Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, John Adams said:

 

That's not an answer though. "Take it seriously" how? 

 

If the US shipped a bunch of weapons to Ukraine a month ago, you'd have been here saying that we're trying to provoke a war. And don't you dare deny it. 

 

Ask again: You are criticizing our response right now. What do you want the US to do right now?

 

An article on the effect of the sanctions on the Russian economy. Significant, but will it bring about change? O'Brien is not sure but again, what the world is doing is not a small thing and those $630B reserves might not go as far as Putin thinks (and might be already cut by 2/3).  

 

 https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-02-28/russian-attack-on-ukraine-west-weaponizes-central-bank-against-putin

That’s where you’re wrong. I’m not talking about the US doing anything on its own. If NATO cannot stand up for something like the current situation then what good is it? This started as a talking point premise that the Ukraine wanted to join NATO. Well if this is the price of membership then it’s probably not worth it! Again Mr Adams, step back and look at this. This is what the free world does when a country is attacked? Really? This is it? 

[John Adams]

13 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

That’s where you’re wrong. I’m not talking about the US doing anything on its own. If NATO cannot stand up for something like the current situation then what good is it? This started as a talking point premise that the Ukraine wanted to join NATO. Well if this is the price of membership then it’s probably not worth it! Again Mr Adams, step back and look at this. This is what the free world does when a country is attacked? Really? This is it? 

 

You have now 3 times complained about what the free world is doing in response to this attack. 

 

What is it you want NATO and the free world to do when a non-NATO country is attacked? 

 

Stop dodging the question or stop complaining. If you're going to say Biden and others are doing the wrong things in response to the attack, propose the alternative improved solution. Or is your armchair too cozy on this Monday morning? 

Edited February 28, 2022 by John Adams

[Tiberius]

13 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

That’s where you’re wrong. I’m not talking about the US doing anything on its own. If NATO cannot stand up for something like the current situation then what good is it? This started as a talking point premise that the Ukraine wanted to join NATO. Well if this is the price of membership then it’s probably not worth it! Again Mr Adams, step back and look at this. This is what the free world does when a country is attacked? Really? This is it? 

The Russians are losing. 

[SoCal Deek]

18 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

That's not an answer though. "Take it seriously" how? 

 

If the US shipped a bunch of weapons to Ukraine a month ago, you'd have been here saying that we're trying to provoke a war. And don't you dare deny it. 

 

Ask again: You are criticizing our response right now. What do you want the US to do right now?

 

An article on the effect of the sanctions on the Russian economy. Significant, but will it bring about change? O'Brien is not sure but again, what the world is doing is not a small thing and those $630B reserves might not go as far as Putin thinks (and might be already cut by 2/3).  

 

 https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-02-28/russian-attack-on-ukraine-west-weaponizes-central-bank-against-putin

John. I’m not a world leader…and I’m guessing you aren’t either. I’d hate to think how these folks would mess up my job if they sat in my office for even thirty minutes. You can’t honestly believe this was well handled…..can you? 

[LeviF]

I understand the frustration in this conversation. JA is saying "if 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts" while in politics it's satisfying and natural to complain about past action. Past action is the best predictor of future behavior, after all.

 

But the reality of the CURRENT situation is unfortunate. Kiev (kyiv, whatever) is surrounded. Western media is floating regime change in Russia. The only thing left for NATO and the US to do is try to do ANYTHING to give Russia something to gain from restraint. That's the only way this ends (relatively, at this point) well. Intense economic sanctions are basically all that's left, assuming WWIII is not a viable solution.

[John Adams]

13 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

John. I’m not a world leader…and I’m guessing you aren’t either. I’d hate to think how these folks would mess up my job if they sat in my office for even thirty minutes. You can’t honestly believe this was well handled…..can you? 

 

So you just complain. Got it. Thanks for confirming. 

 

Well handled? Again, what would you have done? 

 

You said that we should have done something in response to the weapons build up by Putin.

 

- Ship weapons to Ukraine? Would have given Putin a reason to invade. 

- Forbid Ukraine from joining NATO in response to Putin bullying? Disagree. Don't we want countries to be worthy of NATO membership? (And no, Ukraine though currently in vogue is NOT a model democracy and was not anywhere near being ready to join NATO.) So that's no good. 

- Share intel with Ukraine and others. Seems like we did. 

 

I think Biden might be the second worst president in my lifetime but I put the blame for this not on the US and NATO. 

 

6 minutes ago, LeviF said:

I understand the frustration in this conversation. JA is saying "if 'ifs' and 'buts' were candy and nuts" while in politics it's satisfying and natural to complain about past action. Past action is the best predictor of future behavior, after all.

 

But the reality of the CURRENT situation is unfortunate. Kiev (kyiv, whatever) is surrounded. Western media is floating regime change in Russia. The only thing left for NATO and the US to do is try to do ANYTHING to give Russia something to gain from restraint. That's the only way this ends (relatively, at this point) well. Intense economic sanctions are basically all that's left, assuming WWIII is not a viable solution.

 

Sanction Russia, support Ukraine (intel, supplies) is about all we can do to walk the line. 

 

Putin started it. In reality, the only way he stops it is if the grind hurts too much. The grind will take a lot more than 4 days unless he gets pressure from within or Operation Valykried. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by John Adams

[LeviF]

4 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

So you just complain. Got it. Thanks for confirming. 

 

Sanction Russia, support Ukraine (intel, supplies) is about all we can do to walk the line. 

 

Putin started it. In reality, the only way he stops it is if the grind hurts too much. The grind will take a lot more than 4 days unless he gets pressure from within or Operation Valykried. 

 

That's the last *****in thing we need.

[John Adams]

2 minutes ago, LeviF said:

 

That's the last *****in thing we need.

 

 

Russian leaders have a tendency to exit stage left in this fashion and I suspect it's never been more likely. You think these guys want to be locked out of the rest of the world? You think you get ***** at home from your wife and kids. Imagine those guys. 

 

"Andrei, you better get this fixed before my cruise to Monte Carlo or else." 

 

[Niagara Bill]

1 hour ago, John Adams said:

 

That's not an answer though. "Take it seriously" how? 

 

If the US shipped a bunch of weapons to Ukraine a month ago, you'd have been here saying that we're trying to provoke a war. And don't you dare deny it. 

 

Ask again: You are criticizing our response right now. What do you want the US to do right now?

 

An article on the effect of the sanctions on the Russian economy. Significant, but will it bring about change? O'Brien is not sure but again, what the world is doing is not a small thing and those $630B reserves might not go as far as Putin thinks (and might be already cut by 2/3).  

 

 https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2022-02-28/russian-attack-on-ukraine-west-weaponizes-central-bank-against-putin

Certainly they would say we were provoking a war, but they do anyway, so Putin lies every single moment if his life. Just like Hitler.

Nato should gave responded, stop the pipeline a month ago, began squeezing financial markets. 

Biden, Trudeau and others should gave been in China with the Olympics instead of insulting the Chinese. They have influence. Now where do they stand?

Wait until Trudeau makes his next speech, he will then disappear for a month.

 

[B-Man]

 

 

Ukraine War Took Vladimir Putin From Steely-Eyed KGB Man to Military Bumbler. 

 

“Putin had hoped for a quick and decisive win, as the US military did to Iraq in 1991. What he’s getting is more like the Soviet army in Afghanistan in 1979: A brutal mess that might go on for a long time.”

 

https://pjmedia.com/vodkapundit/2022/02/28/ukraine-war-took-vladimir-putin-from-steely-eyed-kgb-man-to-military-bumbler-n1561091

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

1 hour ago, John Adams said:

 

So you just complain. Got it. Thanks for confirming. 

 

Well handled? Again, what would you have done? 

 

You said that we should have done something in response to the weapons build up by Putin.

 

- Ship weapons to Ukraine? Would have given Putin a reason to invade. 

- Forbid Ukraine from joining NATO in response to Putin bullying? Disagree. Don't we want countries to be worthy of NATO membership? (And no, Ukraine though currently in vogue is NOT a model democracy and was not anywhere near being ready to join NATO.) So that's no good. 

- Share intel with Ukraine and others. Seems like we did. 

 

I think Biden might be the second worst president in my lifetime but I put the blame for this not on the US and NATO. 

 

 

Sanction Russia, support Ukraine (intel, supplies) is about all we can do to walk the line. 

 

Putin started it. In reality, the only way he stops it is if the grind hurts too much. The grind will take a lot more than 4 days unless he gets pressure from within or Operation Valykried. 

Alright then…so this is the best we can do. Good to know. Frightening. 

[Doc]

2 hours ago, John Adams said:

Ah yes, this is NATO's fault. We made Ukraine start this war. 

 

Just needed to quote this for posterity. 

 

You are nucking futs. 

 

 

So what? You want us to drive our military in to start WW3? 

 

Since we're having the conversation here, I'll ask it again here. 

 

Can someone link me to the speech where Churchill called Hitler savvy and a genius? 

Trump’s not in charge.  What he says has no bearing on anything. 
 

And Putin has been amassing troops for almost a year. The US should’ve been providing arms back then and before Putin had a chance to properly invade. They also should have said that Ukraine will not be part of NATO. It would’ve gone along way to possibly averting this crisis, if not helping them to be further along in it. 

[Tiberius]

Just now, Doc said:

Trump’s not in charge.  What he says has no bearing on anything. 
 

And Putin has been amassing troops for almost a year. The US should’ve been providing arms back then and before Putin had a chance to properly invade. They also should have said that Ukraine will not be part of NATO. It would’ve gone along way to possibly averting this crisis, if not helping them to be further along in it. 

We were. Those Javelin missiles Trump tried to deny to Ukraine were part of the build up 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

 

 

[Doc]

7 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

We were. Those Javelin missiles Trump tried to deny to Ukraine were part of the build up 

 

You mean the Javelins that Trump actually gave, versus what Barry gave?  And that were ultimately delivered?  Yeah, that was almost 2 years earlier.

[Tiberius]

Just now, Doc said:

 

You mean the Javelins that Trump actually gave, versus what Barry gave?  And that were ultimately delivered?  Yeah, that was almost 2 years earlier.

Trump literally withheld them until the word got out on what he was doing. He would of held them until after the election and if he won maybe would of never given them up. He loves Putin 

 

 

[Niagara Bill]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Trump literally withheld them until the word got out on what he was doing. He would of held them until after the election and if he won maybe would of never given them up. He loves Putin 

 

 

Ukraine would not do his asking on Hunter Biden, thus the penalty.

So Hunter is again responsible, send his spoiled little ass now to Ukraine.

[Tiberius]

Stock market not looking very bad today 

[Doc]

10 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Trump literally withheld them until the word got out on what he was doing. He would of held them until after the election and if he won maybe would of never given them up. He loves Putin 

Yeah, he witheld the money to make sure that the new government wasn’t as corrupt as the old one and not giving Hunter Biden hooker and blow money.  But he never tied one to the other.

 

And yeah, he loves Putin so much that he gave him Ukraine and Nord Stream 2 too. Oh, wait a minute…

[Tiberius]

Barbarous 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/02/28/russia-ukraine-war-putin-news/

MUKACHEVO, Ukraine — Ukrainian officials say at least 11 people were killed and more wounded in the eastern city of Kharkiv on Monday morning after Russia launched rocket strikes, targeting Ukraine’s second-largest city with some of the heaviest shelling and street fighting since the invasion began Thursday. Suspected cluster munitions struck buildings in the city.

Oleh Synehubov, head of the Kharkiv Regional State Administration, said Monday that “dozens are dying” and that at least 11 people were confirmed dead.

He called the attacks in three areas of the predominantly Russian-speaking city that had been considered more friendly to Russia “a war crime.”

“The Russian enemy is shelling entire residential areas of Kharkiv, where there is no critical infrastructure, where there are no positions of the Armed Forces of Ukraine that the Russians could aim at,” he said in a message on Telegram.

Mark Hiznay, associate director of the arms division at Human Rights Watch, told the Washington Post that Russian forces had used smerch cluster munition rockets, which disperse submunitions or bomblets, in the attack, according to footage he reviewed.

“This attack clearly illustrates the inherently indiscriminate nature of cluster munitions and should be unequivocally condemned,” he said.

Just now, Doc said:

Yeah, he witheld the money to make sure that the new government wasn’t as corrupt as the old one and not giving Hunter Biden hooker and blow money.  But he never tied one to the other.

 

And yeah, he loves Putin so much that he gave him Ukraine and Nord Stream 2 too. Oh, wait a minute…

No, he just withheld it because he wanted to. He's Putin's friend