The Frankish Reich Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said: Whatever happened to walking and chewing gum at the same time? You seem to suggest is that you’d only start negotiating once Russian forces are pushed backed to the border at the time this all started. If that’s the case, there’s no point in negotiating. Not "pushed back to the border." More like "once Putin understands that there will be no such thing as the victory he imagined he'd win in Ukraine." At that point, the concept of a negotiated withdrawal becomes possible. A preemptive surrender just emboldens him.
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 8 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Not "pushed back to the border." More like "once Putin understands that there will be no such thing as the victory he imagined he'd win in Ukraine." At that point, the concept of a negotiated withdrawal becomes possible. A preemptive surrender just emboldens him. I’m not understanding. Surrender? I think Putin already knows this didn’t go as he’d planned. You don’t think so? 1
The Frankish Reich Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said: I’m not understanding. Surrender? I think Putin already knows this didn’t go as he’d planned. You don’t think so? I think he's playing a waiting game, hoping that the resolve of the West (particularly of the USA) wanes. That's rational, since Trump, DeSantis, and others have suggested that they'd cut off funding for Ukraine.
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 11 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: I think he's playing a waiting game, hoping that the resolve of the West (particularly of the USA) wanes. That's rational, since Trump, DeSantis, and others have suggested that they'd cut off funding for Ukraine. Maybe….but the ‘as long as it takes’ strategy appears to be a total failure as well. Unless a WWI-like stalemate is the desired outcome. 1
Coffeesforclosers Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 14 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Maybe….but the ‘as long as it takes’ strategy appears to be a total failure as well. See, I look at the example of the Vietnamese vs. us, the Afghanis vs. the USSR, the Taliban vs. us, and I think a smaller power that's willing to take its lumps and not lose stands a really good chance of winning. Especially against a larger power that has a ton of other fish that it wants to fry, but can't...because it's stuck in a forever war it didn't need to start, and is too dumb to admit it's lost... 1
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 42 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: See, I look at the example of the Vietnamese vs. us, the Afghanis vs. the USSR, the Taliban vs. us, and I think a smaller power that's willing to take its lumps and not lose stands a really good chance of winning. Especially against a larger power that has a ton of other fish that it wants to fry, but can't...because it's stuck in a forever war it didn't need to start, and is too dumb to admit it's lost... This winning and losing is a bunch of nonsense when you’re NEGOTIATING a cease fire. For a negotiation to work everyone has to be able save some face. The tricky part here is to come up with a solution that doesn’t feel like a total failure to one side or the other. 1
Coffeesforclosers Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 Just now, SoCal Deek said: This winning and losing is a bunch of nonsense when you’re NEGOTIATING a cease fire. For a negotiation to work everyone has to be able save some face. The tricky part here is to come up with a solution that doesn’t feel like a total failure to one side or the other. I agree, but that doesn't matter.
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: I agree, but that doesn't matter. Thanks…but what doesn’t matter? As with all military conflicts since WW2 this has gone on long enough and needs to end. The cost inflicted in time, lives and treasure has long since passed the point of being utterly ridiculous. If this was a schoolyard brawl, the adults would’ve stepped in and separated the two kids long ago. 1
Coffeesforclosers Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said: Thanks…but what doesn’t matter? As with all military conflicts since WW2 this has gone on long enough and needs to end. The cost inflicted in time, lives and treasure has long since passed the point of being utterly ridiculous. If this was a schoolyard brawl, the adults would’ve stepped in and separated the two kids long ago. You're ignoring that both sides want to win, and have plans to win that they think are working. So unless you want pick a winner... waiting them out is the only answer.
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 Just now, Coffeesforclosers said: You're ignoring that both sides want to win, and have plans to win that they think are working. So unless you want pick a winner... waiting them out is the only answer. Ugh! There’s never been a negotiation in ANY disagreement that both sides didn’t want to win. That’s why it’s called negotiating! 1
Coffeesforclosers Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 4 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Ugh! There’s never been a negotiation in ANY disagreement that both sides didn’t want to win. That’s why it’s called negotiating! Sure there was. When one side has already won. You're thinking like a businessman. Not a historian. The Confederate States of America didn't get a chance to negotiate. Nazi Germany didn't get a chance to negotiate. See my point? 1
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 2 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: Sure there was. When one side has already won. You're thinking like a businessman. Not a historian. The Confederate States of America didn't get a chance to negotiate. Nazi Germany didn't get a chance to negotiate. See my point? Yes…I see your point. But those are instances when surrender were the ‘terms’ of the negotiation. That’s not the point we’re at, and Russia isn’t going to cease to exist in this case. You have to negotiate terms. 1
Coffeesforclosers Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Yes…I see your point. But those are instances when surrender were the ‘terms’ of the negotiation. That’s not the point we’re at, and Russia isn’t going to cease to exist in this case. You have to negotiate terms. I agree. But like I've said, as long as nobody wants to negotiate because they think they're winning...then you have to pick a winner. Or a loser. Then force them to settle. So, hypothetically, what credible threats are we prepared to make for peace?
SoCal Deek Posted August 21, 2023 Posted August 21, 2023 3 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: I agree. But like I've said, as long as nobody wants to negotiate because they think they're winning...then you have to pick a winner. Or a loser. Then force them to settle. So, hypothetically, what credible threats are we prepared to make for peace? We? Unfortunately, the United States probably can’t be all that involved in the negotiations. We’re definitely not a disinterested party. 1
Joe Ferguson forever Posted August 22, 2023 Posted August 22, 2023 not going to help Putins power hold https://www.the-sun.com/news/8887903/moscow-drone-siege-airports-putin/ 1
Tommy Callahan Posted August 22, 2023 Posted August 22, 2023 11 hours ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: not going to help Putins power hold https://www.the-sun.com/news/8887903/moscow-drone-siege-airports-putin/ Last time something similar happened. Putin responded with hypersonic and escalated to attacking the Kiev government installations.
Tommy Callahan Posted August 23, 2023 Posted August 23, 2023 ^^^^^^^^^^ I would think twice about trusting anything from that site or Stsiapan Putsila
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