So there is a lot of variables here, with the injury and upcoming surgery being the biggest.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

If the league was to wipe all the teams rosters clean and draft all over again this offseason, Allen is a lock to be drafted in the top 3 which would be Mahomes 1, then Allen and Herbert would be some combo of 2 and 3 depending on the GM drafting.  Burrow would likely go fourth, although he can close that gap with a strong postseason.    

 

I think Burrow might even go top 3 but I won't quibble with those 4 in some order. That is pretty much a lock. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

On 1/4/2022 at 6:47 AM, Scott7975 said:

Either team would be fools to give those QBs an Allen type contract.  Lamar is figured out and isn't a good passer of the football.  Im sure Ill get roll eyes, check marks, and flak for this but I don't care.  I've said it from year one and I will continue to say it.  Lamar is not a good QB.  Probably the best athlete on the field but Lamar said it best... not bad for a RB.

 

As far as Baker he has played with a pretty bad injury all year so its hard to judge but based on his overall work, I don't think he is very good either.  He turns the ball over too much.  If he stopped that he would be a good game manager though.

 

If it were me, I would at best franchise tag those QBs or offer them a mid level contract and look to replace them sooner than later.  Anything more than a mid level contract would just set the team back.  Ravens already made that mistake with Flacco.  Will they make the same mistake twice?  Already seen what the Ravens look like this year from injury.  They aren't going to look any better when they can't pay anyone.  Even full strength, Lamar is not winning them a SB.  He is just a regular season super hero.  Not going to get more than that.  Especially not now.  More and more teams are getting better.  More and more teams have figured out the Lamar/Roman formula.  Contain Lamar.  Take Andrews out of the game.  Lamar isn't good enough after that.  I don't care what wideouts they have.

Torn labrum or not, when I watch Baker it's apparent that if he has to move off his spot at all, he literally trips over his own feet and falls down. 

 

Allen makes dodging pressure look so easily, Baker would have 70+ sacks behind this offensive line. 

 

In addition to below average athleticism, Baker also struggles to overcome his height. 

[UKBillFan]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

I think Burrow might even go top 3 but I won't quibble with those 4 in some order. That is pretty much a lock. 

Top six if a team wants to do a Bucs and go on for short term glory as Brady and Rodgers would get chosen early if so. 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, UKBillFan said:

Top six if a team wants to do a Bucs and go on for short term glory as Brady and Rodgers would get chosen early if so. 

 

Fair. But I think if you appointed 32 new GMs and told them they were all safe for 3 years regardless of results it would be the 4 guys @Alphadawg7 mentioned. 

[TheFunPolice]

Baker is about to go be mediocre somewhere else unless the Browns play nice! 

[Frostbite]

17 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

The bottom line is if you are going to pay a guy $250M dollars you better be damn sure he's an elite top 3 QB in this league and wins multiple SB's in the near term or it's makes zero sense to do that. The more logical thing is to aware someone after they have risen to the top like Mahomes.

 

Mahomes was a league MVP in year two (essentially his rookie season since he only played the season finale his first year), won a SB in year 3 and made it to another in year four. I believe his deal came after year 3 which is fine.

 

Experts in this league (not fans like us) felt Allen wasn't even the top 3 QB in his own conference this year, so again what does this say? But can you really argue with them after he craps all over himself in a game against a terrible Falcons team after having such a great performance the prior week? Also what accolades does he have other than one AFCCG appearance in that you can argue wasn't really on his shoulders (at least not the Ravens game).

 

Again, this goes back to the point that Allen's contract was probably premature. But if he goes on to win a SB this year then case closed regardless of his stats and horrendous outings he had during the regular season.

 

 

Can't disagree more. Allen started his career on the most inept team possible. Zero weapons, zero protection and a coaching staff that didn't know how to use him yet. He was set up to fail and somehow, bills fans were able to see he had it. The guy has improved dramatically and literally wills his teams to wins. Had better numbers coming in second place in MVP voting last year than Lamar did 2 years ago - take away Rodger's amazing season and he already has an MVP. 

 

The so called "experts" in the league and not experts - they're glorified statisticians. After Allen's first 2 years, every "expert" was saying how Allen was still going to bust because they saw a low completion %. Anyone who watched him play knew he was something special and just needed a little more time and maybe some actual receivers.

 

Allen is absolutely worth the money. While this season is slightly down from last season, you can't argue he's not producing at an elite level. If we waited to give him a contract, he'd probably command even more because he's proven last season wasnt a fluke.