Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[wnyguy]

18 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Trump literally withheld them until the word got out on what he was doing. He would of held them until after the election and if he won maybe would of never given them up. He loves Putin 

 

 

Would have, WOULD HAVE !!!!

[Doc]

7 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

No, he just withheld it because he wanted to. He's Putin's friend 

With “enemies” like Joey giving Putin Ukraine and Nord Stream 2…

[John Adams]

34 minutes ago, Doc said:

Trump’s not in charge.  What he says has no bearing on anything. 
 

And Putin has been amassing troops for almost a year. The US should’ve been providing arms back then and before Putin had a chance to properly invade. They also should have said that Ukraine will not be part of NATO. It would’ve gone along way to possibly averting this crisis, if not helping them to be further along in it. 

 

You mean like the 620 million we already gave them this year? Not counting the 385M just committed? 

 

And as to NATO, we want countries to be worthy of NATO. That is a good thing. The Ukraine was not but why would NATO cut it off from rising to a level worthy of joining? And to be clear, that decision is not one that Russia gets to bully the world into. 

 

Imagine if Biden had lead the charge to pre-emptively deny Ukraine NATO membership because Putin demanded it. You would have been here saying how weak Biden is. Don't even try to deny it. 

 

You have no solutions. Only complaints. 

9 minutes ago, wnyguy said:

Would have, WOULD HAVE !!!!

 

Seriously. We all make mistakes but come on!

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Ukraine War Took Vladimir Putin From Steely-Eyed KGB Man to Military Bumbler. 

 

“Putin had hoped for a quick and decisive win, as the US military did to Iraq in 1991. What he’s getting is more like the Soviet army in Afghanistan in 1979: A brutal mess that might go on for a long time.”

 

https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2022/02/28/ukraine-war-took-vladimir-putin-from-steely-eyed-kgb-man-to-military-bumbler-n1561091

 

 

 

That's a lot of optimism for day 4. 

[John Adams]

56 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Alright then…so this is the best we can do. Good to know. Frightening. 

 

Tanking Russia's economy (while supporting Ukraine--I see another $6.4B is on the table today) is not some small feat. 

 

And yeah, short of starting a direct war with Russia, that might be all we can do. 

 

The reality of the world is when a nuclear power takes some lesser country, the options are limited. Wait for Taiwan. 

 

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by John Adams

[John Adams]

 

 

Of course Russia didn't even open their stock market today. Holiday or something. 

[Doc]

21 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

You mean like the 620 million we already gave them this year? Not counting the 385M just committed? 

 

And as to NATO, we want countries to be worthy of NATO. That is a good thing. The Ukraine was not but why would NATO cut it off from rising to a level worthy of joining? And to be clear, that decision is not one that Russia gets to bully the world into. 

 

Imagine if Biden had lead the charge to pre-emptively deny Ukraine NATO membership because Putin demanded it. You would have been here saying how weak Biden is. Don't even try to deny it. 

Yeah, you think they’re ready for NATO now?  That’s a cop out and you know it.  And it would have been NATO saying it, to avert war.

[SoCal Deek]

31 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

 

The reality of the world is when a nuclear power takes some lesser country, the options are limited. Wait for Taiwan. 

 

 

Thanks John....you may indeed be right. We've all been sort of wondering this for a LONG time. It's just that nobody was willing to 'type it' out loud. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by SoCal Deek

[HamSandwhich]

28 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

 

Of course Russia didn't even open their stock market today. Holiday or something. 

I can't help but feel terrible for the Russian people. It's really not many of their faults, they can't control what the dictator does. Sure you hear stories about how the Russians are proud of having a strong leader but I'm not sure it's the majority. The collateral damage of these types of sanctions are the ones who cannot afford to be sanctioned, kids, women, infirmed, the poor in general. Putin is a terrible person. 

[SCBills]

12 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said:

I can't help but feel terrible for the Russian people. It's really not many of their faults, they can't control what the dictator does. Sure you hear stories about how the Russians are proud of having a strong leader but I'm not sure it's the majority. The collateral damage of these types of sanctions are the ones who cannot afford to be sanctioned, kids, women, infirmed, the poor in general. Putin is a terrible person. 

 

We have to do something as a global community when leaders act like this, but these actions always hurt the struggling so much more than who they are intended for.  

 

Edited February 28, 2022 by SCBills

[Chef Jim]

6 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

We have to do something as a global community when leaders act like this, but these actions always hurt the struggling so much more than who they are intended for.  

 

 

Are you talking the struggling Russian citizens?  

[Warcodered]

19 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said:

I can't help but feel terrible for the Russian people. It's really not many of their faults, they can't control what the dictator does. Sure you hear stories about how the Russians are proud of having a strong leader but I'm not sure it's the majority. The collateral damage of these types of sanctions are the ones who cannot afford to be sanctioned, kids, women, infirmed, the poor in general. Putin is a terrible person. 

Unfortunate fact of dealing with a Nuclear armed dictatorship is probably one of the only ways to deal with them is through their people.

[John Adams]

38 minutes ago, Doc said:

Yeah, you think they’re ready for NATO now?  That’s a cop out and you know it.  And it would have been NATO saying it, to avert war.

 

Putin wants NATO to declare Ukraine will never be allowed to join. He's said it many times. 

 

Putin does not get to make those decisions. 

[SCBills]

1 minute ago, Chef Jim said:

 

Are you talking the struggling Russian citizens?  

Yes.  Russian citizens who are under authoritarian rule while their economic lives crumble and if they dare speak out face up to 20 years of imprisonment.  
 

I get why we do this - don’t get me wrong.  It’s meant to pressure the government by killing public perception, but innocent people are used as pawns in this war game. 

[HamSandwhich]

7 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

We have to do something as a global community when leaders act like this, but these actions always hurt the struggling so much more than who they are intended for.  

 

Of course, I'm not saying it's not necessary, it's a necessary evil sadly. Has the effect of uprising too, when they have nothing and know it's because of Putin's decision to go into Ukraine (unless the communication has been squelched by Putin and his cronies to control the media).  

 

On another note, I'm thoroughly impressed by Ukraine's resolve to fight the Russians. I hope they are able to keep it up. 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

10 minutes ago, HamSandwhich said:

 

 

On another note, I'm thoroughly impressed by Ukraine's resolve to fight the Russians. I hope they are able to keep it up. 

 

 

I hate to turn war into a spectator sport but just look at the difference here from just a few short months ago in Afghanistan. There, the so-called army collapsed in two weeks when faced with the rag-tag Taliban riding in pick-up trucks. And that was even AFTER the Americans had 'trained' the Afghan army for 20 years.  It shows you there's a lot more too this than just the number of forces you have or the money you spend.

[HamSandwhich]

1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

I hate to turn war into a spectator sport but just look at the difference here from just a few short months ago in Afghanistan. There, the so-called army collapsed in two weeks when faced with the rag-tag Taliban riding in pick-up trucks. And that was even AFTER the Americans had 'trained' the Afghan army for 20 years.  It shows you there's a lot more too this than just the number of forces you have or the money you spend.

Of course, motivation is a big piece of it.  

[Chef Jim]

28 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Yes.  Russian citizens who are under authoritarian rule while their economic lives crumble and if they dare speak out face up to 20 years of imprisonment.  
 

I get why we do this - don’t get me wrong.  It’s meant to pressure the government by killing public perception, but innocent people are used as pawns in this war game. 

 

I hate to be callus but I will be.  Sucks to be them.  When people B word about how ***** up America is they really need to count their blessings we live here and not places run but madmen like Putin. This, my friends, is why the term limits for POTUS were put in place by our brilliant Founding Fathers and why we need to roll those limits down the government line.  

[LeviF]

38 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

Putin wants NATO to declare Ukraine will never be allowed to join. He's said it many times. 

 

Putin does not get to make those decisions. 

 

He appears to be making that decision as we speak.

[HamSandwhich]

5 minutes ago, LeviF said:

 

He appears to be making that decision as we speak.

I think he hopes to make that decision. It's not happened yet.  Hope it never does, but I'm not confident it won't happen eventually. 

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, HamSandwhich said:

I can't help but feel terrible for the Russian people. It's really not many of their faults, they can't control what the dictator does. Sure you hear stories about how the Russians are proud of having a strong leader but I'm not sure it's the majority. The collateral damage of these types of sanctions are the ones who cannot afford to be sanctioned, kids, women, infirmed, the poor in general. Putin is a terrible person. 

Same with Iranian people