Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tommy Callahan]

5 minutes ago, cle23 said:

 

If someone punches you, do you just stand there and take it?  Do you simply give in, and continue to get hit until you give you attacker whatever they are after?  Or do you hit back? 

 

To blame Ukraine for "escalation" as Russia bombs most of their country and tries take large chunks of it, all while committing countless war crimes, is insanely stupid.  Russia, for decades, has been able to bully the entire region and get away with it.  The rest of the world finally got tired of the bully and is trying to help out.  Doesn't make Russia the victim all of a sudden.

Its factual. you're making an emotional reply that kind of shows you don't have facts to prove it.

 

And yeah, in the street you punch back till there isn't a threat. 

 

Much of the world knows color Rev evolutions including the Euromaidan are Western backed and a way to change regimes without a war.  it's kind of our MO.  Kissinger was a fan (Pinochet), and Hillary learned from her. taught Nolan to boot. 

 

you are aware that Russia didn't attack any Kiev Infrastructure or government installations (the Ukrainian leader was still living in their version of the white house) till Ukraine escalated by drone attacking the Kremlin.  then Russia came back with Super Sonics that destroyed the patriot batteries we gave them and the people running them.

 

When did it start, when will it end.

 

how did it start, how will it end?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

10 minutes ago, cle23 said:

 

If someone punches you, do you just stand there and take it?  Do you simply give in, and continue to get hit until you give you attacker whatever they are after?  Or do you hit back? 

 

To blame Ukraine for "escalation" as Russia bombs most of their country and tries take large chunks of it, all while committing countless war crimes, is insanely stupid.  Russia, for decades, has been able to bully the entire region and get away with it.  The rest of the world finally got tired of the bully and is trying to help out.  Doesn't make Russia the victim all of a sudden.

If you noticed the anti war crowd has slowly shifted to pro Russia.

 

Oh those poor ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine!!!!  Never mind Putin paid them to first stir trouble then attempt to revolt.

 

These people are brainwashed by idiotic right wing talking heads whose only goal is to crap on every single decision made by dems.  Even when it contradicts longstanding conservative ideals.

[cle23]

1 minute ago, Tommy Callahan said:

Its factual. you're making an emotional reply that kind of shows you don't have facts to prove it.

 

And yeah, in the street you punch back till there isn't a threat. 

 

Much of the world knows color Rev evolutions including the Euromaidan are Western backed and a way to change regimes without a war.  it's kind of our MO.  Kissinger was a fan (Pinochet), and Hillary learned from her. taught Nolan to boot. 

 

you are aware that Russia didn't attack any Kiev Infrastructure or government installations (the Ukrainian leader was still living in their version of the white house) till Ukraine escalated by drone attacking the Kremlin.  then Russia came back with Super Sonics that destroyed the patriot batteries we gave them and the people running them.

 

When did it start, when will it end.

 

how did it start, how will it end?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Counterattacking is not escalating.  And who cares about government facilities?  Russia is targeting apartments, hospitals, neighborhoods.  They are intentionally murdering hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians.  Raping women and children.  Killing POWs.  But Ukraine shouldn't fight back.  Shouldn't counterattack?

 

Most Russians don't want to continue the war.  There is 1 man who does, and unfortunately, he is the one calling all the shots.  They are essentially murdering their own citizens as well (conscripts sent to the front with no weapons and little to no training), and then not even paying the standard for a service death.  

[Tommy Callahan]

1 minute ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

If you noticed the anti war crowd has slowly shifted to pro Russia.

 

Oh those poor ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine!!!!  Never mind Putin paid them to first stir trouble then attempt to revolt.

 

These people are brainwashed by idiotic right wing talking heads whose only goal is to crap on every single decision made by dems.  Even when it contradicts longstanding conservative ideals.

only a propagandist and war monger would call the antiwar folks, pro Putin and pro war.

 

90% of Crimea is Russian

 

75+% in the other regions.

 

Eff, ethnic Tartars make up more than the Ukrainians in Crimea.

 

are you saying the euro maiden was organic and had nothing to do with the west getting ahold of the energy sources under the disputed regions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

20 minutes ago, cle23 said:

 

Counterattacking is not escalating.  And who cares about government facilities?  Russia is targeting apartments, hospitals, neighborhoods.  They are intentionally murdering hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians.  Raping women and children.  Killing POWs.  But Ukraine shouldn't fight back.  Shouldn't counterattack?

 

Most Russians don't want to continue the war.  There is 1 man who does, and unfortunately, he is the one calling all the shots.  They are essentially murdering their own citizens as well (conscripts sent to the front with no weapons and little to no training), and then not even paying the standard for a service death.  

 

You're also supposed to ignore the reasons why Prigohzin said the war started. You know, before he launched his mutiny in protest of how incompetent the Russian military was, and before Putin had him assassinated on the way to a negotiation.

 

Quote

“The Ministry of Defense is trying to deceive the public and the president and spin the story that there were insane levels of aggression from the Ukrainian side and that they were going to attack us together with the whole NATO bloc,” Prigozhin said on his Telegram channel on June 23. The truth, he said, was that “there was nothing extraordinary happening on the eve of February 24,” the day last year when Russian invaded. Ukraine was not planning any kind of attack against Russia, he added.

Russia’s invasion “was started for a completely different reason,” Prigozhin said. “What was the war for? The war was needed for Shoigu to receive a hero star. … The oligarchic clan that rules Russia needed the war,” he said. “The mentally ill scumbags decided: ‘It’s OK, we’ll throw in a few thousand more Russian men as cannon fodder. They’ll die under artillery fire, but we’ll get what we want.’”

“Shoigu killed thousands of the most combat-ready Russian soldiers in the first days of the war,” Prigozhin said, adding that the invasion began even as Zelenskyy and Ukraine were eager for peace. The Ukrainian leader “was ready for agreements. All that needed to be done was to get off Mount Olympus and negotiate with him.”

 

Ukraine wanted to make peace, Russia didn't.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers

[L Ron Burgundy]

1 minute ago, Tommy Callahan said:

only a propagandist and war monger would call the antiwar folks, pro Putin and pro war.

 

90% of Crimea is Russian

 

75+% in the other regions.

 

Eff, ethnic Tartars make up more than the Ukrainians in Crimea.

 

are you saying the euro maiden was organic and had nothing to do with the west getting ahold of the energy sources under the disputed regions.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah those ethnic Russians in the east and Crimea were not clamoring for a return to the motherland, the Eastern separatists didn't rebel until Vlad made some people rich.   Only someone swallowing his (your now friend Vlads) propaganda think otherwise.  You mention Euromaidan this thread like you're some sort of expert and understand the complexities in Ukraine then (or now).  You clearly don't you are just parroting conspiracy.  Yanukovich was always a Russian puppet, this is fact.   While I'm sure the west stuck their nose in these events they certainly didn't initiate anything.   And it certainly pales to the influence Russia had ALL ALONG.  But you don't take that into account.   

[Tiberius]

Crimea is indefensible. Ukraine clobbers any fascist ship that tries dock there. 

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/putin-forced-relocate-ships-crimea-050013706.html

 

The assaults have forced Russia to move its ships further from harm’s way, almost a decade after Putin annexed Crimea with the goal of preserving the fleet’s presence there as Kyiv drew closer to the US and Europe.

“No Crimean port is safe any more for Russian warships,” said Ruslan Pukhov, director of the Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies in Moscow. Ukraine has “basically ejected the fleet from Crimea.”Russia Strikes Ukrainian Cities Days After Warship Hit in Crimea

Its latest attack by a cruise missile claimed a large Russian landing ship at the eastern Crimean port of Feodosia on Tuesday. In all, Russia has lost at least 20 vessels including warships, a submarine and landing craft since Putin ordered the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, according to the Ukrainian Armed Forces and independent assessments by the open-source intelligence outlet Oryx.

[Tommy Callahan]

6 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Yeah those ethnic Russians in the east and Crimea were not clamoring for a return to the motherland, the Eastern separatists didn't rebel until Vlad made some people rich.   Only someone swallowing his (your now friend Vlads) propaganda think otherwise.  You mention Euromaidan this thread like you're some sort of expert and understand the complexities in Ukraine then (or now).  You clearly don't you are just parroting conspiracy.  Yanukovich was always a Russian puppet, this is fact.   While I'm sure the west stuck their nose in these events they certainly didn't initiate anything.   And it certainly pales to the influence Russia had ALL ALONG.  But you don't take that into account.   

was the dude voted in?  the NATO/western backed coup didn't start till Yankovic delayed signing a free trade deal with Ukraine.

 

its been a dictators ship since.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

 

 

 

Demographics of Crimea - Wikipedia

 

The end game needs to be peace before Ukraine becomes something that can't come back from.  How, no effing clue.

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, according to the Ukrainian Armed Forces and independent assessments by the open-source intelligence outlet Oryx.

Thats got to be the first full scale invasion of a country that just stops at the river part way there.

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

9 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Yeah those ethnic Russians in the east and Crimea were not clamoring for a return to the motherland, the Eastern separatists didn't rebel until Vlad made some people rich.   Only someone swallowing his (your now friend Vlads) propaganda think otherwise.  You mention Euromaidan this thread like you're some sort of expert and understand the complexities in Ukraine then (or now).  You clearly don't you are just parroting conspiracy.  Yanukovich was always a Russian puppet, this is fact.   While I'm sure the west stuck their nose in these events they certainly didn't initiate anything.   And it certainly pales to the influence Russia had ALL ALONG.  But you don't take that into account.   

I know more about Ukraine than you because I'll venture to guess I know more actual Americans of Ukrainian descent than you do, some of which are family.  I'm thinking you're basic premise is the other guys are malevolent and evil while the folks in Washington and their allies are Boy Scouts always playing it fair and square by the rules and never telling a lie.  

Perhaps Yanukovich was a "Russian puppet" but he was democratically elected and removed through a coup where the US Dept of State and CIA played a lead on-the-ground role.  And the replacement, Zelensky, a puppet of the Americans and the West.

My position from the beginning was this entire situation is none of our business and absent our participation there would have been no coup, no violation of the Minsk Accords, no invasion, and no war.  I see no clear reason or evidence to change that view.  On a side note, rather than some dispute of no consequence 8,000 miles away we should be focusing on China's takeover and influence in Central and South America, right in our backyard.  A real US national security threat.  Something this administration ignores. 

Look at all the interventions our government has gotten us into, all the money spent, all the lives lost all around.  Its hard to name one that didn't turn out to be a complete disaster.  Its hard to say the world is a better and safer place because of American interventions.  Its just the opposite.  I'd like to hear anyone suggest otherwise.  Thinking about it, Its hard to remember a single year during my lifetime where we weren't at war or directly supporting somebody else's war effort.  This is going to be a disaster too but I'm sure you'll support whatever spin the people behind these disasters make up when they declare success and absolve themselves for all the negative consequences and death their actions caused.  And to add, no war criminals here for things like 100's of thousands of Iraqi civilian deaths under Bush or errant drone attacks ordered by Obama in targets in places like Pakistan to take out dangerous activities like wedding parties!  Yup, those DC Boy Scouts are pure and good.

There's no conspiracy here.  Just bad policy and bad leadership.  With every failure we lose influence and respect.  I got to wonder how steep the learning curve is for you and other like-minded posters here to finally figure it out.

[Tommy Callahan]

What we got here is failure to communicate.  Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we have here.  Which is the way they want it.  Well he gets it.  And I don't like it anymore than you   now I'm whistling 

[Doc]

1 hour ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

If you noticed the anti war crowd has slowly shifted to pro Russia.

 

Oh those poor ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine!!!!  Never mind Putin paid them to first stir trouble then attempt to revolt.

 

These people are brainwashed by idiotic right wing talking heads whose only goal is to crap on every single decision made by dems.  Even when it contradicts longstanding conservative ideals.

 

This is just stupid. 

[L Ron Burgundy]

6 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I know more about Ukraine than you because I'll venture to guess I know more actual Americans of Ukrainian descent than you do, some of which are family.  I'm thinking you're basic premise is the other guys are malevolent and evil while the folks in Washington and their allies are Boy Scouts always playing it fair and square by the rules and never telling a lie.  

Perhaps Yanukovich was a "Russian puppet" but he was democratically elected and removed through a coup where the US Dept of State and CIA played a lead on-the-ground role.  And the replacement, Zelensky, a puppet of the Americans and the West.

My position from the beginning was this entire situation is none of our business and absent our participation there would have been no coup, no violation of the Minsk Accords, no invasion, and no war.  I see no clear reason or evidence to change that view.  On a side note, rather than some dispute of no consequence 8,000 miles away we should be focusing on China's takeover and influence in Central and South America, right in our backyard.  A real US national security threat.  Something this administration ignores. 

Look at all the interventions our government has gotten us into, all the money spent, all the lives lost all around.  Its hard to name one that didn't turn out to be a complete disaster.  Its hard to say the world is a better and safer place because of American interventions.  Its just the opposite.  I'd like to hear anyone suggest otherwise.  Thinking about it, Its hard to remember a single year during my lifetime where we weren't at war or directly supporting somebody else's war effort.  This is going to be a disaster too but I'm sure you'll support whatever spin the people behind these disasters make up when they declare success and absolve themselves for all the negative consequences and death their actions caused.  And to add, no war criminals here for things like 100's of thousands of Iraqi civilian deaths under Bush or errant drone attacks ordered by Obama in targets in places like Pakistan to take out dangerous activities like wedding parties!  Yup, those DC Boy Scouts are pure and good.

There's no conspiracy here.  Just bad policy and bad leadership.  With every failure we lose influence and respect.  I got to wonder how steep the learning curve is for you and other like-minded posters here to finally figure it out.

Lol.  You know about Ukraine because you know Ukrainians?  Do you know how absurd you sound?  Are you in 3rd or 4th grade?

 

I spent the Orange Revolution in Eastern europe where they were cheering on Ukraine for finally starting what they had done long before.  I also spent most of the past 2 years there watching refugees stream through looking for a country to take them in.

 

You know nothing John Slow.  Your opinions, as usual, are steeped in baseless conspiracy.   Yeah I know your cousins buddy told you the US caused a coup!  It's BS.  The WEST supported Ukraine.   We are just a part of the west.  And support means a lot of things,  not lead or caused or initiated. 

 

15 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

This is just stupid. 

Oh did I ruffle your panties?   

[All_Pro_Bills]

8 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Lol.  You know about Ukraine because you know Ukrainians?  Do you know how absurd you sound?  Are you in 3rd or 4th grade?

 

I spent the Orange Revolution in Eastern europe where they were cheering on Ukraine for finally starting what they had done long before.  I also spent most of the past 2 years there watching refugees stream through looking for a country to take them in.

 

You know nothing John Slow.  Your opinions, as usual, are steeped in baseless conspiracy.   Yeah I know your cousins buddy told you the US caused a coup!  It's BS.  The WEST supported Ukraine.   We are just a part of the west.  And support means a lot of things,  not lead or caused or initiated. 

 

Oh did I ruffle your panties?   

Well, when the thing ends and absolutely nothing was gained, billions were wasted courtesy of the US taxpayer, 100's of thousands are dead, many more injured or disabled, millions of displaced Ukrainians are left to their own, a negotiated settlement renders the currently Russian occupied provinces are no longer part of Ukraine proper, and another failed US intervention goes into the dumpster, I'll ask you to apologize and admit I was right.  How's that sound? 

[BillStime]

Yup

 

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

14 minutes ago, BillStime said:

Yup

 

 

 

 

There's a lot of chatter right now of escalation with Nato.  My indpendent news sources say things are ramping up around Estonia.

 

Not sure how serious it is or if just Nato members thumping their chests.  The notion that Russa would keep going is crazy, they can't even take Ukraine.  The thing is ....Putin is crazy.  As intelligent as he's been in the past he is just as crazy now.  He's surrounded himself with yes men so all the info getting to him is borsch flavored BS.

 

 

[BillStime]

12 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

 

 

There's a lot of chatter right now of escalation with Nato.  My indpendent news sources say things are ramping up around Estonia.

 

Not sure how serious it is or if just Nato members thumping their chests.  The notion that Russa would keep going is crazy, they can't even take Ukraine.  The thing is ....Putin is crazy.  As intelligent as he's been in the past he is just as crazy now.  He's surrounded himself with yes men so all the info getting to him is borsch flavored BS.

 

 

And if Trump wins - Putin wins.

 

Its that simple. 

[L Ron Burgundy]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Well, when the thing ends and absolutely nothing was gained, billions were wasted courtesy of the US taxpayer, 100's of thousands are dead, many more injured or disabled, millions of displaced Ukrainians are left to their own, a negotiated settlement renders the currently Russian occupied provinces are no longer part of Ukraine proper, and another failed US intervention goes into the dumpster, I'll ask you to apologize and admit I was right.  How's that sound? 

 

I agree on the likely outcome but disagree that would mean we accomplished nothing.  Is it really nothing that Russia's big war resulted in a sliver of ***** eastern Ukraine vs them conquering the whole country?  I'm guessing you believe that without our assistance Russia would have all of Ukraine by now yes?

 

And, if they had rolled through Ukraine with let's say minimal West $ (i dont agree they would have but certainly possible) wouldnt you say then they would definitely be eyeing their next target?

 

And no matter what the dead count would be similar.  Just a much higher percentage of Ukrainians dead.  People dont want to be slaves and that's exactly what Ukraine would be. 

 

Your position in terms of Ukraine/US involvement is incorrect because you do not understand eastern europe as a whole.  The former soviet bloc nations are, nearly all, thriving as they westernize (which is not to say its going perfect).  Ukraine, and her people, want that.  The US is not the main driver of Ukraine moving away from Russia, it's looking at Poland, Czech, the Baltic nations all thriving through Westernization (Freedom baby!).   You fall for silly conspiracies way too much.  You say 10 smart things then go straight Alex Jones.

[L Ron Burgundy]

18 minutes ago, BillStime said:

And if Trump wins - Putin wins.

 

Its that simple. 

I bet if you handed him an unlabeled map he couldn't find Ukraine.   I would bet every $ I had.

[L Ron Burgundy]

3 hours ago, Tommy Callahan said:

was the dude voted in?  the NATO/western backed coup didn't start till Yankovic delayed signing a free trade deal with Ukraine.

 

its been a dictators ship since.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

 

 

 

Demographics of Crimea - Wikipedia

 

The end game needs to be peace before Ukraine becomes something that can't come back from.  How, no effing clue.

 

 

 

Thats got to be the first full scale invasion of a country that just stops at the river part way there.

 

 

Your posts are so full of stupid/conspiracy it's hard to know if it's worth replying.  Yanukovich got elected because Russia was meddling- which was not anything new.  Fraud/intimidation, you name it.  Nothing blew up right away because he basically agreed not to shift hard to Russia and Ukraine would keep going in the direction they were going - toward westernization/being part of Europe.  But then once he was elected he broke his promise.  That's when the people rebelled.  It's likely Yanukovich was threatened by the Kremlin but he may have just been Putin's guy for the $.

 

Dictators since then.....just f'n stupid.  You can be against the war without sounding like a f'n Russian stooge.

[John from Riverside]

8 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Then why is his approval rating at a historical low?  It's not because of his age...

Yes, it actually is because of his age. If you look at any of the polling whenever they talk about Biden, they talk about his age which actually is a valid criticism. They’re worried that he’s going to die while he’s president.