Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Demongyz]

Not blocking Swift, not blocking oil and gas...

 

Guess they aren't serious.

[John Adams]

4 minutes ago, Demongyz said:

Not blocking Swift, not blocking oil and gas...

 

Guess they aren't serious.

Germany won’t do it. 
 

Maybe not building nuclear power plants was a bad idea?

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

1 hour ago, ComradeKayAdams said:

 

UGH. Full apologies, Tibsy. You were right and I was wrong. I completely underestimated Putin’s capacity for economic brinkmanship. Is it safe to assume that Russia and China arranged a sweet trade partnership beforehand?? The latest I heard was that China was prevaricating on Ukraine.

 

 

 

Yeah, the political tribalism at PPP is super annoying and is also missing the mark. Normally this is the moment where I would insert a lengthy rant against all facets of the bipartisan post-1989 American imperialism (with particular emphasis on NATO aggression, Yanukovych ousting, etc.), but the brutal reality here is that the Ukrainian invasion is 100% Putin’s fault and 0% anyone else’s.

 

At least Nord Stream 2 is dead now. GOOD.

Kay, here’s the dealio.  Tribalism is a fancy world for people being people, and there’s not much more to it than that. 
 

I visited Florida last week (the state, not hip hop singer extraordinaire Flo Rida to whose music you, @muppy and all your teeny bopper friends danced to at your sock hops or raves not all that long ago) and there were two old guys chatting in the pool.  One guy was not so much anti-Trump as he was anti-Biden, the other not so much anti-Biden as “What do I know from supply chain issues and whattayagunnado?”. 
 

They talked for quite a while, loud af as I was trying to read my book in peace as the hot sun gently caressed my winter weary bones.  I wanted to tell them to dial it down, or at least yell out   “CAPITAL GAINS!!” when one geez was trying to remember what it was he was upset with Pelosi about regarding stock sales. Clearly they were not clients of @Chef Jim. I minded my business. 

 

The back and forth reminded me a bit of our site here, neither giving much ground, no problems solved, and of course not so much spicy language absent the cloak of invisibility present here. 
 

I’ve been reading many of the thoughts shared here today.  Most of the back ‘n forth comes from muscle memory.   We’ll have the obligatory cult reference, a reference to a poster long gone from this site, Biden is a tired old man commentary, castigation of Trump, and so on.  My sense is most lack a fundamental understanding of what’s going on there, who’s to blame and how to fix it.  I am counted among the faithful. 
 

My 22 year old son quite literally just asked me my thoughts on this crisis.  Here’s the deal:

 

In spite of my feelings about the current admin and how we got here, my hope is that somewhere, somehow someone with knowledge and leadership figures a way out of this mess with a minimum amount of loss of life, and protecting our National Interest as one of the top priorities.  I’m that regard, we’re all part of the same tribe and the rest is just chit -chat. 
 

I particularly appreciate @sherpa his contributions and his thoughts here.
 

God bless to all if they have people in harm’s way—military, civilian, or in whatever passes for “the old country”.  For that matter, God bless to us all, the Ukrainians and innocent Rooskies wherever they may be. 

 

[Big Blitz]

"Complete rupture in US-Russia relations."  

 

Ya think Brandon.  

 

 

Love the "nice Junior bashing NATO" comments.  He just posted their video.  

[B-Man]

 

 

 

C'mon man.

 

 

 

 

ADDED:  This is the time where he could be more decisive and Americans would go along with him though most of us opposed getting involved,

 

and this is what we get.................weakness.

 

Pray for the civilians.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by B-Man

[Chef Jim]

6 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

"Complete rupture in US-Russia relations."  

 

Ya think Brandon.  

 

 

Love the "nice Junior bashing NATO" comments.  He just posted their video.  

 

Look at all those shiny happy people!!  Makes me feel so safe and proud! 

[Niagara Bill]

1 hour ago, snafu said:

Poles are not Russian people.  Never were. 
 

I do not disagree, but like Ukraine there are dissidents to bring to light issues. Part of Poland was born in Soviet Union and Communism.

Putin is a mad man, getting Ukraine without a fight. Started with a small section but now obvious. With nucs weapons in play, who will fire first...Putin, France, Britain, Biden, Germany? And do not underestimate China's role...

[Tiberius]

So far  

4 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

C'mon man.

 

 

 

 

ADDED:  This is the time where he could be more decisive and Americans would go along with him though most of us opposed getting involved,

 

and this is what we get.................weakness.

 

Pray for the civilians.

 

 

Sanctions will take time. Decisive how? You think we should send in our awesome drones and smash Russian armour?

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

Hey remember when the President of the United States held up military aid to Ukraine so that they would be pressured to announce an investigation into his political competitors? And it was just brushed off by his supporters?

 

This was the situation that threat was leveraged against. The idea that without US aid, Ukraine would be overrun by Russia.

 

 

Anyone who stood by while that happened that has no business caring about Ukraine now. Especially when they choose to roll out culture war nonsense in response to a threat their messiah enabled and continues to enable.

[Niagara Bill]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Didn't Dick Cheney come up with the plan to have us dependant on foreign oil as VP? Anyone remember that? 

 

That said, yes, start pumping the oil! Drill baby drill!!! Fight Global warming with carbon sequestrion methods 

lol 

 

ok, thanks 

 

Love you Westy ❤️

Can't do that. Pipelines from Canada are against dems policies, enough oil in Alberta to supply US needs

[Demongyz]

1 minute ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

Hey remember when the President of the United States held up military aid to Ukraine so that they would be pressured to announce an investigation into his political competitors? And it was just brushed off by his supporters?

 

This was the situation that threat was leveraged against. The idea that without US aid, Ukraine would be overrun by Russia.

 

 

Anyone who stood by while that happened that has no business caring about Ukraine now. Especially when they choose to roll out culture war nonsense in response to a threat their messiah enabled and continues to enable.

Remember when the former vice president did too?  Well, son of a B word, they fired him.  Guess investigation into Burisma had to stop.  

 

Trump gave lethal aid, Obama gave garbage.  Now Russia is in Ukraine and Trump is in Florida and Biden is in DC.  What's next?

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

8 minutes ago, Demongyz said:

Remember when the former vice president did too?  Well, son of a B word, they fired him.  Guess investigation into Burisma had to stop.  

 

Trump gave lethal aid, Obama gave garbage.  Now Russia is in Ukraine and Trump is in Florida and Biden is in DC.  What's next?

Ahh you are one of those delusional ones who can't grasp that firing a corrupt prosecutor would have made it more likely for Burisma to be caught for doing something wrong. And even if it hypothetically did (which any objective analysis has debunked) it would have bore no relation on how likely Ukraine would be invaded. You're grasping desperately for some "whataboutism" when one side is so clearly in the wrong.

 

Btw Being in Florida didn't stop Trump from calling into Fox News to compliment Putin. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, John Adams said:

 

Your knee jerk literally--in the moment--reaction to a war started by a nuclear powered evil regime...is to blame...I almost can't believe I'm going to say this but here it is...you're blaming an American for this? 

 

You might want to take a little time to reassess yourself. 

 

By all means, take your complaint out at the voting booth in 2024  but Jesus dude.

I'm just citing facts here without judgment.  And it's verified by the very recorded words of the then under-secretary of State telling European officials, to paraphrase, "this is how its going down in Ukraine and if you don't like it then F you".  Its not my opinion so why attack me?  Why don't you redirect your anger at the people setting and executing these policies and creating negative consequences for a lot of people instead of attacking powerless citizen (me) just pointing them out?  

 

 

     

[Demongyz]

6 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

Ahh you are one of those delusional ones who can't grasp that firing a corrupt prosecutor would have made it more likely for Burisma to be caught for doing something wrong. And even if it hypothetically did (which any objective analysis has debunked) it would have bore no relation on how likely Ukraine would be invaded. You're grasping desperately for some "whataboutism" when one side is so clearly in the wrong.

 

Btw Being in Florida didn't stop Trump from calling into Fox News to compliment Putin. 

you are misrepresenting what Trump said and you either know it or didn't see the whole statement.  I also know very well that a corrupt prosecutor that was investigating a corrupt Burisma was fired because of a corrupt VP who is now POTUS.

 

I DON'T GIVE A *****!

 

Let's talk about the future because what has been done has been done, and we are rolling right into a major global conflict because of current policies.  Let's talk about the future failure instead of the past.

[B-Man]

 

 

 

There are any number of reasons that this may be happening.

 

It could just be a head fake designed to bring diplomatic pressure to bear on Kyiv and remove some pressure from Moscow.

 

It could indicate that the oligarchs are nervous about potential sanctions and want this adventure wound down.

 

It is also possible that the Russians have simply overextended themselves and are facing a protracted conflict if Ukraine holds fast.

 

What has struck me about this entire operation is the level of operational sophistication that the Russians are trying to showcase. The Russians are attacking over three widely separated axes of advance. Nothing we’ve seen of the Russian Army in the past thirty years would indicate that the Russian Army can sustain the logistics necessary for this ambitious plan.

 

https://redstate.com/streiff/2022/02/24/report-russia-offers-terms-of-surrender-to-ukraine-n527216

 

 

 

[Demongyz]

1 minute ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

There are any number of reasons that this may be happening.

 

It could just be a head fake designed to bring diplomatic pressure to bear on Kyiv and remove some pressure from Moscow.

 

It could indicate that the oligarchs are nervous about potential sanctions and want this adventure wound down.

 

It is also possible that the Russians have simply overextended themselves and are facing a protracted conflict if Ukraine holds fast.

 

What has struck me about this entire operation is the level of operational sophistication that the Russians are trying to showcase. The Russians are attacking over three widely separated axes of advance. Nothing we’ve seen of the Russian Army in the past thirty years would indicate that the Russian Army can sustain the logistics necessary for this ambitious plan.

 

https://redstate.com/streiff/2022/02/24/report-russia-offers-terms-of-surrender-to-ukraine-n527216

 

 

 

Perhaps they thought Ukraine would have just rolled over.  Perhaps Ukraine remembers the millions of Ukranians that died of starvation in the USSR.

 

Ukraine can beat them back if they are given proper support.  USA, G7, NATO whomever need to hold strong and break the Russians back, but if Russia turns off the oil, Europe will fold in no time.

 

USA needs to contact Canada and apologize for the Keystone pipeline and get it rolling again.  USA needs to begin drilling, fracking, whatever it takes to get as much oil and gas as quickly as possible and prepare to support Europe. 

 

Putin can be put back in his cage if we give up on tired ideologies and work to become energy independent again, especially from Russia and by we, I mean the west.

[muppy]

1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Kay, here’s the dealio.  Tribalism is a fancy world for people being people, and there’s not much more to it than that. 
 

I visited Florida last week (the state, not hip hop singer extraordinaire Flo Rida to whose music you, @muppy and all your teeny bopper friends danced to at your sock hops or raves not all that long ago) and there were two old guys chatting in the pool.  One guy was not so much anti-Trump as he was anti-Biden, the other not so much anti-Biden as “What do I know from supply chain issues and whattayagunnado?”. 
 

They talked for quite a while, loud af as I was trying to read my book in peace as the hot sun gently caressed my winter weary bones.  I wanted to tell them to dial it down, or at least yell out   “CAPITAL GAINS!!” when one geez was trying to remember what it was he was upset with Pelosi about regarding stock sales. Clearly they were not clients of @Chef Jim. I minded my business. 

 

The back and forth reminded me a bit of our site here, neither giving much ground, no problems solved, and of course not so much spicy language absent the cloak of invisibility present here. 
 

I’ve been reading many of the thoughts shared here today.  Most of the back ‘n forth comes from muscle memory.   We’ll have the obligatory cult reference, a reference to a poster long gone from this site, Biden is a tired old man commentary, castigation of Trump, and so on.  My sense is most lack a fundamental understanding of what’s going on there, who’s to blame and how to fix it.  I am counted among the faithful. 
 

My 22 year old son quite literally just asked me my thoughts on this crisis.  Here’s the deal:

 

In spite of my feelings about the current admin and how we got here, my hope is that somewhere, somehow someone with knowledge and leadership figures a way out of this mess with a minimum amount of loss of life, and protecting our National Interest as one of the top priorities.  I’m that regard, we’re all part of the same tribe and the rest is just chit -chat. 
 

I particularly appreciate @sherpa his contributions and his thoughts here.
 

God bless to all if they have people in harm’s way—military, civilian, or in whatever passes for “the old country”.  For that matter, God bless to us all, the Ukrainians and innocent Rooskies wherever they may be. 

 

Florida Schmorida Leo what the heck??? ... LOL sorry I couldn't resist thanks for the chuckle

 

Actually  if you hadn't have called me here I think I would have ventured into the PPP dungeon here anyway because this action by Putin into the Ukraine is kind of freaking me out. Hubby asked "did u hear about the kill lists"? Im like NO......well they have these lists and heads will definitely roll.......It makes me feel sick in my stomach. BULLY BEHAVIOR my friend I cannot Stand a bully.

 

You are a voice of reason here. I appreciate you and now will read the previous postings to further inform myself. As my stomach turns.

 

😞

 

m

 

 

[sherpa]

26 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

Nothing we’ve seen of the Russian Army in the past thirty years would indicate that the Russian Army can sustain the logistics necessary for this ambitious plan.

 

 

And in my view, that is what sets them up for "the bridge too far" scenario.

Two points.

     First, they have to hold the territory. If you have a culture that does not want that, given the magnitude of failures that regime has authored in the past, it is a very tough sell to convince an informed population that the Russian system is desirable. The only people who would want that are those that are direct beneficiaries.

    Reminds me of Hugo Chavez. The guy went around South America spouting about his Bolivarian Revolution. Initially, he got some traction and did his grand tour.

    Quickly, the South American continent realized that he was pushing nothing more than Cuban economic policy and after his oil card was played out he couldn't get an audience anywhere and faded into oblivion.

    Like South America, the Poles, and everyone else once under the Soviet system will never listen to that bull.... again.

 

     Second, if he were to try NATO resolve, he would be destroyed. US and NATO air power would demolish his ability to supply his offensive forces as supply lines were stretched. There is simply no way that as presently constituted the Russian Air Force could successfully defend supply lines over hundred of miles, and he doesn't have those resources anyway, nor the ability to rejuvenate them.

 

   If he's smart, he takes the part of the Ukraine that has a large separatist population.

If he's not, he does the bridge too far thing, and gets his ass handed to him. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by sherpa

[PetermansRedemption]

10 minutes ago, Demongyz said:

Perhaps they thought Ukraine would have just rolled over.  Perhaps Ukraine remembers the millions of Ukranians that died of starvation in the USSR.

 

Ukraine can beat them back if they are given proper support.  USA, G7, NATO whomever need to hold strong and break the Russians back, but if Russia turns off the oil, Europe will fold in no time.

 

USA needs to contact Canada and apologize for the Keystone pipeline and get it rolling again.  USA needs to begin drilling, fracking, whatever it takes to get as much oil and gas as quickly as possible and prepare to support Europe. 

 

Putin can be put back in his cage if we give up on tired ideologies and work to become energy independent again, especially from Russia and by we, I mean the west.

IMO there is almost no world in which Ukraine could hold off Russia. Ukraine has no Air Force left (out of the minuscule outdated one they began with), they have no navy, and they don’t even have the numbers. It would be the largest military upset in history. If you compare it to anything, maybe Vietnam and their victory. But they had a massive territory advantage and a near unlimited supply of manpower. Ukraine has neither of these. To win this war Ukraine would need weapons, likely more than NATO could even ship in. They would need tanks, which they wouldn’t be trained to operate. And they would need planes, which they aren’t trained to fly and no longer control the airfields to fly out of. It’s a dire situation to say the least. 

[Demongyz]

1 minute ago, PetermansRedemption said:

IMO there is almost no world in which Ukraine could hold off Russia. Ukraine has no Air Force left (out of the minuscule outdated one they began with), they have no navy, and they don’t even have the numbers. It would be the largest military upset in history. If you compare it to anything, maybe Vietnam and their victory. But they had a massive territory advantage and a near unlimited supply of manpower. Ukraine has neither of these. To win this war Ukraine would need weapons, likely more than NATO could even ship in. They would need tanks, which they wouldn’t be trained to operate. And they would need planes, which they aren’t trained to fly and no longer control the airfields to fly out of. It’s a dire situation to say the least. 

I agree with you however I have seen Afghanistan happen, and in time, Ukraine could come back out on top, but that is a long shot for sure.

The west have to speed up the clock and slow it down at the same time and that's not something that can be done.  I think the bed has been made at this point and there isn't much hope.