Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[LDD]

17 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

It's called a takeaway.  A great sales technique that often works like a charm.  

So, you're equating the threat of the US leaving a 70 plus year old pact established after the last world war to ensure regional peace on the continent of Europe to walking out of a used car dealership??

 

Right, right...good tactic.  

[Demongyz]

8 minutes ago, LDD said:

So, you're equating the threat of the US leaving a 70 plus year old pact established after the last world war to ensure regional peace on the continent of Europe to walking out of a used car dealership??

 

Right, right...good tactic.  

How well did it work to allow most of the other countries in the agreement to not hold up their end of the bargain while they were protected by the might of the USA?

 

Yeah, Trump is a D-bag, but so are freeriders. 

[Chef Jim]

39 minutes ago, LDD said:

So, you're equating the threat of the US leaving a 70 plus year old pact established after the last world war to ensure regional peace on the continent of Europe to walking out of a used car dealership??

 

Right, right...good tactic.  

 

Yes I am.  It's a great tactic.  You think walking away from the bargaining table whether purchasing a billion dollars of RE or negotiating with world leaders is not a good tactic?  

42 minutes ago, Demongyz said:

I met Til Lindmann and a couple other Rammstein dudes at a NIN concert in like 2005.  He was shorter than I thought he would be and I told him so.  He was not impressed.

 

Drink less Dymongyz...

 

Funny because Trent is a shorty too.  I was doing their after show party where I was the Chef.  I was surprised how short he is. 

[Jauronimo]

44 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

Yes I am.  It's a great tactic.  You think walking away from the bargaining table whether purchasing a billion dollars of RE or negotiating with world leaders is not a good tactic?  

 

Funny because Trent is a shorty too.  I was doing their after show party where I was the Chef.  I was surprised how short he is. 

They're all short.  Bruce Springsteen isn't allowed on any of the rides at Six Flags.  Not tall enough.

[Niagara Bill]

3 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

Of course you did.

HIs complaint was "factual," had existed for years, and should have been voiced by other Administrations across the NATO horizon.

US wanted flippin control of Europe and that costs. Trump would never take the time to actually study...no would anyone who worships him. Strange how you react to the US using its biggest advantage for control. MONEY!

If not get your troops missiles out and see how safe you feel.

When Russia tried putting missiles 90 miles from US the country went nuts. There us a price to pay for those US bases. Quit whining or get out.

[sherpa]

2 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

US wanted flippin control of Europe and that costs. Trump would never take the time to actually study...no would anyone who worships him. Strange how you react to the US using its biggest advantage for control. MONEY!

If not get your troops missiles out and see how safe you feel.

When Russia tried putting missiles 90 miles from US the country went nuts. There us a price to pay for those US bases. Quit whining or get out.

 

Your entire post is an end NATO suggestion.

Some might think that is a bad idea.

Further, the US never wanted control of Europe. Thus we never occupy land after a confrontation.

NATO was formed to establish a coalition front among democracies against post WWII Soviet expansion after the Potsdam conference, and the US' interest was in establishing a situation where we didn't have to sacrifice another generation of our young men in successfully attempting to save Europe from itself, and its repeated habit of killing each other in land grab attempt.

I'd be glad to get out, but given events of the past two weeks, that is less likely.

 

None of that has anything to do with the legitimate suggestion that the us asks other NATO members to live up to their agreements.

 

[Jauronimo]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Being willing to walk away from/kill a deal isn't being a clown: it's smart negotiating.  One that most people (myself included) don't (often) use.

Its not universally smart negotiating.  Its one option in the toolbox and it depends on the position from which you're negotiating. 

[Niagara Bill]

16 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Your entire post is an end NATO suggestion.

Some might think that is a bad idea.

Further, the US never wanted control of Europe. Thus we never occupy land after a confrontation.

NATO was formed to establish a coalition front among democracies against post WWII Soviet expansion after the Potsdam conference, and the US' interest was in establishing a situation where we didn't have to sacrifice another generation of our young men in successfully attempting to save Europe from itself, and its repeated habit of killing each other in land grab attempt.

I'd be glad to get out, but given events of the past two weeks, that is less likely.

 

None of that has anything to do with the legitimate suggestion that the us asks other NATO members to live up to their agreements.

 

Yes the US wanted control in Europe starting in 45 and Eisenhower. 

Legitimate request asking others to pay more is great. Do it with class, behind doors without embarrassing your friends for political points. How the f can you have special relationships by trying to embarrass fellow leaders, who had nothing to do with today's situation. Controlling Europe was for US protection, as was Vietnam when they bailed out France, 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Niagara Bill

[Chef Jim]

29 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

They're all short.  Bruce Springsteen isn't allowed on any of the rides at Six Flags.  Not tall enough.

I worked at Nicky Blair’s restaurant in the 80’s. I was standing at the bar on my day off talkind to Nicky. He looks over my shoulder and says “SLY!!”  I turn around eye to eye with Stallone. I’m 5’8” on a good day.  I literally gave him a “GTFO” look.  

15 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Its not universally smart negotiating.  Its one option in the toolbox and it depends on the position from which you're negotiating. 

I always negotiated from the perspective they needed me more than I them which was true.  So that tactic was perfect. 

[Milanos Milano]

We promised If the Ukraine gave up their nukes, we would protect them. 
 

Why would anyone ever trust us again. 
 

We should be ashamed that we are allowing a maniac to dictate the Ukrainians fate. 

Edited February 25, 2022 by IronMaidenBills

[LDD]

1 hour ago, Demongyz said:

How well did it work to allow most of the other countries in the agreement to not hold up their end of the bargain while they were protected by the might of the USA?

 

Yeah, Trump is a D-bag, but so are freeriders. 

I'm not saying anything about Trump, what I'm saying is that it's a low brow tactic in a very dynamic situation that doesn't make sense.  If Donald proved anything it's that Jersey real estate tactics don't apply to international political affairs.   Foreign policy isn't a used car deal and the equating of the two is a poor comparison...IMO.

 

I guess the other part that irks me in conversations on this topic is that we far outspend the world on a military that is waaaayyy larger than we would ever need to actually defend the United States against an invasion.  Since that's what we do and we have this huge military and massive military industrial complex then we need to utilize it to enforce our will throughout the world in any given situation that we choose.  We all benefit from that flex whether any of us wants to admit it.  We live under its umbrella.  If your view is that we should withdraw into our shell then your view should also be to shrink our military to a reasonable sized force necessary to adequately defend ourselves and that's it.  In which case we should reduce our military expenditures and lower tax rates to match.  If that's your position then the stance of "we'll take our guns and go home" makes sense and is a real threat.  If it's not your stance or the government's stance (which I don't think it is or ever will be) then it's a bluff that makes us look stupid because the world knows we like our weapons and weaponry and that it's illogical to have a massive military that we're not going to deploy and use a huge persuasion throughout the world.   I don't hear that from those who beat the drum of "we should withdraw from the world stage" and it doesn't make sense.  

 

If I own brewery and you own a cattle farm and we're having a party then who's brining the beer and who's bringing the steaks?  If you want to bring the prime beef and I want to bring the over run lager and you think I should kick you some bucks to make it fair,  let's talk about it.  Don't come at me with, "well, I'll just sit at my house and eat steak then".  

[John Adams]

4 minutes ago, LDD said:

If I own brewery and you own a cattle farm and we're having a party then who's brining the beer and who's bringing the steaks?  If you want to bring the prime beef and I want to bring the over run lager and you think I should kick you some bucks to make it fair,  let's talk about it.  Don't come at me with, "well, I'll just sit at my house and eat steak then".  

 

That's about the worst argument for war I've ever heard. Bravo. 

[sherpa]

24 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

 

Legitimate request asking others to pay more is great. Do it with class, behind doors without embarrassing your friends for political points. How the f can you have special relationships by trying to embarrass fellow leaders, who had nothing to do with today's situation. 

 

There is a difference between "asking to pay more," and asking a country to live up to its agreed to obligations.

Regarding you suggestion that it was done behind closed doors, that has been going on for years.

Trump wasn't the first.

 

I pointed out the real consequences of the failure of NATO allies to keep up their promises, and those realities are real.

I am reminded of a flag US Army guy who was asked by someone what it would be like going to war without French support.

His response was that;

     "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."

 

The fact is that by failing to live up to  agreed to obligations, some nations, with the absolute omission of the UK, are becoming accordions.

 

Tanking. Command and Control. Electronic Warfare. Combat Search and Rescue. Airlift capability. Logistics support. Intel in the satellite and signal intel ops. Special Forces. Navy.

It goes on and on, and two NATO "partners" are bearing the burden, which results, as I have posted and which you conveniently avoid, in huge effects on mission planning and likely casualties. 

 

 

[LDD]

16 minutes ago, John Adams said:

 

That's about the worst argument for war I've ever heard. Bravo. 

Not arguing for war.  That's a NATO analogy. I won't explain it.  Maybe it's bad, maybe you don't understand it...we may never know.  

[Niagara Bill]

17 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

There is a difference between "asking to pay more," and asking a country to live up to its agreed to obligations.

Regarding you suggestion that it was done behind closed doors, that has been going on for years.

Trump wasn't the first.

 

I pointed out the real consequences of the failure of NATO allies to keep up their promises, and those realities are real.

I am reminded of a flag US Army guy who was asked by someone what it would be like going to war without French support.

His response was that;

     "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without your accordion."

 

The fact is that by failing to live up to  agreed to obligations, some nations, with the absolute omission of the UK, are becoming accordions.

 

Tanking. Command and Control. Electronic Warfare. Combat Search and Rescue. Airlift capability. Logistics support. Intel in the satellite and signal intel ops. Special Forces. Navy.

It goes on and on, and two NATO "partners" are bearing the burden, which results, as I have posted and which you conveniently avoid, in huge effects on mission planning and likely casualties. 

 

 

I love the accordion,  hate deer hunting..I accept countries dud nit live up to their obligations, but you publicly do not hug your enemy and insult your friends.

By the way, the US has no intent of sharing tech with others and demand to control those aspects of their arsenals. The great American war machine insist on continued support so the US has some interest there as well.

I do not want further debate, the US pays too much, others under pay, you do not show up friends, you do not publicly hug your enemy for no reason.

End of my participation in this discussion. Trump did not help this situation. 

[Chef Jim]

[sherpa]

9 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

I accept countries dud nit live up to their obligations, but you publicly do not hug your enemy and insult your friends.

 

The friends have been hugged for years.

Well before Trump.

[Coffeesforclosers]

As culpable as he is, there's really no more point in bashing Trump for what he did in office.  That can't be changed.  

 

That he can't got a week with smiling like a doughnut over Putin, yeah, that's just him inviting deserved criticism.

 

But we live in a new world now. Let's quit ***** kneecapping each other over Red v Blue BS and figure out how to win.

[John Adams]

9 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

Heard worse ideas than actually singing about peace. 

 

Nice little bit of class warfare there too. 

[BillStime]

5 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

Trump is a clown. That's the way he "negotiates," by threatening to kill a situation in an effort to get the other side to move.

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the US was going to exit NATO.

This is not a dictatorship, and for you to even think that was anything other than trying to get the other deadbeat members to live up to their agreement is, well-I won't use the word you called me.

 

Look at NATO.

Look at their capabilities, if yu even have the ability to understand such things.

 

Where is the command and control coming from, ie AWACS/Early Warning?

 

Where is the airlift capability coming from?

(Here's an anecdotal. Years ago, France was enduring a killer heat wave and drought in its' southern region. They hadn't the internal ability to supply the region, so they asked the US and we did. That was their own citizens in their own country).

No publicity, just handled.

 

Where is the electronic countermeasure capability coming from, you know, the defensive forces required to protect their strike aircraft?

 

Where is the airborne tanker capability coming from?

 

The point is that the repeated failure to keep up created a huge disparity in capability, and anyone who knows anything about strike planning or combat air defense is well aware of the  consequeces.

 

But........Maybe I'm just ignorant.

 

Appreciate the response but NATO is a necessary cost and insurance policy because of thugs like Putin and Trump did all he could to weaken NATO and disrupt our alliances. 
 

Why else has the cult repeatedly shared Fox News-Russian propaganda and talking points that all Biden had to say to avoid war was say no to Ukrainian membership to NATO?

 

NATO’s demise is key to dictators like Putin, Trump and the cult.

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by BillStime