With so many "busts", is it possible they're not being correctly coached?

[Gisele]

Keep hearing that Beane hasn't really drafted well because our offensive/defensive line is so bad.  Also keep hearing that we have over spent on marginal free agents because they under perform here.  Is it possible that once these athletes get hear they're have no direction?  I know that not all 280lb men are not the same, but lot's of ours end up looking pretty darn lazy.  BTW, Daryl Williams had a few plays Monday that should get him sent home.  Low effort can not be tolerated.  

 

 

[NewEra]

Absolutely.  

 

Bobby J, you are, the weakest link

[BuffaloRebound]

I think the defense is pretty much how they want it.  They can live with getting gashed on ground occasionally. Defense 95% of time gives team chance to win game.  

Offense is different story.  I’d love to hear the conversations Beane, McDermott, and Daboll have about what happened with Wyatt Teller.  Epic Fail there.  

[Gisele]

21 minutes ago, Gisele said:

Keep hearing that Beane hasn't really drafted well because our offensive/defensive line is so bad.  Also keep hearing that we have over spent on marginal free agents because they under perform here.  Is it possible that once these athletes get hear they're have no direction?  I know that not all 280lb men are not the same, but lot's of ours end up looking pretty darn lazy.  BTW, Daryl Williams had a few plays Monday that should get him sent home.  Low effort can not be tolerated.  

 

 

I shouldn't write before coffee.  

[BobChalmers]

I also have my doubts about the current OL coaching, though I also doubt anyone will argue Bobby Johnson isn't a huge improvement over Juan "Vlad DuCasse has incriminating pictures of me" Castillo.   I won't blame any Bills fans for having blocked (pun intended) Castillo's tenure out of your memory.

 

Two things about the offensive "talent" though.  

 

1. Josh Allen is the ONLY 1st round pick on the offense.  You can sort of call former 5th round pick Stephon Diggs a "1st rounder" based on the trade to get him, but there's no one else.  For all the talk about the great Bills skill players, they've all either been mediocre, or for the FA WRs (Diggs, Beasley, John Brown) they've had their best career years playing with Allen.  I guess Sanders would be an exception, but honestly he's pretty old/past his prime, and just the eyeball test with him this year doesn't impress.  Point is, they haven't actually emphasized getting help for Josh.

 

Allen (1st round 7th overall)

Singletary (3rd)

Moss (3rd)

Diggs (5th)

Sanders (3rd)

Beasley (UDFA)

Knox (3rd)

Dawkins (2nd 63rd overall)

Morse (2nd 49th overall)

Williams (4th)

Feliciano (4th)

Brown (3rd)

 

Cody Ford (2nd 38th overall) - that's right - the highest drafted pick on the Bills offense other than Allen isn't a starter and is looking like a massive bust

 

Sadly, the best OL this front office ever brought in was 5th rounder Wyatt Teller - and they traded him away for peanuts - Castillo was the OL coach then, I believe??

 

Point being, yeah, we can worry about some mix of bad coaching or poor scouting, but the reality is that the team of Brandon Beane and Sean McDermott have simply not invested in the offense.  For comparison, here's the first round talent on the Defense:

 

Tre' White (27th overall)

Rousseau (30th overall)

Oliver (9th overall)

Star (14th overall)

Edmunds (16th overall)

Hughes (31st overall) - steal by the Bills before team McBeane arrived - we traded a 3rd to Indy for their "bust"

 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by BobChalmers

[Billl]

10 minutes ago, BobChalmers said:

I also have my doubts about the current OL coaching, though I also doubt anyone will argue Bobby Johnson isn't a huge improvement over Juan "Vlad DuCasse has incriminating pictures of me" Castillo.   I won't blame any Bills fans for having blocked (pun intended) Castillo's tenure out of your memory.

 

Two things about the offensive "talent" though.  

 

1. Josh Allen is the ONLY 1st round pick on the offense.  You can sort of call former 5th round pick Stephon Diggs a "1st rounder" based on the trade to get him, but there's no one else.  For all the talk about the great Bills skill players, they've all either been mediocre, or for the FA WRs (Diggs, Beasley, John Brown) they've had their best career years playing with Allen.  I guess Sanders would be an exception, but honestly he's pretty old/past his prime, and just the eyeball test with him this year doesn't impress.  Point is, they haven't actually emphasized getting help for Josh.

 

Allen (1st round 7th overall)

Singletary (3rd)

Moss (3rd)

Diggs (5th)

Sanders (3rd)

Beasley (UDFA)

Knox (3rd)

Dawkins (2nd 63rd overall)

Morse (2nd 49th overall)

Williams (4th)

Feliciano (4th)

Brown (3rd)

 

Cody Ford (2nd 38th overall) - that's right - the highest drafted pick on the Bills offense other than Allen isn't a starter and is looking like a massive bust

 

Sadly, the best OL this front office ever brought in was 5th rounder Wyatt Teller - and they traded him away for peanuts - Castillo was the OL coach then, I believe??

 

Point being, yeah, we can worry about some mix of bad coaching or poor scouting, but the reality is that the team of Brandon Beane and Sean McDermott have simply not invested in the offense.  For comparison, here's the first round talent on the Defense:

 

Tre' White (27th overall)

Rousseau (30th overall)

Oliver (9th overall)

Star (14th overall)

Edmunds (16th overall)

Hughes (31st overall) - steal by the Bills before team McBeane arrived - we traded a 3rd to Indy for their "bust"

 

 

You’re really conflating other teams’ investments with Beane’s investments.  Allen cost (essentially) the 21st pick, Corey Glenn, and 2 second round picks.  Diggs cost a 1st, 4th, 5th, and 6th round pick plus his contract.  That first was used for Justin Jefferson IIRC.

 

If you call Diggs a 5th round investment, then you should call Trubisky the second overall pick.

[BobChalmers]

10 minutes ago, Billl said:

If you call Diggs a 5th round investment, then you should call Trubisky the second overall pick.

 

I was only talking starters so Trubisky's kind of irrelevant (and God help us, stays that way!!) .  He sure as heck doesn't qualify as "help for Josh".

 

And yeah - I specifically called out Diggs - we can call him a first - I'm OK with that.

 

 

As for other team's investments - it's true some players can develop into better overall players than their draft status, for sure - but who other than Diggs should we view as having risen to a 1st round "value"?  Beasley??   Morse??

Edited December 8, 2021 by BobChalmers

[BobChalmers]

2 hours ago, BuffaloRebound said:

 I’d love to hear the conversations Beane, McDermott, and Daboll have about what happened with Wyatt Teller.  Epic Fail there.  

 

Add in Cody Ford and one really has to worry that they suck at evaluating (and/or coaching) interior OL talent  - not coincidentally the biggest issue with the offense and the real reason they looked bad in the AFC Championship, and against Houston the year before, and where they most struggled against Indy in the playoffs. 

 

Sure a better pass rush of their own would have been nice against KC, but that was clearly problem number two behind "Josh is repeatedly running for his life against interior pressure".    Spending their first two picks on DE's this year was somewhere between a cocky luxury and idiotic.  They needed help at OG and did NOTHING about it.  They got lucky that Brown could play almost right away so they could move Williams inside - as we've seen, when they can't do that they are straight up helpless on their interior OL.

Edited December 8, 2021 by BobChalmers

[Process]

O line coach sucks. 

 

So does McDermott insisting on on using an 11 man d line rotation.

[Brand J]

Not only the whiffs on Ford and Teller (and even Spain if you want to add him to that group), but Beane is on record saying they would’ve traded out of this year’s 2nd round pick if Basham wasn’t there (and even wanted to trade UP for him!)

Meanwhile Creed Humphrey goes to KC after getting selected later in the round (next pick?) and proceeds to become the highest rated center in the league… as a rookie. Yeah, their IOL evaluations are trash.

[BuffaloRebound]

I think it’s offensive philosophy more than anything else.  The jettisoning of Teller after 1 season is the epitome of that.  McDermott, Daboll or whoever makes the decisions on the offensive side of the ball sees no value in a power run game.  They get rid of every Offensive Linemen whose strength is in the run game or they look so bad because it’s a pass only offense, draft RB’s more for their pass catching skills, and don’t value Tight Ends who can block and move the chains.  

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, BobChalmers said:

I also have my doubts about the current OL coaching, though I also doubt anyone will argue Bobby Johnson isn't a huge improvement over Juan "Vlad DuCasse has incriminating pictures of me" Castillo.   I won't blame any Bills fans for having blocked (pun intended) Castillo's tenure out of your memory.

 

Two things about the offensive "talent" though.  

 

1. Josh Allen is the ONLY 1st round pick on the offense.  You can sort of call former 5th round pick Stephon Diggs a "1st rounder" based on the trade to get him, but there's no one else.  For all the talk about the great Bills skill players, they've all either been mediocre, or for the FA WRs (Diggs, Beasley, John Brown) they've had their best career years playing with Allen.  I guess Sanders would be an exception, but honestly he's pretty old/past his prime, and just the eyeball test with him this year doesn't impress.  Point is, they haven't actually emphasized getting help for Josh.

 

Allen (1st round 7th overall)

Singletary (3rd)

Moss (3rd)

Diggs (5th)

Sanders (3rd)

Beasley (UDFA)

Knox (3rd)

Dawkins (2nd 63rd overall)

Morse (2nd 49th overall)

Williams (4th)

Feliciano (4th)

Brown (3rd)

 

Cody Ford (2nd 38th overall) - that's right - the highest drafted pick on the Bills offense other than Allen isn't a starter and is looking like a massive bust

 

Sadly, the best OL this front office ever brought in was 5th rounder Wyatt Teller - and they traded him away for peanuts - Castillo was the OL coach then, I believe??

 

Point being, yeah, we can worry about some mix of bad coaching or poor scouting, but the reality is that the team of Brandon Beane and Sean McDermott have simply not invested in the offense.  For comparison, here's the first round talent on the Defense:

 

Tre' White (27th overall)

Rousseau (30th overall)

Oliver (9th overall)

Star (14th overall)

Edmunds (16th overall)

Hughes (31st overall) - steal by the Bills before team McBeane arrived - we traded a 3rd to Indy for their "bust"

 

 

Awesome post Bob.  👍🏻 

 

Hopefully we can change that this offseason.  If not, theres a good chance he doesn’t make it through the year because he’ll have to l, again, be counted on to do too much. We MUST take some of the weight off of his shoulders along the OL and with more playmakers 

[Governor]

It’s a team full of tweeners. That’s what they draft. It didn’t work. We’re now softer than KC and Indy. 
 

I never in a million years thought that could happen in Buffalo.

[Governor]

1 hour ago, JayBaller10 said:

Not only the whiffs on Ford and Teller (and even Spain if you want to add him to that group), but Beane is on record saying they would’ve traded out of this year’s 2nd round pick if Basham wasn’t there (and even wanted to trade UP for him!)

Meanwhile Creed Humphrey goes to KC after getting selected later in the round (next pick?) and proceeds to become the highest rated center in the league… as a rookie. Yeah, their IOL evaluations are trash.

Beane lies. He’s been missing on their preferred draft targets all along.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

10 hours ago, BobChalmers said:

I also have my doubts about the current OL coaching, though I also doubt anyone will argue Bobby Johnson isn't a huge improvement over Juan "Vlad DuCasse has incriminating pictures of me" Castillo.   I won't blame any Bills fans for having blocked (pun intended) Castillo's tenure out of your memory.

 

Two things about the offensive "talent" though.  

 

1. Josh Allen is the ONLY 1st round pick on the offense.  You can sort of call former 5th round pick Stephon Diggs a "1st rounder" based on the trade to get him, but there's no one else.  For all the talk about the great Bills skill players, they've all either been mediocre, or for the FA WRs (Diggs, Beasley, John Brown) they've had their best career years playing with Allen.  I guess Sanders would be an exception, but honestly he's pretty old/past his prime, and just the eyeball test with him this year doesn't impress.  Point is, they haven't actually emphasized getting help for Josh.

 

Allen (1st round 7th overall)

Singletary (3rd)

Moss (3rd)

Diggs (5th)

Sanders (3rd)

Beasley (UDFA)

Knox (3rd)

Dawkins (2nd 63rd overall)

Morse (2nd 49th overall)

Williams (4th)

Feliciano (4th)

Brown (3rd)

 

Cody Ford (2nd 38th overall) - that's right - the highest drafted pick on the Bills offense other than Allen isn't a starter and is looking like a massive bust

 

Sadly, the best OL this front office ever brought in was 5th rounder Wyatt Teller - and they traded him away for peanuts - Castillo was the OL coach then, I believe??

 

Point being, yeah, we can worry about some mix of bad coaching or poor scouting, but the reality is that the team of Brandon Beane and Sean McDermott have simply not invested in the offense.  For comparison, here's the first round talent on the Defense:

 

Tre' White (27th overall)

Rousseau (30th overall)

Oliver (9th overall)

Star (14th overall)

Edmunds (16th overall)

Hughes (31st overall) - steal by the Bills before team McBeane arrived - we traded a 3rd to Indy for their "bust"

 

 

 

Great post.  Thank you for putting this up. 

Vernon Butler was also a 1st round pick (30th overall in 2016)

 

So our offense has 1 (maybe 2, if you count Diggs) first-round picks

Our defense has 7 first-round picks

 

LOL at the "Vlad Ducasse has incriminating pictures of me" I used that train of thought myself in those days.

 

I will say though, that there may be something to the "coaching" or "play design" notion as well. 

 

Other teams seem to get satisfactory play out of backup-caliber players on OL.  NE was notorious for this for years.  They would put a bunch of rookies or JAGs out there with Solder on one end and Vollmer on the other and it was like Brady had the freakin' Steel Curtain in front of him.

 

Singletary was drafted #74 in the 3rd.  Damien Harris was drafted #87 in the 3rd that same year.  Clearly the Pats are getting a lot more out of him this year.

Yet, his first two years and particularly his rookie season, you might have looked at the numbers and said for sure, he's the better back.

 

There has to be something with the way these guys are being coached and schemed (IMO)

[Nextmanup]

10 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Not only the whiffs on Ford and Teller (and even Spain if you want to add him to that group), but Beane is on record saying they would’ve traded out of this year’s 2nd round pick if Basham wasn’t there (and even wanted to trade UP for him!)

Meanwhile Creed Humphrey goes to KC after getting selected later in the round (next pick?) and proceeds to become the highest rated center in the league… as a rookie. Yeah, their IOL evaluations are trash.

Trading up is such a bad look.  I can't believe these guys like to do it as much as they do.

 

 

[Nelius]

Coached, developed, how ever you want to put it I think the answer is unfortunately yes, particularly for the d-line and RB's. D-line has shown some flashes but there have just been too many 1-2 round picks for somebody to not be taking over by now. There are currently 10 players with at least 10 sacks this year, and nobody on Buffalo is anywhere close. And it's not because everybody's eating - this team is 27th in total sacks. How is that not a failure at some level considering how many picks we've used in the top of the draft recently, in addition to FA's we've brought in? 

 

Same can be said for RB for obvious reasons. Singletary and Moss weren't reaches. 

[Scott7975]

We either have some of the dumbest linemen in the NFL or the coaches are bad.  Most of the lines problems are mental errors.  At least the ones I see in reviews.

[LABILLBACKER]

16 hours ago, Gisele said:

Keep hearing that Beane hasn't really drafted well because our offensive/defensive line is so bad.  Also keep hearing that we have over spent on marginal free agents because they under perform here.  Is it possible that once these athletes get hear they're have no direction?  I know that not all 280lb men are not the same, but lot's of ours end up looking pretty darn lazy.  BTW, Daryl Williams had a few plays Monday that should get him sent home.  Low effort can not be tolerated.  

 

 

Rewatched the NE game tonight.  Along with confirming how pathetic Edmunds is,  Daryl is also becoming worthless. He got beat constantly. 

[GoBills808]

 

14 hours ago, BobChalmers said:

I also have my doubts about the current OL coaching, though I also doubt anyone will argue Bobby Johnson isn't a huge improvement over Juan "Vlad DuCasse has incriminating pictures of me" Castillo.   I won't blame any Bills fans for having blocked (pun intended) Castillo's tenure out of your memory.

 

Two things about the offensive "talent" though.  

 

1. Josh Allen is the ONLY 1st round pick on the offense.  You can sort of call former 5th round pick Stephon Diggs a "1st rounder" based on the trade to get him, but there's no one else.  For all the talk about the great Bills skill players, they've all either been mediocre, or for the FA WRs (Diggs, Beasley, John Brown) they've had their best career years playing with Allen.  I guess Sanders would be an exception, but honestly he's pretty old/past his prime, and just the eyeball test with him this year doesn't impress.  Point is, they haven't actually emphasized getting help for Josh.

 

Allen (1st round 7th overall)

Singletary (3rd)

Moss (3rd)

Diggs (5th)

Sanders (3rd)

Beasley (UDFA)

Knox (3rd)

Dawkins (2nd 63rd overall)

Morse (2nd 49th overall)

Williams (4th)

Feliciano (4th)

Brown (3rd)

 

Cody Ford (2nd 38th overall) - that's right - the highest drafted pick on the Bills offense other than Allen isn't a starter and is looking like a massive bust

 

Sadly, the best OL this front office ever brought in was 5th rounder Wyatt Teller - and they traded him away for peanuts - Castillo was the OL coach then, I believe??

 

Point being, yeah, we can worry about some mix of bad coaching or poor scouting, but the reality is that the team of Brandon Beane and Sean McDermott have simply not invested in the offense.  For comparison, here's the first round talent on the Defense:

 

Tre' White (27th overall)

Rousseau (30th overall)

Oliver (9th overall)

Star (14th overall)

Edmunds (16th overall)

Hughes (31st overall) - steal by the Bills before team McBeane arrived - we traded a 3rd to Indy for their "bust"

 

 

Is having a lot of first round picks outside QB necessary for a good offense? In KC it’s only Edwards-Helaire that I can think of…can’t think of a single first round Packer on offense either. Bahktiari isn’t, Runyan isnt, Adams and Jones aren’t…