PFC Lynndie England pleads guilty

[RkFast]

You ain't saying!

 

It is really the double message that the US sends.

 

Instead of emphasizing the great things about our society...  What the world sees is Tide and Pepsi being hawked accross the globe while a Disney cruise ship pulls into the port of Venice blarring "It's a Small World."

 

It is nice to love a guy like Al Czervik (CaddyShack, Rodney Dangerfield) since he breaks down the stuffy elite... Yet, it is hard not to hate him when he acts like a horse's ass!

326162[/snapback]

 

Yeah....they see those TERRIBLE products being "hawked" and get pissed off...but the second they need a hand, they all demand to know where the soft drinks, clothes detergents and Mickey Mouse videos.....along with "whiskey sexy" are, dont they?

[Gene Frenkle]

if what they did was "torture", I'd like to see the people in the press who vilified these kids sent to Cuba or N. Korea, or Commie China or Iran or Syria or any other third-world sh!thole where they REALLY torture people.

 

Then I'd like to see those same press members accused of "spying". Let's give these limp-wristed liberal press members an idea of that TORTURE really is.

325913[/snapback]

Yes, instead of setting an civilized example as the greatest nation in the world, we should stoop to the level of third-world nations and condone the mistreatment of POWs. Conservatives are always talking about values and how the liberals are too soft, but when it comes to policing ourselves with our own rules, all they do is scream about patriotism and how the other country did it first.

 

It doesn't matter what Cuba or Commie China does. We supposed to be the civilized country, setting the example. As your parents probably told you countless times (apparently uneffectively), just because all the other kids jump off the bridge does NOT mean you should too!

[RuntheDamnBall]

Yeah....they see those TERRIBLE products being "hawked" and get pissed off...but the second they need a hand, they all demand to know where the soft drinks, clothes detergents and Mickey Mouse videos.....along with "whiskey sexy" are, dont they?

326491[/snapback]

Reliance on tired stereotypes, check.

Air of unbounded superiority, check.

Anger of the ruling right, check.

 

You're on a roll, man. How compassionate, how Christian. I can't wait till our whole nation is comprised entirely of guys like you.

[KD in CA]

Yes, instead of setting an civilized example as the greatest nation in the world, we should stoop to the level of third-world nations and condone the mistreatment of POWs.  Conservatives are always talking about values and how the liberals are too soft, but when it comes to policing ourselves with our own rules, all they do is scream about patriotism and how the other country did it first.

 

It doesn't matter what Cuba or Commie China does.  We supposed to be the civilized country, setting the example.  As your parents probably told you countless times (apparently uneffectively), just because all the other kids jump off the bridge does NOT mean you should too!

326854[/snapback]

 

No one is saying our guys are justified to act as Commie China does, just pointing out the hypocracy of the global over recation any time an American solider steps the least bit out of line. And of course, we can always count on our leftwing countrymen to join that chorus the very first time some isolated incident pops up.

 

The fact is that we do set that example and our guys don't act like North Koreans, even if some people chose to ignore that and focus on bashing the US no matter what.

[RuntheDamnBall]

No one is saying our guys are justified to act as Commie China does, just pointing out the hypocracy of the global over recation any time an American solider steps the least bit out of line.  And of course, we can always count on our leftwing countrymen to join that chorus the very first time some isolated incident pops up.

 

The fact is that we do set that example and our guys don't act like North Koreans, even if some people chose to ignore that and focus on bashing the US no matter what.

326874[/snapback]

Think on this analogy.

You have kids. You've raised them right. They usually do the right thing. When they don't, do you say, "that's OK, you're usually a good kid," or do you discipline them, do you tell them you expect better?

[KD in CA]

Think on this analogy.

You have kids.  You've raised them right.  They usually do the right thing.  When they don't, do you say, "that's OK, you're usually a good kid," or do you discipline them, do you tell them you expect better?

326880[/snapback]

 

Weak analogy.

 

I discipline the kids relative to their misdeed. I don't tell them they are the worst kids on the block for doing stuff that is one tenth as bad as the kids next door.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

No one is saying our guys are justified to act as Commie China does, just pointing out the hypocracy of the global over recation any time an American solider steps the least bit out of line.  And of course, we can always count on our leftwing countrymen to join that chorus the very first time some isolated incident pops up.

 

The fact is that we do set that example and our guys don't act like North Koreans, even if some people chose to ignore that and focus on bashing the US no matter what.

326874[/snapback]

 

Good to know someone gets it.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Weak analogy.

 

I discipline the kids relative to their misdeed.  I don't tell them they are the worst kids on the block for doing stuff that is one tenth as bad as the kids next door.

326895[/snapback]

I don't think anyone is equating what a small number of our troops did with what happens in North Korea regularly. If you're sensing that, I feel you're overreacting.

 

What I'm saying, is I expect the best of our troops, and on the whole they deliver. The ones that falter should be disciplined, and they are. At the same time we as citizens should question any systemic allowance or preference for torture, whether at Abu Ghraib, by shipping suspects to countries where torture is allowed, or otherwise.

 

I think that's as pro-American as one can get. I believe we have an important place in the world and we damage our position and credibility by condoning torture of any sort. Nobody is confusing us with the North Koreans. But we shouldn't give anyone any reason to, either.

[KD in CA]

I don't think anyone is equating what a small number of our troops did with what happens in North Korea regularly.  If you're sensing that, I feel you're overreacting.

 

What I'm saying, is I expect the best of our troops, and on the whole they deliver.  The ones that falter should be disciplined, and they are.  At the same time we as citizens should question any systemic allowance or preference for torture, whether at Abu Ghraib, by shipping suspects to countries where torture is allowed, or otherwise.

 

I think that's as pro-American as one can get.  I believe we have an important place in the world and we damage our position and credibility by condoning torture of any sort.  Nobody is confusing us with the North Koreans.  But we shouldn't give anyone any reason to, either.

326918[/snapback]

 

No argument there. Of course those soldiers who break the rules of engagement should be punished. I was very happy to see that the guy who killed two fellow soldiers in Qatar received the DP. My brother was in that camp.

 

And of course we shouldn't condone torture. But the point made earlier which I agree with is that we should remember how 'torture' has been defined by warfare in the past. Just because a hysterical NY Times Op-Ed writer who cares more about trying to make Bush look bad than with how the war in Iraq turns out calls it 'torture' doesn't necessarily make it so. And we don't do our country any favors in the international community by hanging our whole military out to dry every time a handful of soldiers gets out of line. That was my point.

[RkFast]

Reliance on tired stereotypes, check.

Air of unbounded superiority, check.

Anger of the ruling right, check.

 

You're on a roll, man.  How compassionate, how Christian.  I can't wait till our whole nation is comprised entirely of guys like you.

326870[/snapback]

 

Where is the stereotype? The "whiskey sexy" comment? An Iraqi man said that?

 

Where is the "unbound superiority"? You really care to argue that the U.S. is NOT relied upon around the globe for aid and assistance for virutally every kind of situation imaginable?

 

Where is the "anger"? My whole response was a retort to what 'Exiled' said, the point of which being is that the world should NOT BE "ANGRY" when 'hawked' American goods, considering they clamor for those very same goods they supposedely dont like having "pushed" on them.

 

And where does "compassion" and religion come into this? Are you saying that we should be "compassionate" about other's cultures and ways of living? Then lets look at it this way.....why is it wrong for the U.S. to "hawk" our goods overseas and according to so many "ruin" foreign cultures. But over HERE, we have to unabashedely and without complaint drive our German cars, fueled by gas sold to us by Russian oil companies and then go home to watch our Japanese TVs while wearing pajamas made in Malaysia?

 

A little fairness in this whole "pushing of cultures and products" debate should be instilled was my point. Really nothing else. If that makes me a bad guy according to you or the elite around this board, so be it.

[Alaska Darin]

I absolutely think she should be disciplined but the idea that she's likely to end up with more than a decade behind bars is abhorrent given what murdering pedophiles and others have been ending up with.

 

We shall see.

[RuntheDamnBall]

Where is the stereotype? The "whiskey sexy" comment? An Iraqi man said that?

 

Where is the "unbound superiority"? You really care to argue that the U.S. is NOT relied upon around the globe for aid and assistance for virutally every kind of situation imaginable?

 

Where is the "anger"? My whole response was a retort to what 'Exiled' said, the point of which being is that the world should NOT BE "ANGRY" when 'hawked' American goods, considering they clamor for those very same goods they supposedely dont like having "pushed" on them.

 

And where does "compassion" and religion come into this? Are you saying that we should be "compassionate" about other's cultures and ways of living? Then lets look at it this way.....why is it wrong for the U.S. to "hawk" our goods overseas and according to so many "ruin" foreign cultures. But over HERE, we have to unabashedely and without complaint drive our German cars, fueled by gas sold to us by Russian oil companies and then go home to watch our Japanese TVs while wearing pajamas made in Malaysia?

 

A little fairness in this whole "pushing of cultures and products" debate should be instilled was my point. Really nothing else. If that makes me a bad guy according to you or the elite around this board, so be it.

326995[/snapback]

This will go down as the first and only time I've been labeled part of the "elite around this board." Very funny ha-ha.

 

I can't begin to reply to this. I don't think you're a bad guy, I don't even know you. But you do seem to get pretty hot and bothered.

[RkFast]

This will go down as the first and only time I've been labeled part of the "elite around this board."  Very funny ha-ha.

 

I can't begin to reply to this.  I don't think you're a bad guy, I don't even know you.  But you do seem to get pretty hot and bothered.

327078[/snapback]

 

Well, I appreciate that.

 

This is a "hot button" issue for me, personally...the idea around the globe that the U.S. is Satan incarnate.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Well, I appreciate that.

 

This is a "hot button" issue for me, personally...the idea around the globe that the U.S. is Satan incarnate.

327081[/snapback]

 

I understand you RK?

 

There is no doubt that we are Satan incarnate to the world and it bothers me too.

 

But, we've made our bed... I am not saying we have to lay in it... What I am saying is that we have to reinvent ourselves, change our ways.

 

Just as a "brand" in business "goes bad"... We need to find a way to change the bad connotation and turn the brand name around!

 

Our core values is where we start. That means, the way Americans pray on Sunday, the way we resolve disputed elections peacefully... Etc...

 

??????????To turn it around, we are going to have to take some kind of hit economically... Prove our "honor" to the world??????????

[jimshiz]

What I am saying is that we have to reinvent ourselves, change our ways.

 

Just as a "brand" in business "goes bad"... We need to find a way to change the bad connotation and turn the brand name around!

327312[/snapback]

 

bull sh-- !!!

[Reuben Gant]

Well, I for one was very pissed off about Abu Ghuraib or however the hell you spell it. For one, we can't control what China, or anybody else does, but we can control what we do.

 

Secondly, these were not armed combatants that they were doing this to, most were people rounded up at checkpoints who they were trying to get humiliate and blackmail so they would turn into informants. The International Red Cross, in fact, has reported that 70 to 90 percent of the prisoners at Abu Ghraib have been imprisoned there by mistake, simply rounded up in dragnets.

 

 

Thirdly, anything that is more likely to get my brother, and now my neice shot, Pisses me off.

 

There is no excuse for it. (okay, now i've vented) (not directed at anybody in particular)

[Thurman's Helmet]

The difference is, when other countries do it, not only is it worse but its supported by the governments/leadership, when we do it it IS wrong and we take corrective action.

 

Yet we're STILL the bad guy.

[Reuben Gant]

The difference is, when other countries do it, not only is it worse but its supported by the governments/leadership, when we do it it IS wrong and we take corrective action.

 

Yet we're STILL the bad guy.

327370[/snapback]

Actually, there was a documentary on how the Arab media showed the hearings in Washington that was actually pretty good. Because there were hearings the world got to see how we handle it. The Arab world never sees anything like that.

 

In this incident we were the bad guys. but the world also got to see how we dealt with it somewhat openly. We put MP's in there to mine the place for intelligence, I happen to think that they were following orders.

[Alaska Darin]

We put MP's in there to mine the place for intelligence, I happen to think that they were following orders.

327376[/snapback]

Probably not. Most likely, they were bored.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Probably not.  Most likely, they were bored.

327381[/snapback]

 

Just to expand on that...these kind of actions are very common amongst troops on what's effectively garrison duty. That's not to excuse it, just to say that's it not unique...or even uniquely American. It, like most of the other BS the media complains about (friendly fire, that Italian who was mistakenly killed, shooting surrendering combattants, collateral damage), is simply the nature of war. There's really nothing that's happened in Iraq that wasn't predictable in nature, even if not in detail...