Eighty Years Ago Today....

[LeviF]

20 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

The US didn't.

Far, far more likely that the British did know, but there is no compelling evidence that anybody really knew, though they should have.

Embryonic intel performance, but ultimately, a Japanese suicide.

 

Considering what Churchill would later say about the attack, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the British knew and said nothing. Churchill would say that when he laid his head down on 12/07/41, deep in his bones he knew that the war was won.

[sherpa]

5 minutes ago, LeviF said:

 

Considering what Churchill would later say about the attack, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the British knew and said nothing. Churchill would say that when he laid his head down on 12/07/41, deep in his bones he knew that the war was won.

 

Check out Major Frederick Rutland, and how the British stashed him in 1941 when his espionage for the Japanese became apparent.

[Nextmanup]

23 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Could they (the carrier fleet) have been out looking for them?

 

I know it sounds out there... But, who would have known true intentions back then.  Brass keeps quiet, goes about business... I find it hard to believe maneuvers are just maneuvers. They are floating out there for a reason. Sadly the Japanese got through faster than you can say Damien Harris pops a 64 yard TD run...

 

...But they awoke a sleeping giant.

It's possible the US carriers were looking for the Japanese fleet, having already known about it. 

 

But the traditional "conspiracy theory" is that we knew about the fleet and allowed the attack to happen, but first got the carriers out of harms way so the attack wouldn't be so damaging.

 

I think, ultimately, we should have known they were there, but did not!  And it was just good old fashioned incompetence that allowed the attacks to occur.

 

Regarding the sleeping giant...most Americans incorrectly assume the Japanese thought they'd win the war with America in a single attack.  Far from the truth.

The Japanese were ONLY trying to cripple our Pacific fleet just long enough (6 months was the plan) for them to safely get to the oil producing parts of the Pacific basin (modern Malaysia and parts of Indonesia, mostly) and past American interests in the Philippines.

 

They were just just like Germany later in the war--running out of petroleum and they needed more.

 

They figured if they could remove the US from the war for a solid 6 months, they could get what they needed and establish supply lines from the oil to the Japanese main islands...and then eventually America would go away.

 

That's why the Japanese didn't bother to destroy the fuel dumps and oil reserves at Pearl.  They weren't a part of their relatively short term strategy.

 

Of course, had they destroyed those reserves, US ships would have returned to the continental US for refueling, which would definitely have hindered our post-Pearl-attack operations.  But the Japanese weren't interested in that as a target.

They wanted the carriers, because even in 1941, they knew that was the prize, not aging battleships and battle cruisers like the USS Arizona! 

 

It was a super ballsy, super gutsy, super gambling plan--that didn't really work.

 

In December of 1941, Japan had--by far--the most sophisticated carrier military operations in the world, and the Kido Butai did a lovely job at Pearl.  It could have been better, and they should have probably gone back for a 3rd and 4th wave of attacks, but you have to admire the attack as a tactical military operation.

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

3 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

It's possible the US carriers were looking for the Japanese fleet, having already known about it. 

 

But the traditional "conspiracy theory" is that we knew about the fleet and allowed the attack to happen, but first got the carriers out of harms way so the attack wouldn't be so damaging.

 

I think, ultimately, we should have known they were there, but did not!  And it was just good old fashioned incompetence that allowed the attacks to occur.

 

Regarding the sleeping giant...most Americans incorrectly assume the Japanese thought they'd win the war with America in a single attack.  Far from the truth.

The Japanese were ONLY trying to cripple our Pacific fleet just long enough (6 months was the plan) for them to safely get to the oil producing parts of the Pacific basin (modern Malaysia and parts of Indonesia, mostly) and past American interests in the Philippines.

 

They were just just like Germany later in the war--running out of petroleum and they needed more.

 

They figured if they could remove the US from the war for a solid 6 months, they could get what they needed and establish supply lines from the oil to the Japanese main islands...and then eventually America would go away.

 

That's why the Japanese didn't bother to destroy the fuel dumps and oil reserves at Pearl.  They weren't a part of their relatively short term strategy.

 

Of course, had they destroyed those reserves, US ships would have returned to the continental US for refueling, which would definitely have hindered our post-Pearl-attack operations.  But the Japanese weren't interested in that as a target.

They wanted the carriers, because even in 1941, they knew that was the prize, not aging battleships and battle cruisers like the USS Arizona! 

 

It was a super ballsy, super gutsy, super gambling plan--that didn't really work.

 

In December of 1941, Japan had--by far--the most sophisticated carrier military operations in the world, and the Kido Butai did a lovely job at Pearl.  It could have been better, and they should have probably gone back for a 3rd and 4th wave of attacks, but you have to admire the attack as a tactical military operation.

 

 

Watch this....Watch how the Carrier Fleet slips outta Pearl before battle Midway.

 

Boy... Luck on our side?

 Watch his previous 3 videos on Midway.  Japanese perspective... 

[Nextmanup]

By the time of Midway, roughly 6 months later, we had cracked the Japanese code and knew all about their attack plan at Midway!  That's why we were able to set a trap for them and that battle went horribly for the Japanese.

 

The Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu, and Soryu went to the bottom of the Pacific in just a few minutes! 

 

The Japanese never recovered from that; didn't have the industrial capacity to keep up a protracted arms war with the USA, and they knew that from the very beginning.

Just like Germany knew it had to knock out the USSR sooner, rather than later.

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

33 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

By the time of Midway, roughly 6 months later, we had cracked the Japanese code and knew all about their attack plan at Midway!  That's why we were able to set a trap for them and that battle went horribly for the Japanese.

 

The Kaga, Akagi, Hiryu, and Soryu went to the bottom of the Pacific in just a few minutes! 

 

The Japanese never recovered from that; didn't have the industrial capacity to keep up a protracted arms war with the USA, and they knew that from the very beginning.

Just like Germany knew it had to knock out the USSR sooner, rather than later.

 

 

They were eventually scuttled by their own torpedoes to take them to the bottom.

[Wacka]

The US was tracking theJapanese fleet  and then lost them. Remember, it was 80 years ago. Radar was experimental and satellites were still over 25-30 years away.

[sherpa]

The cracking the code thing is overrated. 

The US was only able to decipher a percentage of transmissions, and the Japanese did not include a number of details in what was deciphered.

The US knew where and when.

They did not have any idea of the position of Japanese "Kido Butai."

 

With inferior equipment and inferior tactics, it was pure serendipity that South Buffalo native and CAG Wade McClusky found the Japanese carrier fleet, resulting in the sinking of four Japanese carriers in ten minutes, and changing the course of the Pacific war.

 

[costrovs]

On 12/7/2021 at 4:36 PM, Tiberius said:

No, that’s what the Japanese military thought of us 

 

Ah, Ok. My mistake then, I took that the wrong way. Carry on. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

3 hours ago, sherpa said:

The cracking the code thing is overrated. 

The US was only able to decipher a percentage of transmissions, and the Japanese did not include a number of details in what was deciphered.

The US knew where and when.

They did not have any idea of the position of Japanese "Kido Butai."

 

With inferior equipment and inferior tactics, it was pure serendipity that South Buffalo native and CAG Wade McClusky found the Japanese carrier fleet, resulting in the sinking of four Japanese carriers in ten minutes, and changing the course of the Pacific war.

Didn't know he was from South BFLo! Nice!  He went NW thinking the other engagements may have slowed them (or he could have assumed they were ahead towards the SE and Midway... He chose wisely!) from where his rendezvous point was... Then happened onto the cruiser (think cruiser IIRC) that engaged the USS Nautilus submarine... That Japanese vessel was making +30 knots... McClusky knew they had to be going somewhere important!   Led him straight to Kido Butai. God Bless him!

[sherpa]

Ya. McClusky was a South Park High School guy.

It was the Japanese destroyer, Arashi he followed.

Nimitz said that McClusky's perseverance"

"decided the fate of our carrier task force and our forces at Midway."

 

I think there is a bronze statue of him in Buffalo.

 

In recognition of his heroic actions, the "McClusky Award" is given annually to the most outstanding strike fighter squadron in the US Navy, and it is a very big deal to receive that.