Iron John

[Keuka]

I just finished this book and I thought it was pretty interesting. The author uses the myth of Iron John to show how modern life has messed up the way boys become men in our society. I read a lot of off topic post that relate to bad parenting and I think this theory provides some insight into many of the problems in the world today.

 

I think football is one way many men try to get in touch with the "wildman" within. I guess the Hulkster's retirement means one more "wildman" will pass into history (sorry Navybills).

 

If you aren't into heavy reading you might want to get the book on tape from the library.

 

Any other TBD people want to add a review?

[Tolstoy]

I haven't read the book, but it sounds interesting (who is the author?).

 

I have often thought that traditional "male" virtues (e.g. strength, courage, virility) are increasingly downplayed in our culture, and "female" virtues (e.g. sensitivity, gentleness, compassion) are increasingly glorified. Christianity is partly guilty here (think of images of the meek, twiggish, celibate saint being abused by persecutors without lifting a finger to defend himself, all while shedding tears not for himself, but for his tormentors).

 

Now, mind you, some of these latter qualities are good to have, but (quite frankly) they are not what "being a man" is all about. I am convinced that showing young boys what being a man is about involves letting them feel the strength and courage that lies dormant in their blood. The fire in their belly.

[envirojeff]

I just finished this book and I thought it was pretty interesting. The author uses the myth of Iron John to show how modern life has messed up the way boys become men in our society. I read a lot of off topic post that relate to bad parenting and I think this theory provides some insight into many of the problems in the world today.

 

I think football is one way many men try to get in touch with the "wildman" within. I guess the Hulkster's retirement means one more "wildman" will pass into history (sorry Navybills).

 

If you aren't into heavy reading you might want to get the book on tape from the library.

 

Any other TBD people want to add a review?

326448[/snapback]

Bill Murry to Andie MacDowell in Groundhog Day - "What a complete waste of time!"

 

Jeff

[Keuka]

So you read the book and you thought it was a waste of time or you wanted to add a qoute from a pretty funny comedy?

Bill Murry to Andie MacDowell in Groundhog Day - "What a complete waste of time!" 

 

Jeff

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[envirojeff]

So you read the book and you thought it was a waste of time or you wanted to add a qoute from a pretty funny comedy?

326460[/snapback]

Yes

 

Jeff

[Fan in San Diego]

Make two years in the Armed services mandatory (18 to 20) and maybe we will help men become men in America.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Make two years in the Armed services mandatory (18 to 20) and maybe we will help men become men in America.

326476[/snapback]

 

I hear ya. Every man should know how to wield a weapon in righteous anger.

 

 

Seriously, the problem with this country is rooted in the 60s feminist movement. They sought to sociologically castrate American men so that their own selfish agendas could be pushed forward.

[Beerball]

Iron John? Hey! That's my wife's nickname for me.

[dib]

Iron John?  Hey!    That's my wife's nickname for me.

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How odd. Me too.

[Tossy McSalad]

How odd.  Me too.

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Not me.

[Surfmeister]

I have read it and thought it was really good. Then I read "Sibling Society" by the same author. I enjoyed that and it is a valuable book to me because it answers a lot of questions I had on why kids are like they are today.

 

Robert Bly is overdue to put out a follow-up to Sibling Society.

[Mickey]

Make two years in the Armed services mandatory (18 to 20) and maybe we will help men become men in America.

326476[/snapback]

Yes, it worked well for Lee Harvey Oswald and Timothy McVeigh. I think the tail hook disaster was also a particularly instructive example of the military version of how to "be a man". I wouldn't blame the military for these black eyes anymore than I would give it blanket credit as a panacea worthy of being forced upon the unwilling.

 

Plenty of good men have never held a rifle and plenty of bad men collect them and vice versa.

[Mickey]

I hear ya. Every man should know how to wield a weapon in righteous anger.

 

 

Seriously, the problem with this country is rooted in the 60s feminist movement. They sought to sociologically castrate American men so that their own selfish agendas could be pushed forward.

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...and what was the problem with this country before the '60's or did we have none?

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

...and what was the problem with this country before the '60's or did we have none?

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Well, let's see, crime was lower, divorce was lower, the economy was healthier....the men who ran this country didn't operate out of fear of low poll numbers propagated by an idiotized media....

 

Sounds a hell of a lot better to me.

[Spiderweb]

Yes, it worked well for Lee Harvey Oswald and Timothy McVeigh.  I think the tail hook disaster was also a particularly instructive example of the military version of how to "be a man".  I wouldn't blame the military for these black eyes anymore than I would give it blanket credit as a panacea worthy of being forced upon the unwilling.

 

Plenty of good men have never held a rifle and plenty of bad men collect them and vice versa.

326600[/snapback]

 

Hummm....

 

Basically being far more conservative fiscally, and a tad more liberal on social issues than most around here, I'd add that if mandatory service of some sort is cost prohibitive then some sort of random (completely random, rich, poor, etc) draft might be appropriate. There is a price than has to be paid to protect this country and personally I think they took the "peace time dividend" a bit too far under Clinton. We see clearly today that our troop strength is not adequate. Problem would be balancing increased troop strength with an already outrageous Federal deficit.

 

Bottom line, It's not about making "good" men out of slugs (although that happens on occasion), it's about service to one's country. This is the responsibility of all citizens.

[Mickey]

Well, let's see, crime was lower, divorce was lower, the economy was healthier....the men who ran this country didn't operate out of fear of low poll numbers propagated by  an idiotized media....

 

Sounds a hell of a lot better to me.

326686[/snapback]

pay was lower, racism higher, Jim Crow, Polio, cancer survival = not many, fewer owned homes, fewer owned stocks, people who hate eachother staying married, pollution galore, zero opportunities for women, segregation, entertainment no more interesting than Ozzie and Harriet, goal posts in the endzone, no seat belts, no air bags, politicians and policies made and broken in back rooms rather than (gasp) by the people expressed by votes in election years and in polls in-between, etc, etc, etc, etc.

 

Sounds pretty crappy to me. Your welcome to go back and enjoy a meal at an all white lunch counter and dump some benzene in the village drinking well if that is what floats your boat.

[Mickey]

Hummm....

 

Basically being far more conservative fiscally, and a tad more liberal on social issues than most around here, I'd add that if mandatory service of some sort is cost prohibitive then some sort of random (completely random, rich, poor, etc) draft might be appropriate. There is a price than has to be paid to protect this country and personally I think they took the "peace time dividend" a bit too far under Clinton. We see clearly today that our troop strength is not adequate. Problem would be balancing increased troop strength with an already outrageous Federal deficit.

 

Bottom line, It's not about making "good" men out of slugs (although that happens on occasion), it's about service to one's country. This is the responsibility of all citizens.

326711[/snapback]

 

To some extent, I think a draft would be great. A lot more people would think a lot longer and harder about military adventures and the politicians who endorse them if their butts were on the line.

 

I'm not sure troop strength is the problem. If we had 3 times the number of active duty military personnel on 9/11, would that have stopped a handful of creative lunatics with box cutters? Military service in Israel is mandatory for everyone. Despite the numbers, they are unable to stop terrorist attacks. Thinking that if you throw enough soldiers at a security problem it will go away is about as valid as thinking that you can solve social problems simply by throwing enough money at them. It seems like it should be true but it just isn't .

[stuckincincy]

Things go in cycles.

 

A book titled "Boy Training" published in 1911 (Associated Press, 194 E. 28th Street, New York) by the International Committee of Young Men's Christian Associations (YMCA), edited by J.L. Alexander, Secretary, Boy Scouts of America with introduction by Ernest Thompson Seton, founder and Chief Scout of the BSA, is an excellent treatise and guide about raising young men.

 

Times were tough in 1911 - likely much moreso than today.

[Fan in San Diego]

Yes, it worked well for Lee Harvey Oswald and Timothy McVeigh.  I think the tail hook disaster was also a particularly instructive example of the military version of how to "be a man".  I wouldn't blame the military for these black eyes anymore than I would give it blanket credit as a panacea worthy of being forced upon the unwilling.

 

Plenty of good men have never held a rifle and plenty of bad men collect them and vice versa.

326600[/snapback]

 

So your point is what?

[Mickey]

So your point is what?

326930[/snapback]

The point was pretty simple, your post suggested that requiring military service would cure the problem identified earlier in the thread of raising boys to be responsible men. I disagreed taking the position, obvious in the response, that military service is not a cure all for that problem. Hence my use of the word "panacea", ie, a hypothetical cure for all ills. I didn't think I was being controversial since there doesn't seem to be any ground well of support for the idea of forced service in the military from any political quarter.