Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[JaCrispy]

11 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

As culpable as he is, there's really no more point in bashing Trump for what he did in office.  That can't be changed.  

 

That he can't got a week with smiling like a doughnut over Putin, yeah, that's just him inviting deserved criticism.

 

But we live in a new world now. Let's quit ***** kneecapping each other over Red v Blue BS and figure out how to win.

Unfortunately, people have different concepts of what “winning” looks like- and typically, it’s in opposite directions...

[Demongyz]

1 hour ago, LDD said:

I'm not saying anything about Trump, what I'm saying is that it's a low brow tactic in a very dynamic situation that doesn't make sense.  If Donald proved anything it's that Jersey real estate tactics don't apply to international political affairs.   Foreign policy isn't a used car deal and the equating of the two is a poor comparison...IMO.

 

I guess the other part that irks me in conversations on this topic is that we far outspend the world on a military that is waaaayyy larger than we would ever need to actually defend the United States against an invasion.  Since that's what we do and we have this huge military and massive military industrial complex then we need to utilize it to enforce our will throughout the world in any given situation that we choose.  We all benefit from that flex whether any of us wants to admit it.  We live under its umbrella.  If your view is that we should withdraw into our shell then your view should also be to shrink our military to a reasonable sized force necessary to adequately defend ourselves and that's it.  In which case we should reduce our military expenditures and lower tax rates to match.  If that's your position then the stance of "we'll take our guns and go home" makes sense and is a real threat.  If it's not your stance or the government's stance (which I don't think it is or ever will be) then it's a bluff that makes us look stupid because the world knows we like our weapons and weaponry and that it's illogical to have a massive military that we're not going to deploy and use a huge persuasion throughout the world.   I don't hear that from those who beat the drum of "we should withdraw from the world stage" and it doesn't make sense.  

 

If I own brewery and you own a cattle farm and we're having a party then who's brining the beer and who's bringing the steaks?  If you want to bring the prime beef and I want to bring the over run lager and you think I should kick you some bucks to make it fair,  let's talk about it.  Don't come at me with, "well, I'll just sit at my house and eat steak then".  

I want to bring our troops home

I want to spend less on the military

I want to secure our borders

 

Yeah, that's what I want.

[LDD]

16 minutes ago, Demongyz said:

I want to bring our troops home

I want to spend less on the military

I want to secure our borders

 

Yeah, that's what I want.

Noted...I do too, but not at the expense of Europe.  I don't believe my grandkids have a fair shake if we give up Europe to dictators.  

[BillStime]

4 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Being willing to walk away from/kill a deal isn't being a clown: it's smart negotiating.  One that most people (myself included) don't (often) use.

[aristocrat]

5 minutes ago, BillStime said:

https://www.heritage.org/defense/commentary/nato-allies-now-spend-50-billion-more-defense-2016

 

 

why would trump strengthen nato? More money more defense 

[Doc]

54 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

As culpable as he is, there's really no more point in bashing Trump for what he did in office.  That can't be changed.  

 

That he can't got a week with smiling like a doughnut over Putin, yeah, that's just him inviting deserved criticism.

 

But we live in a new world now. Let's quit ***** kneecapping each other over Red v Blue BS and figure out how to win.

 

And as culpable as Joey is, I agree, let's figure out how to win.

 

 

15 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

https://www.heritage.org/defense/commentary/nato-allies-now-spend-50-billion-more-defense-2016

 

 

why would trump strengthen nato? More money more defense 

 

Well what do you know?  It worked!  The US didn't pull out of NATO, the other members are paying more, and while a few feathers may have been ruffled, it will still work just like before.

[Big Blitz]

58 minutes ago, BillStime said:

Appreciate the response but NATO is a necessary cost and insurance policy because of thugs like Putin and Trump did all he could to weaken NATO and disrupt our alliances. 
 

Why else has the cult repeatedly shared Fox News-Russian propaganda and talking points that all Biden had to say to avoid war was say no to Ukrainian membership to NATO?

 

NATO’s demise is key to dictators like Putin, Trump and the cult.

 

 

 

 

 

Where were they when he invaded Crimea in 2014?

[SoCal Deek]

58 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

Unfortunately, people have different concepts of what “winning” looks like- and typically, it’s in opposite directions...

I know what winning looks like. Just ask BillStime. 😉

[Milanos Milano]

SWIFT ban now. 

[Doc]

1 minute ago, Big Blitz said:

Where were they when he invaded Crimea in 2014?

 

Great question.  Another one is "how has NATO been weakened?"

[Demongyz]

41 minutes ago, LDD said:

Noted...I do too, but not at the expense of Europe.  I don't believe my grandkids have a fair shake if we give up Europe to dictators.  

I don't want to lose Europe either, and I don't want to reneg on our alliance, but would like to move to home and let other nations do what is best for them in time.  We can't subsidize the richest countries in the world forever.

[SoCal Deek]

You guys go down more rabbit holes than….rabbits do. Give up Europe? Crimeny (sp) sakes! 

[aristocrat]

 

[Demongyz]

1 minute ago, aristocrat said:

 

God Bless Pornhub!

[aristocrat]

49 minutes ago, LDD said:

Noted...I do too, but not at the expense of Europe.  I don't believe my grandkids have a fair shake if we give up Europe to dictators.  

you think Russia can take Europe?

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

You guys go down more rabbit holes than….rabbits do. Give up Europe? Crimeny (sp) sakes! 

Why do they call it that? 

1 minute ago, aristocrat said:

you think Russia can take Europe?

No 

[TH3]

14 minutes ago, IronMaidenBills said:

SWIFT ban now. 

Don’t complain about 7 dollar gas then

18 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

Where were they when he invaded Crimea in 2014?

Crimea was not in NATO

[BuffaninSarasota]

1 hour ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

As culpable as he is, there's really no more point in bashing Trump for what he did in office.  That can't be changed.  

 

That he can't got a week with smiling like a doughnut over Putin, yeah, that's just him inviting deserved criticism.

 

But we live in a new world now. Let's quit ***** kneecapping each other over Red v Blue BS and figure out how to win.

what a logical, conciliatory statement

 

refreshing because this place can be downright uncivil via the keyboard warriors on this board 

[Tiberius]

 

The global computer chip industry, including the giant Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company, has begun halting sales to Russia in the wake of U.S. sanctions aimed at punishing Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine.

The Biden administration announced the sanctions Thursday, saying they would cut off more than half of Russia’s high-tech imports and kneecap the country’s ability to diversify its economy and support its military.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/02/25/ukraine-russia-chips-sanctions-tsmc/

[LDD]

24 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

you think Russia can take Europe?

Take it...no...dictate policy that is detrimental to it and the United States...yes...let bullies and murderers run around unchecked and you get consequences you don't want.