Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Starr-Bills]

Bleed the Russians white, 10 F-16s (and a new patriot) create local air superiority, total misdirection on recruiting/troop strength and the general who lead the Kharkiv offensive in charge. The next 72 hours are going to be dynamic.

 

there is nothing left to stop the Ukrainians, Russia is serious trouble.  
 

 

[Biden is Mentally Fit]

11 minutes ago, Starr-Bills said:

there is nothing left to stop the Ukrainians, Russia is serious trouble.  

Would be very nice if this is true but I think we should keep this handy as a measuring stick for your future projections. 

[sherpa]

Ten F-16's  and a few Patriot batteries in no way provide "air superiority." 
 

[Starr-Bills]

11 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Ten F-16's  and a few Patriot batteries in no way provide "air superiority." 
 

You missed the word “local”  we’re talking about 100/200 km wide area keeps the su-34’s and their glide bombs away, and them once the UAF is past the trenches they can keep mobile and negate the glide bombs/exploit the time it take for the RUAF to target.  This is the nato mobile fight that RU can’t handle. 

[sherpa]

9 minutes ago, Starr-Bills said:

You missed the word “local”  we’re talking about 100/200 km wide area keeps the su-34’s and their glide bombs away, and them once the UAF is past the trenches they can keep mobile and negate the glide bombs/exploit the time it take for the RUAF to target.  This is the nato mobile fight that RU can’t handle. 

 

I didn't miss it.

I don't miss things.

The F-16's do not provide air superiority.

 

The only thing that gives them an edge is the total ineptness of the Russian Air Force.

[Starr-Bills]

10 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

I didn't miss it.

I don't miss things.

The F-16's do not provide air superiority.

 

The only thing that gives them an edge is the total ineptness of the Russian Air Force.

So you didn’t miss leaving it out of your comment then.
 

Okay Francis.

 

The F-16’s are equipped with 4 AIM 120’s (c or d) which is an air to air missile. Range 80-120 km. They also have a vastly improved radar over the migs and sus that they have been flying. Specifically to take on ru air. And yes the Russian airforce are inept, but they were able to bomb the ***** out of Ukraine. The 16’s will, in combination with a patriots, be more than able to push the Russian air power out of the immediate area of the advance.
 

but you’re a fighter pilot or a patriot battery commander and I’m wrong. Cool.

Edited August 7 by Starr-Bills

[sherpa]

14 minutes ago, Starr-Bills said:

 

but your a fighter pilot or a patriot battery commander and I’m wrong. Cool.

 

Yes to the first premise.

Not the second, though I have flown against it's earlier derivatives, and am quite familiar with it.

I am also very familiar with Amraam and Russian derivatives.

Edited August 7 by sherpa

[B-Man]

1 hour ago, Starr-Bills said:

Bleed the Russians white,

 

 

Meanwhile the Ukrainian people bleed too.

 

 

[Starr-Bills]

57 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Meanwhile the Ukrainian people bleed too.

 

 

this is a bad take. 

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Meanwhile the Ukrainian people bleed too.

 

 

Abd you care about that....sure 

[Tiberius]

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

11 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

So if Trump wins the election what do all these Trump cannot be allowed to win chaps plan on doing? 

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

So if Trump wins the election what do all these Trump cannot be allowed to win chaps plan on doing? 

With an executive who has no fear of prosecution, that's a good question. Trump will probably go after them one way or another. 

[Tiberius]

---

 

This is a good open source report on the F-16's impact--or lack thereof--in Ukraine 

 

https://www.businessinsider.com/missiles-on-ukraines-f-16s-hint-at-missions-against-russia-2024-8

 

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

14 hours ago, Starr-Bills said:

So you didn’t miss leaving it out of your comment then.
 

Okay Francis.

 

The F-16’s are equipped with 4 AIM 120’s (c or d) which is an air to air missile. Range 80-120 km. They also have a vastly improved radar over the migs and sus that they have been flying. Specifically to take on ru air. And yes the Russian airforce are inept, but they were able to bomb the ***** out of Ukraine. The 16’s will, in combination with a patriots, be more than able to push the Russian air power out of the immediate area of the advance.
 

but you’re a fighter pilot or a patriot battery commander and I’m wrong. Cool.

Sherpa has been forthcoming on his experience, consistently over time, and over several different topics on the main board and ppp.  
 

I may have missed your background if you shared, do you have military training, background in leadership/planning?  
 

 

[Tiberius]

 

 

This general claims it will only take four months to train Ukrainian pilots to fly F-16's 

 

 

 

[Starr-Bills]

1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Sherpa has been forthcoming on his experience, consistently over time, and over several different topics on the main board and ppp.  
 

I may have missed your background if you shared, do you have military training, background in leadership/planning?  
 

 

I’ve worked in advertising and marketing for 5 of the 6 major media corps. I have presented to the highest levels on their strategy and direction. I was on the leadership team of a health care start up sponsored by a national insurer and one of these media companies.  
 

I have also read military history, and war gamed for 40+ years. Not video gamed, war gamed like planing the longest day in high school. Personally I decided that military service was too dangerous in the modern battle field (in the late 80’s) to serve. I think the experience in Ukraine bears this out. 

 

i keep current on things, and have friend who have worked at RAND. I have friend who flew 15s (too boring) and jolly green giants for the airforce search and rescue. My neighbor a marine Lt Col retired thought me how to shoot.

 

expert no, knowledgeable yes. Also I think you will notice I am persuadable with evidence and willing to laugh at myself is I make a typo (‘cause I really just can’t spell, still).
 

no I have not read 25,000 (guess) posts to know who all the players are and what their resume is. My impression is Sherpa is more than capable in making his points and ‘defending’ himself. 
 

Appreciate his experience, I’m new (which he which he divined to his credit) he could have dropped in a “as a former fighter pilot you’re using air superiority wrong. And technically he is correct F-16s are multi role fighters and F15/F22/Su27-35 are “air superiority” fighters. It’s fine he’s directly and can’t blame him for dropping in with the sun behind him. 
 

additionally I have been following the Russian invasion of Ukraine daily for the last 2 1/2+ years. News, open source, lectures etc. expert maybe not but informed. 
 

why? Because I believe this is an existential struggle between liberal democracy (and to an extent US hegemony) vs. authoritarian/ multinational crime states.  Is the US perfect, nope, but the alternative is much much worse. I prefer being able to vote, to influence the direction my country (and the world) vs the tech bros or the Russian mob or the Chinese communist party. 
 

finally I also believe is civilian leadership of the military, this is not starship troopers or Sparta.  

Edited August 8 by Starr-Bills
Missed the end of a sentence.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

46 minutes ago, Starr-Bills said:

I’ve worked in advertising and marketing for 5 of the 6 major media corps. I have presented to the highest levels on their strategy and direction. I was on the leadership team of a health care start up sponsored by a national insurer and one of these media companies.  
 

I have also read military history, and war gamed for 40+ years. Not video gamed, war gamed like planing the longest day in high school. Personally I decided that military service was too dangerous in the modern battle field (in the late 80’s) to serve. I think the experience in Ukraine bears this out. 

 

i keep current on things, and have friend who have worked at RAND. I have friend who flew 15s (too boring) and jolly green giants for the airforce search and rescue. My neighbor a marine Lt Col retired thought me how to shoot.

 

expert no, knowledgeable yes. Also I think you will notice I am persuadable with evidence and willing to laugh at myself is I make a typo (‘cause I really just can’t spell, still).
 

no I have not read 25,000 (guess) posts to know who all the players are and what their resume is. My impression is Sherpa is more than capable in making his points and ‘defending’ himself. 
 

Appreciate his experience, I’m new (which he which he divined to his credit) he could have dropped in a “as a former fighter pilot you’re using air superiority wrong. And technically he is correct F-16s are multi role fighters and F15/F22/Su27-35 are “air superiority” fighters. It’s fine he’s directly and can’t blame him for dropping in with the sun behind him. 
 

additionally I have been following the Russian invasion of Ukraine daily for the last 2 1/2+ years. News, open source, lectures etc. expert maybe not but informed. 
 

why? Because I believe this is an existential struggle between liberal democracy (and to an extent US hegemony) vs. authoritarian/ multinational crime states.  Is the US perfect, nope, but the alternative is much much worse. I prefer being able to vote, to influence the direction my country (and the world) vs the tech bros or the Russian mob or the Chinese communist party. 
 

finally I also believe is civilian leadership of the military, this is not starship troopers or Sparta.  

My post wasn't intended to imply you didn't have bona fide credentials, I was simply asking.  I wasn't defending Sherpa, I was simply pointing out that he's shared his experience/experiences over time.  

 

One of the reasons I frequent the board is to get other perspectives, and often those perspectives are unvarnished and removed from the pesky civility of everyday life.  That can be painful if one is a sensitive soul, feelings can get hurt, or posts misinterpreted.   I don't think you fit into that category, it's just a general observation.  

 

I have no military training, no deep understanding of military capability or technological advances, nor much to offer on the obviously complicated relationship between citizens of Ukraine and citizens of Russia.   I do, I believe, have a pretty decent understanding of human nature and have come to realize that when our nation's leaders suggest "Country X is good!", "Country Y is bad!",  we may not be getting the full, accurate story.   

 

Thanks for the response.  At first blush, my thought is that the experience you've outlined here loosely translates to 'informed in a manner similar to the way people on the main board offer commentary about  players, schemes, coaches and GMs'.  That's not a knock, just an observation--but your commitment to learning what you can, and the time invested is admirable.   I haven't done that, likely won't anytime soon, and in that regard, Star > Leh-nerd. 

 

True, I know how to spell 'patriot', but how many times is that going to carry the day in a debate?  

 

 

[sherpa]

2 hours ago, Starr-Bills said:

I’ve worked in advertising and marketing for 5 of the 6 major media corps. I have presented to the highest levels on their strategy and direction. I was on the leadership team of a health care start up sponsored by a national insurer and one of these media companies.  
 

I have also read military history, and war gamed for 40+ years. Not video gamed, war gamed like planing the longest day in high school. 

 

This isn't a competition.

I have no problem with opposing views.

 

What I do comment on is when people express views, specifically suggesting political influence without regard or knowledge, on items I am familiar with. 

 

I don't enjoy look at me stuff. I had been here for ten years before ever mentioning my experience in this, and only did so when someone here accused me of being a coward.

I casually mentioned that I had over 300 carrier landings, and while that doesn't mark anything, it does kind of suggest you are not a "coward."

 

I am a topgun grnduate and served as an adversary instructor, teaching US Navy, Air Force pilots air combat, specifically against Russian tactics.

 

My issue with this is that an airplane, the F-16 in this case, is not the determining factor.

The links provided, always sourced by people who didn't do this for a living, erroneously place aircraft capability as the determining factor, and that is nonsense.

It is always about training, coordination and mutual contribution that determines the outcome.

 

The F-16 is a great airplane. I have fought many engagements against it. Lethal when flown in the right environment. 

 

The claim that it can be flown well after four months of training is simply not true.

 

If it flies within/under the Russian SAM defenses, it will not go well.

 

If it fights against Russian fighters that are outside that protection, it could go very well, with AMRAAM.

 

Anyway, the post is long enough, but I want to bring up one example, from my experience.

 

When the Saudis bought the F-15, they opted to contract for training against US adversaries.

I did that.

They were totally useless. Total waste of time.

THE F-15 is a tremendous air superiority platform, totally wasted on them. 

 

Anyway, the bottom line assessment of the Ukraine thing brings one point home, without doubt.

The Russian Air Force, with all it's advanced equipment, has been exposed as a failure.

Using a small number of F-16's might help, but the battle is on the ground for now.

 

If the Ukrainians were able to get Russian ground forces outside of their SAM protection umbrella, using the F-16 in an air-ground mode would be an extremely important development, because it will slaughter Russian ground troops.

 

[Starr-Bills]

@leh-nerd skin-erd & @sherpa thanks both of you for taking the time to read and thoughtfully respond to my post. You both make good points. I plan too respond, but as you can see below, lots of developments happening real time in Ukraine.