Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Doc]

I still wonder if the people of Ukraine think the Ukrainian government's alleged and vain "pursuit of democracy" was worth all the death and destruction?

Edited July 6, 2023 by Doc

[Coffeesforclosers]

14 minutes ago, Doc said:

I still wonder if the people of Ukraine think the Ukrainian government's alleged and vain "pursuit of democracy" was worth all the death and destruction?

 

If this post got any more pompous, it would run for a Congressional seat in Brooklyn. 

[Doc]

52 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

If this post got any more pompous, it would run for a Congressional seat in Brooklyn. 

 

It's a legit question.  I suppose I could have asked "was it worth it?"

[All_Pro_Bills]

29 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

It's a legit question.  I suppose I could have asked "was it worth it?"

It's been great for the Washington neocons, psychopaths, and other assorted war lovers.  None of them have been killed, yet.  But I'm holding out hope Satan will soon summon them back to Hell.

[ChiGoose]

44 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

It's a legit question.  I suppose I could have asked "was it worth it?"

“Is freedom worth fighting for?” is an interesting question right after the 4th of July…

[ALF]

10 hours ago, Doc said:

I still wonder if the people of Ukraine think the Ukrainian government's alleged and vain "pursuit of democracy" was worth all the death and destruction?

 

Just curious , why would prefer to live under communism and Putin rather then freedom ?

 

How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine
Cruel efforts under Stalin to impose collectivism and tamp down Ukrainian nationalism left an estimated 3.9 million dead.

 

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

 

From 1922 until 1991, Ukraine was the informal name of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic within the Soviet Union (annexed by Germany as Reichskommissariat Ukraine during 1941–1944).

 

Ukraine officially declared itself an independent country on 24 August 1991, when the communist Supreme Soviet (parliament) of Ukraine proclaimed that Ukraine would no longer follow the laws of USSR and only the laws of the Ukrainian SSR, de facto declaring Ukraine's independence from the Soviet Union.

Edited July 6, 2023 by ALF

[Tiberius]

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

4 hours ago, ALF said:

 

Just curious , why would prefer to live under communism and Putin rather then freedom ?

 

How Joseph Stalin Starved Millions in the Ukrainian Famine
Cruel efforts under Stalin to impose collectivism and tamp down Ukrainian nationalism left an estimated 3.9 million dead.

 

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

 

From 1922 until 1991, Ukraine was the informal name of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic within the Soviet Union (annexed by Germany as Reichskommissariat Ukraine during 1941–1944).

 

Ukraine officially declared itself an independent country on 24 August 1991, when the communist Supreme Soviet (parliament) of Ukraine proclaimed that Ukraine would no longer follow the laws of USSR and only the laws of the Ukrainian SSR, de facto declaring Ukraine's independence from the Soviet Union.

I'd be curious to objectively understand what specific "rights" and "freedoms" poster believe Ukrainians have under Zelensky that support the conclusion they have more "democracy" than Russians do under Putin. For example, Zelensky's jailed journalists and outlawed opposition political parties in alignment with a couple things Putin has done.  I think its pretty close to a draw. 

 

 

 

 

[ChiGoose]

6 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I'd be curious to objectively understand what specific "rights" and "freedoms" poster believe Ukrainians have under Zelensky that support the conclusion they have more "democracy" than Russians do under Putin. For example, Zelensky's jailed journalists and outlawed opposition political parties in alignment with a couple things Putin has done.  I think its pretty close to a draw. 

 

 

 

 

Putin’s soldiers are torturing, raping, and murdering Ukrainians.

 

So… maybe not a “draw”

[All_Pro_Bills]

48 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

Putin’s soldiers are torturing, raping, and murdering Ukrainians.

 

So… maybe not a “draw”

And how do you know this?  There's only a couple ways.  You have firsthand knowledge or you have reports from trusted sources.  But reports also indicate they're targeting hospitals, schools, malls, and old folks homes with missile strikes while avoiding any military targets. 

 

And didn't Ukrainian Nazi militia's murder Ukrainians of Russian descent in the Eastern provinces from 2014 to 2022? 

Edited July 6, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[ChiGoose]

41 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

And how do you know this?  There's only a couple ways.  You have firsthand knowledge or you have reports from trusted sources.  But reports also indicate they're targeting hospitals, schools, malls, and old folks homes with missile strikes while avoiding any military targets. 

 

And didn't Ukrainian Nazi militia's murder Ukrainians of Russian descent in the Eastern provinces from 2014 to 2022? 

Russia’s Smoking Guns How to Prove the Putin Regime’s War Crimes in Ukraine

 

“After more than 16 months of war, investigators have acquired an increasingly clear picture of Russian crimes. These include the massacre of hundreds of civilians in Bucha, on the outskirts of Kyiv, in the early weeks of the war; reports from formerly Russian-occupied areas such as Kherson, in the south, where Russian personnel plunged civilians’ hands into boiling water or pulled out their fingernails; and Izium, in the east, where hundreds of mass graves were found after the Russian retreat in September. ”

-

”One of the most egregious crimes has been the deportation of children. Since the early summer of 2022, eyewitnesses began telling the Reckoning Project that Russian forces in Mariupol were rounding up Ukrainian children and sending them to Russia. In February 2023, the Yale Humanitarian Research Lab reported that more than 6,000 Ukrainian children had been taken to Russia and identified 43 different facilities in Russia that had been holding them. These children came from the Donbas and other areas that had fallen under Russian control. In March 2022, the mayor of Mariupol said that “hundreds” of local children had been taken to Russia during the Russian occupation of the city. Some were separated from their parents as families were fleeing the city: parents were brought to so-called filtration camps—facilities used by Russian forces to detain and interrogate Ukrainians—and the children were bused across the border to Russia. Some were taken to the Far East; some traveled on as many as three airplanes. 

 

Some parents have been told that their children were being sent to summer camps in a safe area of Ukraine; instead, they were taken to the Russian Federation. Once in Russia, Ukrainian children have been forced to undergo Russian indoctrination. Some have been forced to give up their Ukrainian names and take Russian ones. They are then given “lessons” in Russian history. Not only is this process clearly organized by the Russian government but it is also not the first time that Moscow has pursued it.”

[All_Pro_Bills]

21 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

Russia’s Smoking Guns How to Prove the Putin Regime’s War Crimes in Ukraine

 

“After more than 16 months of war, investigators have acquired an increasingly clear picture of Russian crimes. These include the massacre of hundreds of civilians in Bucha, on the outskirts of Kyiv, in the early weeks of the war; reports from formerly Russian-occupied areas such as Kherson, in the south, where Russian personnel plunged civilians’ hands into boiling water or pulled out their fingernails; and Izium, in the east, where hundreds of mass graves were found after the Russian retreat in September. ”

-

”One of the most egregious crimes has been the deportation of children. Since the early summer of 2022, eyewitnesses began telling the Reckoning Project that Russian forces in Mariupol were rounding up Ukrainian children and sending them to Russia. In February 2023, the Yale Humanitarian Research Lab reported that more than 6,000 Ukrainian children had been taken to Russia and identified 43 different facilities in Russia that had been holding them. These children came from the Donbas and other areas that had fallen under Russian control. In March 2022, the mayor of Mariupol said that “hundreds” of local children had been taken to Russia during the Russian occupation of the city. Some were separated from their parents as families were fleeing the city: parents were brought to so-called filtration camps—facilities used by Russian forces to detain and interrogate Ukrainians—and the children were bused across the border to Russia. Some were taken to the Far East; some traveled on as many as three airplanes. 

 

Some parents have been told that their children were being sent to summer camps in a safe area of Ukraine; instead, they were taken to the Russian Federation. Once in Russia, Ukrainian children have been forced to undergo Russian indoctrination. Some have been forced to give up their Ukrainian names and take Russian ones. They are then given “lessons” in Russian history. Not only is this process clearly organized by the Russian government but it is also not the first time that Moscow has pursued it.”

Thx.  I'm familiar with the Council on Foreign Relations.

[Tommy Callahan]

38 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Thx.  I'm familiar with the Council on Foreign Relations.

Lol.  Using cfr as a reference.  

[The Frankish Reich]

2 hours ago, ChiGoose said:

Putin’s soldiers are torturing, raping, and murdering Ukrainians.

 

So… maybe not a “draw”

And indiscriminately bombing civilians: hospitals, schools, apartment buildings.

And the guy in Russia is administering radioactive poisons to political opponents both inside and outside of Russia.

I'm not one to immediately say "Russian bot" every time there's a pro-Russia comment, but really: there is nothing to distinguish this post from a Russian bot.

[ChiGoose]

20 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

And indiscriminately bombing civilians: hospitals, schools, apartment buildings.

And the guy in Russia is administering radioactive poisons to political opponents both inside and outside of Russia.

I'm not one to immediately say "Russian bot" every time there's a pro-Russia comment, but really: there is nothing to distinguish this post from a Russian bot.

Ukraine has some real problems. As a former Soviet state, it has a long history of corruption. That’s what ended up leading to the people wanting to move out of Russia’s sphere of influence and towards the West. 
 

That doesn’t fix everything instantly. They’re far from perfect. But the question is: are they making progress? They still have corruption but now people are actually getting arrested and punished for it. That’s a step in the right direction. 
 

But people want to point out the very real issues with Ukraine as a reason we should just let Russia steamroll them and take over the country. I think that’s insane. We can be adults and recognize that while Ukraine isn’t perfect, they are working on getting better, and they are by no means comparable to the murderous authoritarian kleptocracy that is Russia. 

[The Frankish Reich]

49 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

Ukraine has some real problems. As a former Soviet state, it has a long history of corruption. That’s what ended up leading to the people wanting to move out of Russia’s sphere of influence and towards the West. 
 

That doesn’t fix everything instantly. They’re far from perfect. But the question is: are they making progress? They still have corruption but now people are actually getting arrested and punished for it. That’s a step in the right direction. 
 

But people want to point out the very real issues with Ukraine as a reason we should just let Russia steamroll them and take over the country. I think that’s insane. We can be adults and recognize that while Ukraine isn’t perfect, they are working on getting better, and they are by no means comparable to the murderous authoritarian kleptocracy that is Russia. 

Exactly. 

Look at what's happened in the last 30 years in the former Soviet bloc countries that redirected their focus away from Moscow and toward the west: the Baltic states, Poland, Slovenia, Czech Republic, the former East Germany. Tremendous growth and prosperity they could only have dreamed of in the Soviet era.

Meanwhile: Russia, Belarus: total economic basket cases. There's no comparison. That's what Ukrainians finally took notice of, and that's why losing the Ukraine's Russia orientation became such an insane focus of Putin and his crumbling empire.

[L Ron Burgundy]

3 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

And how do you know this?  There's only a couple ways.  You have firsthand knowledge or you have reports from trusted sources.  But reports also indicate they're targeting hospitals, schools, malls, and old folks homes with missile strikes while avoiding any military targets. 

 

And didn't Ukrainian Nazi militia's murder Ukrainians of Russian descent in the Eastern provinces from 2014 to 2022? 

What proof do you have Ukraine did anything more than fight Russian separatists in the east?  There are so many videos of Russian atrocities at this point no rational person can deny it.  And why would they?  Russia has historically let their military get away with wonton savagery.  Yes there are some fake videos.   People do stupid ***** for clicks.  It isn't some grand conspiracy though.   

58 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

Ukraine has some real problems. As a former Soviet state, it has a long history of corruption. That’s what ended up leading to the people wanting to move out of Russia’s sphere of influence and towards the West. 
 

That doesn’t fix everything instantly. They’re far from perfect. But the question is: are they making progress? They still have corruption but now people are actually getting arrested and punished for it. That’s a step in the right direction. 
 

But people want to point out the very real issues with Ukraine as a reason we should just let Russia steamroll them and take over the country. I think that’s insane. We can be adults and recognize that while Ukraine isn’t perfect, they are working on getting better, and they are by no means comparable to the murderous authoritarian kleptocracy that is Russia. 

Why is this so hard to comprehend?  I've said similar many times but people would rather believe it's a globalist conspiracy or some other bs.

[SoCal Deek]

2 hours ago, ChiGoose said:

Ukraine has some real problems. As a former Soviet state, it has a long history of corruption. That’s what ended up leading to the people wanting to move out of Russia’s sphere of influence and towards the West. 
 

That doesn’t fix everything instantly. They’re far from perfect. But the question is: are they making progress? They still have corruption but now people are actually getting arrested and punished for it. That’s a step in the right direction. 
 

But people want to point out the very real issues with Ukraine as a reason we should just let Russia steamroll them and take over the country. I think that’s insane. We can be adults and recognize that while Ukraine isn’t perfect, they are working on getting better, and they are by no means comparable to the murderous authoritarian kleptocracy that is Russia. 

How do you know there’s corruption in Ukraine? I thought we weren’t allowed to ask about it. 

[ChiGoose]

22 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

How do you know there’s corruption in Ukraine? I thought we weren’t allowed to ask about it. 

I do this weird thing where I read. And then I base my opinion on what I can find to be reputable sources. 
 

You should try it some time! It’s helpful!

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, ChiGoose said:

I do this weird thing where I read. And then I base my opinion on what I can find to be reputable sources. 
 

You should try it some time! It’s helpful!

So you’re saying there is corruption in Ukraine? Really? Go figure! Must be a new thing.