Does Any Team That Passed on Josh in 2018 Draft NOT Regret It?

[John from Riverside]

Meh......dude cant even make the Pro Bowl

[PromoTheRobot]

You have to ask how many other teams would have nurtured Allen like the Bills did? I think most would have tossed him out there to sink or swim. He would have lived down to the draft guru takes. Players are more than talent. They are the sum of their coaching too.

Edited January 2, 2022 by PromoTheRobot

[Richard Noggin]

5 hours ago, flaz said:

 

I don't think he's think he's reached the grade that teaches algebra 

Which grade teaches proofreading, though?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

47 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

You have to ask how many other teams would have nurtured Allen like the Bills did? I think most would have tossed him out there to sink or swim. He would have lived down to the draft guru takes. Players are more than talent. They are the sum of their coaching too.

how much did we actually nurture him though? It was probably a blessing he inured his elbow to get some more time learning in the film room. But I’ve always thought Allen’s athletic ability would have enabled him to succeed anyway. It’s not like the Bills had a great supporting cast around him his rookie year.

 

so many other fans of other teams always say, “yea if he was a Jet or Bronco he would have flamed out just like Darnold or Locke” I think that greatly undersells Allen’s own talents though. And since Allen was not surrounded by the best offensive talent his first year I don’t really buy that argument. Even the talent around him his second year was only average at best.

[Zerovoltz]

3 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

@Zerovoltz is pretty good at explaining how the Broncos screwed up the top of rhe 2018 draft.

 

 

 

For those interested -

 

Denver is a great case study on how teams can ruin a draft with moves and decisions far off from draft day itself.

 

coming off the 2017 Season, Denver had just gone 5-11 with 11 Starts from Siemien, and a few from Oswieler and a couple from Lynch.  Lynch as many will recall, had been drafted by the Broncos late in round 1 of the 2016 NFL Draft.  It is a confirmed fact that both Jerry Jones of the Cowboys and Andy Ried of the Chiefs also wanted Lynch.  

 

Going into that draft Dallas had no.4 overall, that they used on Ezekial Elliot, and had picks 34 (rd 2) and 67 (rd 3)  

KC had pick 28 (rd 1) pick 59 (rd 2) and didn't have a 3rd round choice...which is VERY important, and I'll get to it in a moment.

Denver had pick 31 (rd 1) 63 (rd2) and 94 (rd 3)

 

As the draft progressed toward the later part of round 1, it was known by the Broncos, Chiefs and Cowboys that all 3 were looking to draft Lynch.  When Seattle and Pick 26 came up, they were willing to deal out and started taking calls.  Denver ultimately traded 31 and 94 to move up to 26 and take Paxton Lynch.  Kansas City only would have needed to move up 2 spots from 28 to 26 but did not have a third round selection to beat Denvers offer.  KC did have a 4th at 126, but clearly 31 and 94 are better than 28 and 126.  The Cowboys also couldn't beat Denvers offer....and ended up taking Dak Prescott later on.

 

The next domino to fall for Denver was the rift this caused between Gary Kubiak and John Elway.  Kubiak who was the head coach, did not want Paxton Lynch...as it turns out, he wanted Prescott.  It should be noted that Prescott missed a flight to Denver for a pre draft interview with Elway.  Kubiak would go on and coach the Broncos in 2016, with Trevor Simien, not Lynch, as his QB.  Lynch couldn't beat out Simien, a rookie 7th rounder.  Kubiak "retired" after the 2016 season.

 

Elway hired Vance Joseph to be the new HC in 2017.  Lynch, could not beat out Simien still, and Brock Oswieler was also back at this point.  The Broncos went 5-11 and it was clear at this piont that Lynch was a bust but......Joseph was only 1 year into his contract and Denver still had alot of the peices on defense that won them super bowl 50.  During the offseason, Elway considered a coaching change and new direction, but decided to retain the staff and announce publicly that the staff would return but must win to earn another season. It was a public ultimatum.   At this point they were  NOT drafting a QB.  It is unusual a team with a lame duck coach, to draft a QB...the coach doesn't have the luxury of time to develop that QB.  Denver then signed Case Keenum, further cementing the idea they weren't in the QB market heading into the 2018 Draft.....and Lynch was still on the roster even though at this point it was known he was a bust.  

 

When draft day came, Denver, I believe may have had a deal in place to move out of 5 with Buffalo...but when the Browns surprised everyone at pick 4 and took CB Denzel Ward, Denver stayed at 5 and took Bradley Chubb, DE, North Carolina State.  He's been OK...and hurt quite a bit.  Josh Allen was sitting there, at 5, and couldhave been had for NOTHING, if Denver was in the market.  It was pretty well known Elway really thought highly of Allen but since he had a coach, who had to win now, and was still stung by the Lynch bust, Elway passed.

 

ultimately, Denver would only go 6-10, with poor QB play, Joseph was fired after the year anyhow, Case Keenum proved to not be the answer and Denver went into the 2019 offseason NO BETTER OFF than they had been the year before....and had Josh Allen in their lap.  They would hire Vic Fangio, and trade for a washed up Joe Flacco heading into 2019.

 

...and if you are a Bills fan...that pretty much sums it up....and you can stop reading here if you want...but...remember how I said that missing 3rd round pick in 2016 was very important?  Keep reading if you want to learn more about that....not having that pick set up not just the Broncos and Lynch and those dominoes...but had a profound impact on the Chiefs future as well.

 

Just a few days before that 2016 Draft, KC had to forfiet their 3rd round pick (no 91 overall) due to tampering with Jeremy Maclin who KC ended up signing as a FA.  When it came time to make the move up from 28 to 26, KC didn't have the ammo to beat the Broncos.  Denver got pick 26 for 31 and 94.  KC would have been able to offer 28 and 91 for that pick if Roger Goodell hadn't taken it away for tampering.  

 

Having lost out in the Paxton Lynch derby, KC ended up trading out of pick 28, moving back with the 49ers and 

 Kansas City traded its first-round selection (28th) and seventh-round selection (249th) to San Francisco in exchange for San Francisco's second-, fourth-, and sixth-round selections (37th, 105th, and 178th).  With pick 37 KC would end up taking DT Chris Jones.  with the 4th rounder, KC took OG Parker Ehinger, who they ended up trading to the Cowboys for practice squad CB, Charvarious Ward, who has started for KC the last 3 years.  But more important was that having missed out on Lynch, KC was still in the QB market in 2017, and of course moved up from 27 to 10 in the trade with the Bills and drafted Mahomes.  that 27th overall ended up being Tre White and the next season, the Bills drafted Josh Allen. 

 

How different it all might have been for alot of teams and players....

 

 

 

[PolishPrince]

1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

You have to ask how many other teams would have nurtured Allen like the Bills did? I think most would have tossed him out there to sink or swim. He would have lived down to the draft guru takes. Players are more than talent. They are the sum of their coaching too.

I dont get this,  and I see a lot of media pundits talk about "Bills example of how to groom a young QB." Maybe I am miss-remembering but our staff DID throw him to the wolves halfway through his first game of rookie season against a top defense, and without any solid vets on the team helping him out (until later in season when he got injured).... AFTER he took QB3 reps all training camp. Our offense was the most unskilled awful group I have watched even compared to all of the drought years. Yes Beane went out and got some FA budget WR's and O-Line (outside of Morse not being budget). But thats about it. We still complain about our Oline, and we havent spent high draft picks to help Josh out like the Bengals have. 

 

From what I remember from Josh's rookie season the Bills did about everything they could have TO bungle Josh's development.

Edited January 2, 2022 by PolishPrince

[Ethan in Cleveland]

5 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

You have to ask how many other teams would have nurtured Allen like the Bills did? I think most would have tossed him out there to sink or swim. He would have lived down to the draft guru takes. Players are more than talent. They are the sum of their coaching too.

Huh?  This makes no sense.  The Bills did exactly what you say others teams would do and screw up their QB.  Allen took over for Peterman in the first game of his rookie season.  And then he started week 2.  He was the starter until he injured his elbow.  Then they fired his first OC at the end of the season.    

[mannc]

5 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

For those interested -

 

Denver is a great case study on how teams can ruin a draft with moves and decisions far off from draft day itself.

 

coming off the 2017 Season, Denver had just gone 5-11 with 11 Starts from Siemien, and a few from Oswieler and a couple from Lynch.  Lynch as many will recall, had been drafted by the Broncos late in round 1 of the 2016 NFL Draft.  It is a confirmed fact that both Jerry Jones of the Cowboys and Andy Ried of the Chiefs also wanted Lynch.  

 

Going into that draft Dallas had no.4 overall, that they used on Ezekial Elliot, and had picks 34 (rd 2) and 67 (rd 3)  

KC had pick 28 (rd 1) pick 59 (rd 2) and didn't have a 3rd round choice...which is VERY important, and I'll get to it in a moment.

Denver had pick 31 (rd 1) 63 (rd2) and 94 (rd 3)

 

As the draft progressed toward the later part of round 1, it was known by the Broncos, Chiefs and Cowboys that all 3 were looking to draft Lynch.  When Seattle and Pick 26 came up, they were willing to deal out and started taking calls.  Denver ultimately traded 31 and 94 to move up to 26 and take Paxton Lynch.  Kansas City only would have needed to move up 2 spots from 28 to 26 but did not have a third round selection to beat Denvers offer.  KC did have a 4th at 126, but clearly 31 and 94 are better than 28 and 126.  The Cowboys also couldn't beat Denvers offer....and ended up taking Dak Prescott later on.

 

The next domino to fall for Denver was the rift this caused between Gary Kubiak and John Elway.  Kubiak who was the head coach, did not want Paxton Lynch...as it turns out, he wanted Prescott.  It should be noted that Prescott missed a flight to Denver for a pre draft interview with Elway.  Kubiak would go on and coach the Broncos in 2016, with Trevor Simien, not Lynch, as his QB.  Lynch couldn't beat out Simien, a rookie 7th rounder.  Kubiak "retired" after the 2016 season.

 

Elway hired Vance Joseph to be the new HC in 2017.  Lynch, could not beat out Simien still, and Brock Oswieler was also back at this point.  The Broncos went 5-11 and it was clear at this piont that Lynch was a bust but......Joseph was only 1 year into his contract and Denver still had alot of the peices on defense that won them super bowl 50.  During the offseason, Elway considered a coaching change and new direction, but decided to retain the staff and announce publicly that the staff would return but must win to earn another season. It was a public ultimatum.   At this point they were  NOT drafting a QB.  It is unusual a team with a lame duck coach, to draft a QB...the coach doesn't have the luxury of time to develop that QB.  Denver then signed Case Keenum, further cementing the idea they weren't in the QB market heading into the 2018 Draft.....and Lynch was still on the roster even though at this point it was known he was a bust.  

 

When draft day came, Denver, I believe may have had a deal in place to move out of 5 with Buffalo...but when the Browns surprised everyone at pick 4 and took CB Denzel Ward, Denver stayed at 5 and took Bradley Chubb, DE, North Carolina State.  He's been OK...and hurt quite a bit.  Josh Allen was sitting there, at 5, and couldhave been had for NOTHING, if Denver was in the market.  It was pretty well known Elway really thought highly of Allen but since he had a coach, who had to win now, and was still stung by the Lynch bust, Elway passed.

 

ultimately, Denver would only go 6-10, with poor QB play, Joseph was fired after the year anyhow, Case Keenum proved to not be the answer and Denver went into the 2019 offseason NO BETTER OFF than they had been the year before....and had Josh Allen in their lap.  They would hire Vic Fangio, and trade for a washed up Joe Flacco heading into 2019.

 

...and if you are a Bills fan...that pretty much sums it up....and you can stop reading here if you want...but...remember how I said that missing 3rd round pick in 2016 was very important?  Keep reading if you want to learn more about that....not having that pick set up not just the Broncos and Lynch and those dominoes...but had a profound impact on the Chiefs future as well.

 

Just a few days before that 2016 Draft, KC had to forfiet their 3rd round pick (no 91 overall) due to tampering with Jeremy Maclin who KC ended up signing as a FA.  When it came time to make the move up from 28 to 26, KC didn't have the ammo to beat the Broncos.  Denver got pick 26 for 31 and 94.  KC would have been able to offer 28 and 91 for that pick if Roger Goodell hadn't taken it away for tampering.  

 

Having lost out in the Paxton Lynch derby, KC ended up trading out of pick 28, moving back with the 49ers and 

 Kansas City traded its first-round selection (28th) and seventh-round selection (249th) to San Francisco in exchange for San Francisco's second-, fourth-, and sixth-round selections (37th, 105th, and 178th).  With pick 37 KC would end up taking DT Chris Jones.  with the 4th rounder, KC took OG Parker Ehinger, who they ended up trading to the Cowboys for practice squad CB, Charvarious Ward, who has started for KC the last 3 years.  But more important was that having missed out on Lynch, KC was still in the QB market in 2017, and of course moved up from 27 to 10 in the trade with the Bills and drafted Mahomes.  that 27th overall ended up being Tre White and the next season, the Bills drafted Josh Allen. 

 

How different it all might have been for alot of teams and players....

 

 

 

My immediate reaction: Elway is an f-ing moron. But I already knew that.

[Coach Tuesday]

7 hours ago, Zerovoltz said:

 

For those interested -

 

Denver is a great case study on how teams can ruin a draft with moves and decisions far off from draft day itself.

 

coming off the 2017 Season, Denver had just gone 5-11 with 11 Starts from Siemien, and a few from Oswieler and a couple from Lynch.  Lynch as many will recall, had been drafted by the Broncos late in round 1 of the 2016 NFL Draft.  It is a confirmed fact that both Jerry Jones of the Cowboys and Andy Ried of the Chiefs also wanted Lynch.  

 

Going into that draft Dallas had no.4 overall, that they used on Ezekial Elliot, and had picks 34 (rd 2) and 67 (rd 3)  

KC had pick 28 (rd 1) pick 59 (rd 2) and didn't have a 3rd round choice...which is VERY important, and I'll get to it in a moment.

Denver had pick 31 (rd 1) 63 (rd2) and 94 (rd 3)

 

As the draft progressed toward the later part of round 1, it was known by the Broncos, Chiefs and Cowboys that all 3 were looking to draft Lynch.  When Seattle and Pick 26 came up, they were willing to deal out and started taking calls.  Denver ultimately traded 31 and 94 to move up to 26 and take Paxton Lynch.  Kansas City only would have needed to move up 2 spots from 28 to 26 but did not have a third round selection to beat Denvers offer.  KC did have a 4th at 126, but clearly 31 and 94 are better than 28 and 126.  The Cowboys also couldn't beat Denvers offer....and ended up taking Dak Prescott later on.

 

The next domino to fall for Denver was the rift this caused between Gary Kubiak and John Elway.  Kubiak who was the head coach, did not want Paxton Lynch...as it turns out, he wanted Prescott.  It should be noted that Prescott missed a flight to Denver for a pre draft interview with Elway.  Kubiak would go on and coach the Broncos in 2016, with Trevor Simien, not Lynch, as his QB.  Lynch couldn't beat out Simien, a rookie 7th rounder.  Kubiak "retired" after the 2016 season.

 

Elway hired Vance Joseph to be the new HC in 2017.  Lynch, could not beat out Simien still, and Brock Oswieler was also back at this point.  The Broncos went 5-11 and it was clear at this piont that Lynch was a bust but......Joseph was only 1 year into his contract and Denver still had alot of the peices on defense that won them super bowl 50.  During the offseason, Elway considered a coaching change and new direction, but decided to retain the staff and announce publicly that the staff would return but must win to earn another season. It was a public ultimatum.   At this point they were  NOT drafting a QB.  It is unusual a team with a lame duck coach, to draft a QB...the coach doesn't have the luxury of time to develop that QB.  Denver then signed Case Keenum, further cementing the idea they weren't in the QB market heading into the 2018 Draft.....and Lynch was still on the roster even though at this point it was known he was a bust.  

 

When draft day came, Denver, I believe may have had a deal in place to move out of 5 with Buffalo...but when the Browns surprised everyone at pick 4 and took CB Denzel Ward, Denver stayed at 5 and took Bradley Chubb, DE, North Carolina State.  He's been OK...and hurt quite a bit.  Josh Allen was sitting there, at 5, and couldhave been had for NOTHING, if Denver was in the market.  It was pretty well known Elway really thought highly of Allen but since he had a coach, who had to win now, and was still stung by the Lynch bust, Elway passed.

 

ultimately, Denver would only go 6-10, with poor QB play, Joseph was fired after the year anyhow, Case Keenum proved to not be the answer and Denver went into the 2019 offseason NO BETTER OFF than they had been the year before....and had Josh Allen in their lap.  They would hire Vic Fangio, and trade for a washed up Joe Flacco heading into 2019.

 

...and if you are a Bills fan...that pretty much sums it up....and you can stop reading here if you want...but...remember how I said that missing 3rd round pick in 2016 was very important?  Keep reading if you want to learn more about that....not having that pick set up not just the Broncos and Lynch and those dominoes...but had a profound impact on the Chiefs future as well.

 

Just a few days before that 2016 Draft, KC had to forfiet their 3rd round pick (no 91 overall) due to tampering with Jeremy Maclin who KC ended up signing as a FA.  When it came time to make the move up from 28 to 26, KC didn't have the ammo to beat the Broncos.  Denver got pick 26 for 31 and 94.  KC would have been able to offer 28 and 91 for that pick if Roger Goodell hadn't taken it away for tampering.  

 

Having lost out in the Paxton Lynch derby, KC ended up trading out of pick 28, moving back with the 49ers and 

 Kansas City traded its first-round selection (28th) and seventh-round selection (249th) to San Francisco in exchange for San Francisco's second-, fourth-, and sixth-round selections (37th, 105th, and 178th).  With pick 37 KC would end up taking DT Chris Jones.  with the 4th rounder, KC took OG Parker Ehinger, who they ended up trading to the Cowboys for practice squad CB, Charvarious Ward, who has started for KC the last 3 years.  But more important was that having missed out on Lynch, KC was still in the QB market in 2017, and of course moved up from 27 to 10 in the trade with the Bills and drafted Mahomes.  that 27th overall ended up being Tre White and the next season, the Bills drafted Josh Allen. 

 

How different it all might have been for alot of teams and players....

 

 

 

 

[SectionC3]

17 hours ago, djp14150 said:

 

but Buffalo passed on Mahomes

 

people in glass houses…..

And I prefer who we have.  Give me Tre white and Josh Allen all day long. Frankly I’d take Allen over Mahomes standing alone.  So I’m cool with how we ended up. 

Edited January 2, 2022 by SectionC3

[78thealltimegreat]

17 hours ago, BillsPride12 said:

The Colts still had Luck though at the time, that's the only team on the list that I can't fault them for not taking Josh.  Was just having the discussion with a friend at the gym today about how in the world did Elway miss on drafting Allen to the Broncos.  

The thing about Elway is he went to Josh’s bowl game too guy just has a tin ear for qb talent see Paxton Lynch and Drew Lock 

[bigduke6]

they all may regret it a tiny bit,  but there are so many moving parts to every NFL team,  theres absolutely no guarantee Josh becomes what he has at another franchise.   coaching,  scheme,  health,  etc, etc.   i believe Josh would have worked his butt off anywhere,   gotten better,  but theres more to it than just the player.    these guys are all guessing when it comes to drafting.    so many busts,  so many late round wonders punching above their weight.     

 

as much as these pro scouts/analysts/etc think they know,  they really dont.

 

all that being said,  im more than pleased that we have Josh,  and things have worked out for us.

[Mr. WEO]

18 hours ago, NewEra said:

I agree with you, but he’s also not just an all pro guard. He’s likely going to be an all time guard.  

 

Colts fortunes will never turn on a guard.

[Mr. K]

Who doesn't regret missing on Brady, Rodgers, Lamar to an extent? You could use this for every good player who is drafted outside of the top 10 - first 2 rounds. How'd we miss on this guy or that guy? Because there is a multitude of variables that contribute to the success or failure of an individuals in their professional careers. And some dumb luck too.

Edited January 2, 2022 by Mr. K

[NewEra]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Colts fortunes will never turn on a guard.

Not sure what that has to do with my comment, but do you.

[Albany,n.y.]

11 hours ago, PolishPrince said:

I dont get this,  and I see a lot of media pundits talk about "Bills example of how to groom a young QB." Maybe I am miss-remembering but our staff DID throw him to the wolves halfway through his first game of rookie season against a top defense, and without any solid vets on the team helping him out (until later in season when he got injured).... AFTER he took QB3 reps all training camp. Our offense was the most unskilled awful group I have watched even compared to all of the drought years. Yes Beane went out and got some FA budget WR's and O-Line (outside of Morse not being budget). But thats about it. We still complain about our Oline, and we havent spent high draft picks to help Josh out like the Bengals have. 

 

From what I remember from Josh's rookie season the Bills did about everything they could have TO bungle Josh's development.

I remember fans going crazy because the Bills had to start Josh after Peterman failed on opening day & until Anderson signed, they had no veteran backup.  A lot of Bills fans were up in arms that the Bills didn't have a veteran mentor for Josh the 1st half of his rookie year.  

[Greatdane21]

How were they to know that the space capsule that landed on the Allen farm back in 1998 would contain such a humble and talented individual. 
think of how foolish the pac ten coaches must feel having him right under their noses and not even make an offer. The Buffalo 🦬 community has been extremely lucky 🍀 to have gotten this new asset to the community.

win or lose Buffalo has already won 🥇.

[TH3]

12 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said:

You have to ask how many other teams would have nurtured Allen like the Bills did? I think most would have tossed him out there to sink or swim. He would have lived down to the draft guru takes. Players are more than talent. They are the sum of their coaching too.

Didn’t the Bills pretty toss him out to sink or swim at the end of the day anyway?

 

well….at the end of that ravens game?

Edited January 2, 2022 by TH3

[Albany,n.y.]

7 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Huh?  This makes no sense.  The Bills did exactly what you say others teams would do and screw up their QB.  Allen took over for Peterman in the first game of his rookie season.  And then he started week 2.  He was the starter until he injured his elbow.  Then they fired his first OC at the end of the season.    

Daboll has always been Josh's OC.  They changed QB coaches after Josh was a rookie because Baltimore offered Culley a promotion and he left voluntarily with an assistant head title in Baltimore-a title that makes it very difficult for a team to keep a coach from moving on.  

 

Different Reply:  

The one part missing from Z's story is what effect did missing out on Cousins have on Elway's panic move to sign Keenum?  

Edited January 2, 2022 by Albany,n.y.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

 

41 minutes ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Daboll has always been Josh's OC.  They changed QB coaches after Josh was a rookie because Baltimore offered Culley a promotion and he left voluntarily with an assistant head title in Baltimore-a title that makes it very difficult for a team to keep a coach from moving on.  

 

Different Reply:  

The one part missing from Z's story is what effect did missing out on Cousins have on Elway's panic move to sign Keenum?  

You are correct. Dennison was fired after 2017 and Daboll was hired for 2018 season