All_Pro_Bills Posted September 24 Posted September 24 52 minutes ago, wnyguy said: It is known that the US has given Ukraine billions of dollars and have done so with no one overseeing how or where it is being spent. If you can show me a breakdown of how much money was spent and what it was specifically spent on then please do. You can't. The usual characters adapt at denying reality that through some delusion believe our government is run by Boy Scouts with an unimpeachable commitment to truth and democracy will certainly disagree, but they can't allow an audit that will show government officials and oligarchs are skimming billions/millions, as US official look the other way, in exchange for sending their soldiers to their deaths to engage their country in a US/NATO proxy war which cannot be won at this point. 1 1
Starr-Bills Posted September 24 Posted September 24 6 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said: The usual characters adapt at denying reality that through some delusion believe our government is run by Boy Scouts with an unimpeachable commitment to truth and democracy will certainly disagree, but they can't allow an audit that will show government officials and oligarchs are skimming billions/millions, as US official look the other way, in exchange for sending their soldiers to their deaths to engage their country in a US/NATO proxy war which cannot be won at this point. Okay know it all you sound like this guy. 1. We are not in a war. 2. An allie (who we signed a treaty with to protect them was invaded). 3. The war can’t be won which is why Russia is spending all this money and effort to erode support in the west. Sure, makes sense. 4. Most of the money “going to Ukraine” is either being spend in the us to replace old equipment with new equipment OR going directly to US companies (you know like in Scranton) to make weapons sent to Ukraine. Your mealy mouthed comments disparaging us government employees and parroting false claims of caring about Ukrainians lives while simultaneously saying they should just let the Russians kill, rape and pillage part of their country and the people who live there is sick. also I bet you were fine with the 20 years the US spend $300,000,000 a day in Iraq killing hundreds of thousand of civilians in that time. want the war ended, give Ukraine the weapons to do the job, otherwise you’re just another useful idiot for Putin.
All_Pro_Bills Posted September 24 Posted September 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, Starr-Bills said: Okay know it all you sound like this guy. 1. We are not in a war. 2. An allie (who we signed a treaty with to protect them was invaded). 3. The war can’t be won which is why Russia is spending all this money and effort to erode support in the west. Sure, makes sense. 4. Most of the money “going to Ukraine” is either being spend in the us to replace old equipment with new equipment OR going directly to US companies (you know like in Scranton) to make weapons sent to Ukraine. Your mealy mouthed comments disparaging us government employees and parroting false claims of caring about Ukrainians lives while simultaneously saying they should just let the Russians kill, rape and pillage part of their country and the people who live there is sick. also I bet you were fine with the 20 years the US spend $300,000,000 a day in Iraq killing hundreds of thousand of civilians in that time. want the war ended, give Ukraine the weapons to do the job, otherwise you’re just another useful idiot for Putin. We didn't sign a treaty with Ukraine. Treaties require Congressional votes and approval. When did Congress pass this? Any agreement is technically is devoid of constitutionally required consent. The eroded support in the west is not the result of foriegn influence. Citizens see their needs de-prioritized to fund the war and in Europe the economies of most countries have suffered from sanctions more than Russia. The war is unpopular with the voters but their leaders don't care. What is that thing,? Oh yeah, democracy What's it caled when the government ignores the will of the people? I've heard the argument the funding supports US defense industry. But the arrangement still leaves the taxpayers with the bill. If you want to supply arms where me and other taxpayers don't get stuck with the tab I have no objection. Or maybe spend the money on something productive? If you"re concerned about raping and pillaging maybe shut our border with Mexico first? Clean up your own house first. The left is fickle. They think nobody else but them are able to arrive at any conclusion that disagrees with them through any other means than getting packaged and provided conclusions from somewhere else. Believe it or not I do my own thinking. You might want to consider doing some too. Whether my conclusions agree or disagree with one side or the other is immaterial to the goal of objectivity. I realize liberal have no use for that view. Edited September 24 by All_Pro_Bills 1
Starr-Bills Posted September 24 Posted September 24 47 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: We didn't sign a treaty with Ukraine. Treaties require Congressional votes and approval. When did Congress pass this? Any agreement is technically is devoid of constitutionally required consent. The eroded support in the west is not the result of foriegn influence. Citizens see their needs de-prioritized to fund the war and in Europe the economies of most countries have suffered from sanctions more than Russia. The war is unpopular with the voters but their leaders don't care. What is that thing,? Oh yeah, democracy What's it caled when the government ignores the will of the people? I've heard the argument the funding supports US defense industry. But the arrangement still leaves the taxpayers with the bill. If you want to supply arms where me and other taxpayers don't get stuck with the tab I have no objection. Or maybe spend the money on something productive? If you"re concerned about raping and pillaging maybe shut our border with Mexico first? Clean up your own house first. The left is fickle. They think nobody else but them are able to arrive at any conclusion that disagrees with them through any other means than getting packaged and provided conclusions from somewhere else. Believe it or not I do my own thinking. You might want to consider doing some too. Whether my conclusions agree or disagree with one side or the other is immaterial to the goal of objectivity. I realize liberal have no use for that view. Fine "Security Assurance" - https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/ukraine-nuclear-weapons-and-security-assurances-glance Like most conservatives you seem to be bad at both google and math (check the economic numbers for the last 50 years of presidents), But Why let numbers or facts get in the way of your opinions. Just. a few of the results, some from Pew, the Eu and others. In general people support helping Ukraine, but oddly 31% are agains (which lines up nicely with the felons support - he's never been over 47% approval & if we add non-voters his support falls to the mid 30's) Additionally It is true that Russia is attacking the west and has been for over a decade (murders, fires, bombing, election interference (Brexit, 2016/20/24, Modolva, etc.) https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articles/2024/04/26/russias-hybrid-war-against-the-west/index.html Support for Ukraine. Plenary Insights – September 2024 https://www.europarl.europa.eu/at-your-service/en/be-heard/eurobarometer/plenary-insights-september-2024 UMD Critical Issues Poll: Public Support for Ukraine Jumps https://today.umd.edu/umd-critical-issues-poll-public-support-for-ukraine-jumps While there has been a four percentage-point decline since October 2023 in the number who said that spending is “about the right level,” there are also differences between Democrats and Republicans on funding for the conflict. Thirty-nine percent of Democratic respondents said that the current funding is appropriate compared to 15% of Republicans in the latest poll. Republican respondents far outnumber the Democratic respondents who said the spending was too much, 52% versus 16%. Large shares of both Republicans and Democrats sympathize more with Ukraine than with Russia, 58% and 76%, respectively. Just 2% of respondents said they sympathize more with Russia. “The increase in the number of Republicans who want the U.S. to support Ukraine ‘for as long as it takes’ suggests that the starting point for Republicans, which is far more sympathetic to Ukraine than to Russia, has limited the impact of the political campaign on this issue,” added Telhami. Americans Continue to Support Military and Economic Aid to Ukraine https://globalaffairs.org/research/public-opinion-survey/americans-continue-support-military-and-economic-aid-ukraine Six in 10 Americans favor providing both economic assistance to Ukraine and sending additional arms and military supplies to the Ukrainian government (58% each). 1. Views of Ukraine and U.S. involvement with the Russia-Ukraine war https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/05/08/views-of-ukraine-and-u-s-involvement-with-the-russia-ukraine-war/ Views of U.S. support to Ukraine About a third of Americans (31%) say the U.S. is providing too much support to Ukraine. Roughly equal shares of U.S. adults say the U.S. is providing about the right amount (25%) or not enough support (24%) to Ukraine, while 18% say they are not sure. More Americans Say U.S. Is Not Helping Ukraine Enough https://news.gallup.com/poll/643601/americans-say-not-helping-ukraine-enough.aspx Majority Still Favors Supporting Ukraine in Reclaiming Territory Fifty-five percent of Americans think the U.S. should continue to support Ukraine in reclaiming its territory, even if that requires prolonged involvement, rather than ending the conflict as quickly as possible, even if that means ceding territory to Russia (43%). These findings are unchanged from the previous readings in October. However, the percentage of Americans who now favor continuing the fight to win back Ukraine’s territory is lower than the 62% to 66% who preferred that approach between August 2022 and June 2023. So several reasons IMHO on why support has cooled. people generally get tired of hearing about the same thing over time, Mis/dis information about the money being spent (both relatively how much and what/who it is actually being spent on. Fickle - changing frequently, especially as regards one's loyalties, interests, or affection. This seems more like the definition of MAGA conservatives changing loyalties like the felons hair in the wind.
L Ron Burgundy Posted September 24 Posted September 24 9 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said: The usual characters adapt at denying reality that through some delusion believe our government is run by Boy Scouts with an unimpeachable commitment to truth and democracy will certainly disagree, but they can't allow an audit that will show government officials and oligarchs are skimming billions/millions, as US official look the other way, in exchange for sending their soldiers to their deaths to engage their country in a US/NATO proxy war which cannot be won at this point. You find 1 shred of proof of mismanaged funds yet? Keep jumping on those fake stories. Headlines gooooood.. information within baaaaad. 1
Coffeesforclosers Posted September 25 Posted September 25 (edited) Russia was crushed by Japan in 1905, by Germany and Austria in 1917, and got thrashed in Afghanistan in 1988. Each time it lost, Russia was pitched in domestic turmoil that it barely survived (1905), suffered a regime collapse then a civil war (1917-1920), or simply fell apart (1988-1990). When Russia fights wars, it wins or it implodes. But for some reason, we're only supposed to care about when they win? Why are we leaving out all the nuance? Edited September 25 by Coffeesforclosers 2
All_Pro_Bills Posted September 25 Posted September 25 (edited) 13 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said: You find 1 shred of proof of mismanaged funds yet? Keep jumping on those fake stories. Headlines gooooood.. information within baaaaad. I could ask you to find one shred of proof there isn't any mismanagement? What do you want me to do? Get on a plane and show up in Kyiv and announce I'm going to perform an audit on all the US aid they've received? Really! The flaw in your thinking is the need for complete information before drawing any rational or objective conclusions. The inability or unwillingness to extrapolate conclusions with incomplete information to fill in the blanks and produce a most likely conclusion. I'm basing my view on the nature of the arrangement. Lots of money, $200 Billion. No accountability for how the funds are spent or dispersed. Parties resisting any audit. Historical corruption in Ukraine. A lot of the money is for paying government employees in Ukraine, not weapons. Demonstrated incompetence of the US administration. So we're sending billions of dollars to a country that is historically known for a high level of corruption without any audit or checks and balance in how the money is spent or distributed and you believe the odds favor everything is on the up-and-up? That's not a smart conclusion and its a bad bet. Edited September 25 by All_Pro_Bills 1 1
Coffeesforclosers Posted September 25 Posted September 25 So instead, we wager on the country that: Was absolute monarchy until 1917, then a parliamentary democracy until 1918, then a communist dictatorship until 1991, then a kleptocracy until 2000, and when it became an oligarchy until the present day? Genius reasoning! Nuanced thinking! Where do I sign up!
wnyguy Posted September 25 Posted September 25 2 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said: So instead, we wager on the country that: Was absolute monarchy until 1917, then a parliamentary democracy until 1918, then a communist dictatorship until 1991, then a kleptocracy until 2000, and when it became an oligarchy until the present day? Genius reasoning! Nuanced thinking! Where do I sign up! Just because some of us are wondering where the hell all this money is going does not mean we support Russia. Why is that so hard to understand? The money being sent, unfettered and unchecked, comes from my pocket, your pocket. If we were able to see if this money was actually being used to help the Ukrainian effort then there would be much less objection to it. Why wouldn't you want to know where the billions of dollars is being spent? I don't get it. 1
All_Pro_Bills Posted September 25 Posted September 25 (edited) 26 minutes ago, wnyguy said: Just because some of us are wondering where the hell all this money is going does not mean we support Russia. Why is that so hard to understand? The money being sent, unfettered and unchecked, comes from my pocket, your pocket. If we were able to see if this money was actually being used to help the Ukrainian effort then there would be much less objection to it. Why wouldn't you want to know where the billions of dollars is being spent? I don't get it. I don't get it either. Its not like the US treasury has a spare $200 Billion laying around collecting dust just waiting for some needy cause. That money is borrowed, committing future Americans to a stream of principal and interest payment along with de-prioritizing other potential uses of those borrowed funds. If you're old enough to remember anything about the Vietnam era you might be familiar with the slogan "my country, right or wrong". Its was the slogan used by war supporters against anyone that disagreed with US government policy and questioned the merits of the war. Its the older brother of the current you're "Putin's useful idiot" if you question anything about the conflict slogan being peddled by today's crop of government advocates and supporters of the current policy. There was also the "domino theory" that if Vietnam fell then all of Southeast Asia would be under communism. That's consistent with the if Russia takes Ukraine then all of Europe will follow. If the war hawks are one thing its consistent over time in their messaging although they're not very creative. And consistently wrong too. Ultimately, to them being right is not important. Just as it was in the 1960's it is today. Its a false premise to charge that anyone that objects to or questions US government policy is siding or aiding the enemies cause. What they label as support for the enemy is plain old critical and logical thinking to produce objective conclusions. The idea anyone would try and want to understand the enemies positions, objectives, and goals is an unimaginable and inconceivable concept to the liberal war supporters. The thinking is we're right, you're wrong why should I care what you think? What it comes down to is we're talking about two different things. The war advocates are not interested in objective criticism, ideas, or conclusions. They just look at the situation from one side and ignore everything else. Slightly different from the 60's slogan but more or less "my government, right or wrong". Edited September 25 by All_Pro_Bills 1
Coffeesforclosers Posted September 25 Posted September 25 (edited) 1 hour ago, wnyguy said: Just because some of us are wondering where the hell all this money is going does not mean we support Russia. Why is that so hard to understand? The money being sent, unfettered and unchecked, comes from my pocket, your pocket. If we were able to see if this money was actually being used to help the Ukrainian effort then there would be much less objection to it. Why wouldn't you want to know where the billions of dollars is being spent? I don't get it. Because they do not trust the motives of the overseers. We live in a country that is itself rife with corruption and mismanagement. Where every politician is more or less for sale since Citizens United. Both parties explode our deficits and waste our money. What they disagree are the reasons why they explode our deficits, and why their reasons are justified but the other guys aren't. Nobody actually gives a ***** about corruption because it's too busy making them rich. So any politician that's screaming about corruption and oversight is basically full if *****. Which is why they think it's all just smoke and mirrors for other agendas, whatever those are. If Joe Biden told Rand Paul that $20 billion in Ukraine aid was being invested in weapons production that would bring jobs to Kentucky, he'd paint his face Blue and Yellow the next day. Edited September 25 by Coffeesforclosers 1
L Ron Burgundy Posted September 25 Posted September 25 3 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said: I could ask you to find one shred of proof there isn't any mismanagement? What do you want me to do? Get on a plane and show up in Kyiv and announce I'm going to perform an audit on all the US aid they've received? Really! The flaw in your thinking is the need for complete information before drawing any rational or objective conclusions. The inability or unwillingness to extrapolate conclusions with incomplete information to fill in the blanks and produce a most likely conclusion. I'm basing my view on the nature of the arrangement. Lots of money, $200 Billion. No accountability for how the funds are spent or dispersed. Parties resisting any audit. Historical corruption in Ukraine. A lot of the money is for paying government employees in Ukraine, not weapons. Demonstrated incompetence of the US administration. So we're sending billions of dollars to a country that is historically known for a high level of corruption without any audit or checks and balance in how the money is spent or distributed and you believe the odds favor everything is on the up-and-up? That's not a smart conclusion and its a bad bet. So this is the answer you want to go with? You get fooled with a completely misleading article (not that you'll admit that) and you double down? You're making the assertion funds are being mismanaged, burden of proof is on you champ. With this claim being thrown about i'd think there'd be a journalist somewhere that found proof. No? How the hell do you know there's no accountability on how the funds are spent? Because some anti Ukraine republicans made it a talking point and you happen to think it sounds good? I'd be fine with getting someone to oversee this if it's necessary, I'm pretty sure everyone would be. You truly are an amazing person. You literally don't need proof to believe anything. You are the most easily manipulated type of tool for republicans. Sad.
wnyguy Posted September 25 Posted September 25 (edited) 11 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said: So this is the answer you want to go with? You get fooled with a completely misleading article (not that you'll admit that) and you double down? You're making the assertion funds are being mismanaged, burden of proof is on you champ. With this claim being thrown about i'd think there'd be a journalist somewhere that found proof. No? How the hell do you know there's no accountability on how the funds are spent? Because some anti Ukraine republicans made it a talking point and you happen to think it sounds good? I'd be fine with getting someone to oversee this if it's necessary, I'm pretty sure everyone would be. You truly are an amazing person. You literally don't need proof to believe anything. You are the most easily manipulated type of tool for republicans. Sad. So you're saying that an audit exists on how this money is spent? Please provide a link, I'd love to see it. 14 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: Because they do not trust the motives of the overseers. We live in a country that is itself rife with corruption and mismanagement. Where every politician is more or less for sale since Citizens United. Both parties explode our deficits and waste our money. What they disagree are the reasons why they explode our deficits, and why their reasons are justified but the other guys aren't. Nobody actually gives a ***** about corruption because it's too busy making them rich. So any politician that's screaming about corruption and oversight is basically full if *****. Which is why they think it's all just smoke and mirrors for other agendas, whatever those are. If Joe Biden told Rand Paul that $20 billion in Ukraine aid was being invested in weapons production that would bring jobs to Kentucky, he'd paint his face Blue and Yellow the next day. And you are saying it's all corrupt anyway so why bother? Edited September 25 by wnyguy
All_Pro_Bills Posted September 25 Posted September 25 (edited) 2 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said: So this is the answer you want to go with? You get fooled with a completely misleading article (not that you'll admit that) and you double down? You're making the assertion funds are being mismanaged, burden of proof is on you champ. With this claim being thrown about i'd think there'd be a journalist somewhere that found proof. No? How the hell do you know there's no accountability on how the funds are spent? Because some anti Ukraine republicans made it a talking point and you happen to think it sounds good? I'd be fine with getting someone to oversee this if it's necessary, I'm pretty sure everyone would be. You truly are an amazing person. You literally don't need proof to believe anything. You are the most easily manipulated type of tool for republicans. Sad. If there is accountability on how the money is spent its on a need to know basis and nobody is going to tell you or me if there's any funny business. So there's no accountability. The doctrine of government avoiding transparency at all costs in play. And I'm not sure what misleading article you are claiming I've read that is forming my view. I'm relying on a known historical level of high corruption when it comes to Ukraine and the system of oligarchs. You want to assume the Russians are corrupt and the Ukrainians are not but its basically the same system sprung from the former Soviet Union. I think they both are corrupt. Its not an unreasonable assumption to conclude there is corruption and some of the funds are disappearing or not getting to the specific destination intended. You want to play Pollyanna and believe all is good until somebody confesses. Your argument is always pretty consistent. I am influenced by outside forces that provide me with my views and misinformation that produce faulty or defective conclusions and positions while you are a much smarter free and independent thinker armed with accurate and reliable facts from accurate and reliable sources to always know the truth and arrive at correct conclusions. My view of all of that are you're fooling yourself and instead are a victim of gaslighted and a steady diet of BS that's got you, and others here, believing pretty much anything the government wants to tell you. Edited September 25 by All_Pro_Bills
L Ron Burgundy Posted September 25 Posted September 25 2 hours ago, wnyguy said: So you're saying that an audit exists on how this money is spent? Please provide a link, I'd love to see it. Why? So you can take it right to Vlad and show them how to prep for upcoming battles? No thank you sir. I trust you Trumpanzees as far as i can throw you, and from what I see most of y'all are fat.
L Ron Burgundy Posted September 25 Posted September 25 48 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: If there is accountability on how the money is spent its on a need to know basis and nobody is going to tell you or me if there's any funny business. So there's no accountability. The doctrine of government avoiding transparency at all costs in play. And I'm not sure what misleading article you are claiming I've read that is forming my view. I'm relying on a known historical level of high corruption when it comes to Ukraine and the system of oligarchs. You want to assume the Russians are corrupt and the Ukrainians are not but its basically the same system sprung from the former Soviet Union. I think they both are corrupt. Its not an unreasonable assumption to conclude there is corruption and some of the funds are disappearing or not getting to the specific destination intended. You want to play Pollyanna and believe all is good until somebody confesses. Your argument is always pretty consistent. I am influenced by outside forces that provide me with my views and misinformation that produce faulty or defective conclusions and positions while you are a much smarter free and independent thinker armed with accurate and reliable facts from accurate and reliable sources to always know the truth and arrive at correct conclusions. My view of all of that are you're fooling yourself and instead are a victim of gaslighted and a steady diet of BS that's got you, and others here, believing pretty much anything the government wants to tell you. I've said numerous times Ukraine is corrupt. Very much so. But Ukrainians also know with people fighting and dying if they get caught siphoning money or arms to sell later, they are dead or worse. The usual corruption isn't going to apply here, though of course that doesn't mean you give them the chance to find out. You don't think our people know Ukraine has corruption problems by the way? Keep in mind, the vast majority of what we're giving them is ammo/weapons, not straight money. You, and all the anti Ukraine right wing, have been influenced by Russian propaganda bought by daddy Vlady. We've suspected this for some time but it's now been proven. I'm sure you're doing your best to ignore the fact that right wing influencers were paid by Russia but....too bad, they got caught. I'm also sure you don't care, you live in a fantasy world free from facts so why would you? Your view was very likely directly influenced from some of these bought and paid for Russian tools. Rather than examine these facts you will duck, dodge, and deflect. Facts make you uncomfortable because they often derail your conspiracy driven perspective. 1 1
Coffeesforclosers Posted September 26 Posted September 26 7 hours ago, wnyguy said: And you are saying it's all corrupt anyway so why bother? Of course not. I can see a country that was attacked, by surprise, by an enemy four or five times as large. That same enemy, at the time, had a top 5 army in the world, and was sitting on a mountain of surplus weapons built up over 50 years of communism. They've been fighting for almost three years now, and are trading out between 2 or 3 to 1 in men, and 3 or 4 to 1 in vehicles. Common sense tells me this wouldn't be possible unless. 1. They believed in their cause. 2. Their enemy is criminally stupid when it comes to military affairs. And it absolutely wouldn't be possible if they were spending...what was the claim... 70% of our aid on vacations, luxury cars, and golden toilet seats or whatever. Especially since their most economically productive regions are either occupied, covered in minefields or shelled to bits. This is just common sense. Sure, pressure the ***** out of the Ukrainians to get their house in order. We've got all sorts of leverage. But I have zero faith in pots lecturing kettles about their color black, especially when the results are obvious and the expense is paltry compared to what we waste everywhere else. 2
Joe Ferguson forever Posted September 26 Posted September 26 On 9/24/2024 at 5:50 PM, All_Pro_Bills said: The eroded support in the west is not the result of foriegn influence. Citizens see their needs de-prioritized to fund the war and in Europe the economies of most countries have suffered from sanctions more than Russia. The war is unpopular with the voters but their leaders don't care. What is that thing,? Oh yeah, democracy What's it caled when the government ignores the will of the people? The will of the people is continued support for Ukraine https://www.brookings.edu/articles/more-americans-want-the-us-to-stay-the-course-in-ukraine-as-long-as-it-takes/?b=1
wnyguy Posted September 26 Posted September 26 20 hours ago, L Ron Burgundy said: Why? So you can take it right to Vlad and show them how to prep for upcoming battles? No thank you sir. I trust you Trumpanzees as far as i can throw you, and from what I see most of y'all are fat. I'm not fat, I'm big boned is all. 1
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