All_Pro_Bills Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 6 hours ago, reddogblitz said: I'm glad to hear you are not advocating military intervention. I may be wrong, but it seems @Tiberius and @BillStime are pretty hip on the idea. You say there were no negative consequences Putin suffered from the taking of Crimea. I suppose. But what negative consequences is China getting for taking Hong Kong? Now they are going after Taiwaan? The only sanctions going on there are against us. Shouldn't we be doing something about that? If we do sanctions, gas prices will go up 50 cents a gallon according to Jen Psaki. Sounds more like sanctions against us. On top of that do you think Russia will not retaliate some how? Possibly could be large cyber attack. They're good at it. Both China and Russia are problems for the US establishment but its one thing at a time here. After sleeping on it overnight I've concluded the Biden administration achieved through this situation, while not the best-case full Russian attack scenario, exactly what they were looking for in Ukraine. Anyone suggesting they were "tying to stop a war" isn't paying attention to the big picture. The objective was to provoke a military response from Russia. Stopping a war, resulting in peace and some negotiated settlement would have allowed Russian plans for economic integration with Europe to continue uninterrupted. And whether it's 1 year, 2 years, 5 years, or even 10 years sooner or later American interests would find themselves excluded from the head table for setting European policy. It seems pretty clear certain countries, Germany and France in particular, want the US out of their backyard. But after yesterday taking that stance and advocating for integration and cooperation with Russia might be politically dangerous. At least for a while until this all blows over. And now Putin's plans are on pause and its not clear exactly where things go from here with sanctions and other possible consequences. That's priority one for the US establishment, keep control of European policy. Priority number 2, contain Russian interests. Good here on both counts. For most intents and purposes these provinces were already under Russian control and recognizing their independence (did they even declare their independence or did I miss that?) is just a formality. But all the support and weaponry supplied by the US served its purpose. It emboldened anti-Russian elements inside Ukraine to use those weapons to disrupt the balance of power that kept relative peace in the region. With these new resources it would have been a matter of time before the two provinces were brought under the control of Kiev. So Putin was forced into the choice of losing control of these regions or directly intervening. So he pulled the trigger on the independence recognition ploy which he'll argue provides pretext for sending forces into Eastern Ukraine. To keep people "safe". Expect lots of rhetoric out of Kiev but not much military action over time. I'm sure they're completely cognizant they traded these two republics for US support and assistance. How sanctions hurt US consumers is unclear but they will hurt Europeans more. US financial markets while down don't appear too concerned by looking at the futures action. Down but not down dramatically, gold up over night but giving up those gains and into the red by about 10 bucks. Oil is the market reacting badly with crude prices up around $3.40 as I write.
Tiberius Posted February 22, 2022 Author Posted February 22, 2022 3 minutes ago, Big Blitz said: Why care about Ukraine and the Budapest Memorandum https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/12/05/why-care-about-ukraine-and-the-budapest-memorandum/ Never forget Ukraine had nukes. But we didn't want that so we made them get rid of the 3rd largest stockpile in the world. In exchange we offered military "assistance" in the event Russia invaded them. Tho vague, don't doubt for one second if it gets ugly, if Biden needs a distraction, if media drums for war increase, we're going in. That is a good point. But let’s remember that Russia basically took over the country after that politically. They were very unstable. The “problem” now for Putin is that Ukraine was turning into a successful country.
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 19 minutes ago, Tiberius said: We need a tougher response you think? American air power needs to be committed? Is that what you want? Never should have gotten this far. Biden is a geopolitical doormat. Taiwan is next.
Tiberius Posted February 22, 2022 Author Posted February 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Never should have gotten this far. Biden is a geopolitical doormat. Taiwan is next. So do nothing now and hope it helps the GOP?
Governor Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said: Never should have gotten this far. Biden is a geopolitical doormat. Taiwan is next. This is what 4 years of Isolationism gets you. You can’t retreat from the entire world and expect no one else to make a move and fill that void. Edited February 22, 2022 by Governor 1
All_Pro_Bills Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 12 minutes ago, Governor said: This is what 4 years of Isolationism gets you. Now Joe has to fix it. Avoiding new foreign wars is not isolationism. 1
Tiberius Posted February 22, 2022 Author Posted February 22, 2022 5 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said: Avoiding new foreign wars is not isolationism. At all costs? Don’t fight ever? Don’t ever stand up to bullies?
SoCal Deek Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 19 minutes ago, Governor said: This is what 4 years of Isolationism gets you. You can’t retreat from the entire world and expect no one else to make a move and fill that void. So there it is…it’s Trump’s fault. Figures! Well at least it’s not still Bush’s fault….or wait, maybe it still is. 1
All_Pro_Bills Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Tiberius said: At all costs? Don’t fight ever? Don’t ever stand up to bullies? So you think we should without giving it any thought fight all wars regardless of consequences or costs? Edited February 22, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills
Westside Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, Tiberius said: At all costs? Don’t fight ever? Don’t ever stand up to bullies? Do you feel the the same about Taiwan? If china invaded them, should we go to war with china?
Tiberius Posted February 22, 2022 Author Posted February 22, 2022 1 minute ago, All_Pro_Bills said: So you think we should without giving it any thought fight all wars regardless of consequences or costs? That’s a really stupid question, completely off point and divorced from reality. Just now, Westside said: Do you feel the the same about Taiwan? If china invaded them, should we go to war with china? Taiwan should and must be defended. Biden did send a carrier battle group through the South China Sea and China went ballistic. I guess you did not know that https://thehill.com/policy/defense/navy/591015-us-aircraft-carriers-enter-south-china-sea-amid-tensions-between-taiwan
Governor Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 8 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: So there it is…it’s Trump’s fault. Figures! Well at least it’s not still Bush’s fault….or wait, maybe it still is. Obama put a bunch of resources into Ukraine on his way out the door because he knew Trump was going to let Putin do whatever he wanted. Trump then quickly removed those resources and here we are. It wasn’t that long ago. People remember. 1 1
SoCal Deek Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 1 minute ago, Governor said: Obama put a bunch of resources into Ukraine on his way out the door because he knew Trump was going to let Putin do whatever he wanted. Trump then quickly removed those resources and here we are. It wasn’t that long ago. People remember. Obama must have put those ‘resources’ in the drawer right next to the PPE he left for Trump. No wonder the world couldn’t find them.
Tiberius Posted February 22, 2022 Author Posted February 22, 2022 Just now, SoCal Deek said: Obama must have put those ‘resources’ in the drawer right next to the PPE he left for Trump. No wonder the world couldn’t find them. Do you know the story behind Trump and the weapons that were purchased by our government for Ukraine?
All_Pro_Bills Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Do you know the story behind Trump and the weapons that were purchased by our government for Ukraine? If I remember correctly, wasn't Crimea annexed under Obama's watch? What excuse do you have consistent with your standing up to bullies theory? 15 minutes ago, Tiberius said: That’s a really stupid question, completely off point and divorced from reality. I responded appropriately to your dumb question with a comparable answer. Edited February 22, 2022 by All_Pro_Bills
SoCal Deek Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 8 minutes ago, Tiberius said: Do you know the story behind Trump and the weapons that were purchased by our government for Ukraine? Let me see if I understand…you wanted US taxpayers and Defense Contractors to sell even MORE weapons of war to yet another foreign country? Fabulous.
Tiberius Posted February 22, 2022 Author Posted February 22, 2022 Just now, SoCal Deek said: Let me see if I understand…you wanted US taxpayers and Defense Contractors to sell even MORE weapons of war to yet another foreign country? Fabulous. Do you know? What I asked? And yes, sell nations under threat of aggression weapons to defend themselves.
SoCal Deek Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 1 minute ago, Tiberius said: Do you know? What I asked? And yes, sell nations under threat of aggression weapons to defend themselves. And you believe if we had just sold MORE weapons to Ukraine that all of this nonsense could’ve been avoided? That’s your take? Really? I’m done for now. Gotta get ready for work so I can pay those taxes, so we can borrow more money from China today to pay for weapons in Ukraine. 1
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted February 22, 2022 Posted February 22, 2022 51 minutes ago, Tiberius said: So do nothing now and hope it helps the GOP? This has nothing to do with helping GOP and everything to do with Biden being a total failure. The irony is how he enriched his own family off of the regime he has since abandoned. As for now? No I don’t want this incompetent administration spending any American lives, they aren’t bright enough to make it matter. 1
Tiberius Posted February 22, 2022 Author Posted February 22, 2022 Just now, Over 29 years of fanhood said: This has nothing to do with helping GOP and everything to do with Biden being a total failure. The irony is how he enriched his own family off of the regime he has since abandoned. As for now? No I don’t want this incompetent administration spending any American lives, they aren’t bright enough to make it matter. So, 40 million people about to be conqured and enslaved by Putin is simply Biden's fault and that's it. Ya, you don't want to sell these people away for political gain. Disgusting!
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