Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[BillStime]

2 minutes ago, wnyguy said:

Perhaps if you repeated that 10 more times somebody would believe you?

History is not on your side. Laughable to watch you traitors rewrite history. 

[ComradeKayAdams]

22 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I’ve been reading many of the thoughts shared here today.  Most of the back ‘n forth comes from muscle memory.   We’ll have the obligatory cult reference, a reference to a poster long gone from this site, Biden is a tired old man commentary, castigation of Trump, and so on.  My sense is most lack a fundamental understanding of what’s going on there, who’s to blame and how to fix it.  I am counted among the faithful.

 

Sure, but I’d like to think that the whole point of this thread is for everyone to gain a better understanding of the causes, who’s to blame, what’s going on currently, and paths to take that can solve the crisis. My own assessment, FWIW:

 

1. The causes: My one-sentence summary is that this is a typical clash between rival imperialist competitors (U.S. and Russia) in a major economic, cultural, and political market (all of Europe, really…not just Ukraine and the Slavic homelands).

 

A slightly more nuanced take requires thinking beyond the classic left vs. right political paradigm and into a populist vs. establishment one. Everyone here understands that Russia is a corrupt corporate oligarchy with an authoritarian ringleader (Putin). But would everyone also agree that the United States also functions as a corrupt corporate oligarchy whose M.I.C.-rooted foreign policy arm is driven by economic exploitation and not some noble illusory support of global democracy and the preservation of human rights abroad? How about the idea that Biden, Trump, Obama, living Bush, pervert Clinton, pantsuit Clinton too, dead Bush, Reagan, etc… were/are all war criminals and political duopolists whose variations in foreign policy decisions were/are pond ripples above an underlying tidal wave of imperialism? How Trump was another in a long line of heavy-handed American supremacists who may have been less of a bully interventionist (relative to Obama and Biden) in some key respects (Libya, Syria, Iraq) but more of one in others (JCPOA/Iran, Yemen, Cuba, Venezuela, certain dealings with Russia, also never got us out of Afghanistan like he promised, etc.)? How the M.I.C. budget keeps rising every year regardless of the political tribe affiliation of the sitting president, and this is why the American people are told that they cannot have basic things that every other civilized country take for granted like universal health care??

 

No?! OMG seriously? Then we have a HUGE problem here. Shall we carefully go over every single f*$king coup, regime change war, embargo, and sanction since WW2? The Afghanistan Papers? Collateral damage data from drone strikes? Yemeni civil war? Palestine? Activities in the Horn of Africa? OMG what we’re currently doing in Syria??!! What we’re currently doing throughout Latin America beyond the Cuba and Venezuelan sanctions?? By all means, someone PLEASE defend American post-WW2 imperialistic foreign policy for me…and do so from a secular humanist, Judeo-Christian, and/or Constitutional perspective…

 

<<< insert gif of Kay furiously shoveling popcorn (seasoned…no butter…f*$k the dairy industry too) into her mouth. >>>

 

2. Blame game: It’s all on Russia. None of their many listed grievances against NATO (many of which I found reasonable, up until the Ukraine invasion happened…) can justify this unprovoked military aggression against a sovereign nation. Putin did not come close to exhausting his diplomatic options.

 

3. What’s going on currently: We’ll just have to rely on the news media and navigate a bit through some of the fog of war and the propaganda.

 

4. How to fix the crisis: No idea. Does anyone, really? Direct combat between nuclear powers should always be off the table. Proxy combat is very treacherous, but it may eventually become necessary. Sanctions probably present the most viable options, unfortunately, but how can we tailor them in such a way as to maximally affect the Russian oligarchs and minimally affect the Russian people and the rest of the world? I’m very uneasy of the manifold repercussions of banning those oligarchs from SWIFT. One major leverage we do have over Putin is the fact that their national economy is extremely imbalanced and reliant on fossil fuel exports. Our very first option, of course, should be diplomacy where NATO offers a series of concessions (back to its original status during the 90’s?) in order to get Russia to cease fire and withdraw their troops. Western hubris and Putin’s crossing of the metaphorical Rubicon into the physical country of Ukraine, however, may have already rendered this option moot.

 

Something I want to quickly challenge here is the pervasive notion that energy independence through greatly increased domestic fossil fuel production is the West’s best solution. Never mind the anthropogenic climate change debate. I would encourage everyone to look at tabulated data of various energy categories for Russia, the U.S., Germany, the rest of Europe, and basically the rest of the world. Scan over what is exported, imported, and consumed in each country. Look at their trade partners. Look at production before and after the pandemic. The takeaway here should be that a concerted global effort to reroute energy trade markets at current production levels is more than sufficient to isolate Russia. Some basic degree of cooperation is expected from the major Middle East oil countries, however. I assume Venezuela and Iran will align with Russia, while China will try to play both major sides.

 

 

Thank you for your cathartic post, Leh-nerd, and don’t forget to vote in the 2022 TBD PPP Subforum Moderator election!! Who do you serve?! Who do we deserve?! Toward whom will you electorally swerve?

 

Leh-nerd: “Irv. IRV. For the love of God, Kay…IRV. Just please stop typing. Ugh. I could use another vacation in Florida. I hate you.”

[sherpa]

Hey BillSTime.

Your post is such a bizarre item that I'm not going to quote it.

Instead I'll respond to the accusation made here:

    "Trump was hellbent on destroying NATO and used financing NATO as a red herring to discredit and delegitimize NATO because ignorant people like you would buy it hook line and sinker."

 

      "Ignorant people" like me?

Have you ever planned a strike? Have you ever looked at NATO capability and actually tried to plan a reasonable military option?

Here's a clue.

The difference between individual capability in NATO was disproportionate and getting worse. That has a huge impact on planning a joint response to a serious threat.

I cannot stand Trump, but the disparity in individual NATO capability, brought about by failure to abide by agreed funding, was grossly obvious and would have had significant negative results.

 

If that makes me "ignorant," so be it.

[John Adams]

4 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

 

Breaking new: Putin agreeing to peace talks? Hmmmm...

 

Could mean anything

 

It means that China said Russia should talk to Ukraine about ending the war so it could look good. 

 

And that Putin also wants to look good so he suggested the neutral (cough cough) location of Minsk. 

 

It's theater. 

[wnyguy]

1 minute ago, BillStime said:

History is not on your side. Laughable to watch you traitors rewrite history. 

I'm starting to get the feeling, and call me crazy if I'm wrong, but I am starting to think that it's possible that you do not like Trump? Just a suspicion from reading some of your posts.

[BillStime]

2 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Hey BillSTime.

Your post is such a bizarre item that I'm not going to quote it.

Instead I'll respond to the accusation made here:

    "Trump was hellbent on destroying NATO and used financing NATO as a red herring to discredit and delegitimize NATO because ignorant people like you would buy it hook line and sinker."

 

      "Ignorant people" like me?

Have you ever planned a strike? Have you ever looked at NATO capability and actually tried to plan a reasonable military option?

Here's a clue.

The difference between individual capability in NATO was disproportionate and getting worse. That has a huge impact on planning a joint response to a serious threat.

I cannot stand Trump, but the disparity in individual NATO capability, brought about by failure to abide by agreed funding, was grossly obvious and would have had significant negative results.

 

If that makes me "ignorant," so be it.

Why did Trump want to remove us from NATO?

 

 

[SCBills]

Hard to know whether this would have happened if Trump was President, but a few things…

 

1) We’d have the American energy faucet turned all the way up.   This would allow us more flexibility for us and our allies in Russian sanctions. 
 

2)  Afghanistan likely does not turn out the way in which it did.  It was always going to be messy, but Trump recognized how awful giving up the airbase was when it happened… one can deduce that he would not have given that up, thus leading to chaos.   
 

Russia & China most assuredly paid attention to this debacle and the condemnation America received on the world stage.  
 

3) Trump likely wouldn’t have shared intelligence with China.  Absolutely insane that this happened.  China and Russia absolutely saw that as weakness in America groveling to China to stop their new ally. 

[sherpa]

11 minutes ago, BillStime said:

Why did Trump want to remove us from NATO?

 

 

 

Trump is a clown. That's the way he "negotiates," by threatening to kill a situation in an effort to get the other side to move.

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the US was going to exit NATO.

This is not a dictatorship, and for you to even think that was anything other than trying to get the other deadbeat members to live up to their agreement is, well-I won't use the word you called me.

 

Look at NATO.

Look at their capabilities, if yu even have the ability to understand such things.

 

Where is the command and control coming from, ie AWACS/Early Warning?

 

Where is the airlift capability coming from?

(Here's an anecdotal. Years ago, France was enduring a killer heat wave and drought in its' southern region. They hadn't the internal ability to supply the region, so they asked the US and we did. That was their own citizens in their own country).

No publicity, just handled.

 

Where is the electronic countermeasure capability coming from, you know, the defensive forces required to protect their strike aircraft?

 

Where is the airborne tanker capability coming from?

 

The point is that the repeated failure to keep up created a huge disparity in capability, and anyone who knows anything about strike planning or combat air defense is well aware of the  consequeces.

 

But........Maybe I'm just ignorant.

 

[B-Man]

 

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Trump is a clown. That's the way he "negotiates," by threatening to kill a situation in an effort to get the other side to move.

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the US was going to exit NATO.

This is not a dictatorship, and for you to even think that was anything other than trying to get the other deadbeat members to live up to their agreement is, well-I won't use the word you called me.

 

Look at NATO.

Look at their capabilities, if yu even have the ability to understand such things.

 

Where is the command and control coming from, ie AWACS/Early Warning?

 

Where is the airlift capability coming from?

(Here's an anecdotal. Years ago, France was enduring a killer heat wave and drought in its' southern region. They hadn't the internal ability to supply the region, so they asked the US and we did. That was their own citizens in their own country).

No publicity, just handled.

 

Where is the electronic countermeasure capability coming from, you know, the defensive forces required to protect their strike aircraft?

 

Where is the airborne tanker capability coming from?

 

The point is that the repeated failure to keep up created a huge disparity in capability, and anyone who knows anything about strike planning or combat air defense is well aware of the  consequeces.

 

But........Maybe I'm just ignorant.

 

Good sir, must I remind you that Germany is sending Ukraine 5,000 helmets… 

[wnyguy]

1 minute ago, SCBills said:

Good sir, must I remind you that Germany is sending Ukraine 5,000 helmets… 

And they are the ones with the spikes on the top!

[SoCal Deek]

28 minutes ago, BillStime said:

Why did Trump want to remove us from NATO?

 

 

I’m begging you! PLEASE do not come with me when I buy a new car. I’ll end up being talked into the spray on rust treatment…and I live in Southern California! 

[Chef Jim]

Hey Ukraine!  Kick ass and keep rockin’ in the free world!

 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Chef Jim

[Doc]

23 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Trump is a clown. That's the way he "negotiates," by threatening to kill a situation in an effort to get the other side to move.

There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that the US was going to exit NATO.

This is not a dictatorship, and for you to even think that was anything other than trying to get the other deadbeat members to live up to their agreement is, well-I won't use the word you called me.

 

Look at NATO.

Look at their capabilities, if yu even have the ability to understand such things.

 

Where is the command and control coming from, ie AWACS/Early Warning?

 

Where is the airlift capability coming from?

(Here's an anecdotal. Years ago, France was enduring a killer heat wave and drought in its' southern region. They hadn't the internal ability to supply the region, so they asked the US and we did. That was their own citizens in their own country).

No publicity, just handled.

 

Where is the electronic countermeasure capability coming from, you know, the defensive forces required to protect their strike aircraft?

 

Where is the airborne tanker capability coming from?

 

The point is that the repeated failure to keep up created a huge disparity in capability, and anyone who knows anything about strike planning or combat air defense is well aware of the  consequeces.

 

But........Maybe I'm just ignorant.

 

Being willing to walk away from/kill a deal isn't being a clown: it's smart negotiating.  One that most people (myself included) don't (often) use.

[Big Blitz]

Trump's fault

 

--Bill Stime

 

 

 

Russia threatens 'military and political consequences' if Finland, Sweden try joining NATO

 

Russia threatened "military and political consequences" against Finland and Sweden on Friday if they attempted to join NATO.

 

Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova warned against other countries attempting to join NATO after Russia started a war with Ukraine Thursday.

 

"Finland and Sweden should not base their security on damaging the security of other countries and their accession to NATO can have detrimental consequences and face some military and political consequences," Zakharova said in a viral clip of a press conference.

 

The ministry later posted the same threat on its Twitter. Finland and Sweden have given significant military and humanitarian support to Ukraine since Russia invaded.

 

One pretext Russia has given for attacking Ukraine is that NATO would not give any assurance that Ukraine would not be allowed to join the intergovernmental military alliance.

 

Ukraine has been adamant about joining but is now willing to discuss a different status with NATO after hundreds were killed in the first day of fighting the Russians.

 

Russia and Ukraine are both sending delegations to Belarus to discuss Ukraine potentially adopting a nonaligned status with NATO.

 

The talks come as Russia is closing in on Kyiv, Ukraine's capital city. However, U.S. intelligence says Ukrainians are putting up a better resistance to Russian forces than expected.

 

https://thehill.com/policy/international/russia/595853-russia-threatens-military-and-political-consequences-if-finland

 

[sherpa]

40 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Good sir, must I remind you that Germany is sending Ukraine 5,000 helmets… 

 

I saw that, and God love the German allies, but I immediately thought of Sgt. Shultz.

[aristocrat]

 

[Chef Jim]

33 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

Being willing to walk away from/kill a deal isn't being a clown: it's smart negotiating.  One that most people (myself included) don't (often) use.

 

It's called a takeaway.  A great sales technique that often works like a charm.  

[letsgoteam]

2 hours ago, SCBills said:

Fwiw, Zelensky is a straight G.   He’s now left his location and has joined up with the Ukrainian military to fight.  

Meanwhile our country had to have "safe spaces" for college students after an election. 

 

With that being said, its not like I have served or anything...

 

 

[Demongyz]

1 hour ago, Chef Jim said:

Hey Ukraine!  Kick ass and keep rockin’ in the free world!

 

 

I met Til Lindmann and a couple other Rammstein dudes at a NIN concert in like 2005.  He was shorter than I thought he would be and I told him so.  He was not impressed.

 

Drink less Dymongyz...