Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[All_Pro_Bills]

On 6/13/2023 at 9:40 AM, John from Riverside said:

They’re not getting through there because of the support that they’re receiving from NATO. If we withdrew our support, this war would be going very differently.
 

And don’t conflate what Putin is willing to do with what the common sense thing would be to do he invaded a sovereign country Which wasn’t smart to begin with
 

If Russia takes Ukraine, they’re right on NATO borders and Putin has already made statements in the past about what his broader intentions are

 

It doesn’t matter if he can’t win it matters that he’s willing to sacrifice his armies, and that he has nuclear weapons

I'm not disagreeing with you.  Invading another country unless directly confronted by some real danger is wrong.  But I think our nation as a whole, espectially people in government, suffers from a lack of self-awareness.  I wonder if they realize our country is guilty of that act many more times than any other nation?  These invasions are proceeded and followed by lots of patriotic speeches and flag waving but not a lot of thinking about why we're doing it and the specific consequences.  My assessment is the justification is based on a belief that we're good and they're bad.  But I think that's highly subjective conclusion and if we polled people from around the world on their perspective, we might get a different answer.   

[Tommy Callahan]

If this offensive was going good.  We would be reading and seeing it all over 

[Tiberius]

2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Growing up, I could never have imagined  I’d see the day when the Left would be frothing at the mouth to fund a foreign war. Inconceivable! 

See, that's why it's important to read history. We funded Great Britain's defence against Nazi's tyranny, this is the same. 

 

 

2 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

I'm not disagreeing with you.  Invading another country unless directly confronted by some real danger is wrong.  But I think our nation as a whole, espectially people in government, suffers from a lack of self-awareness.  I wonder if they realize our country is guilty of that act many more times than any other nation?  These invasions are proceeded and followed by lots of patriotic speeches and flag waving but not a lot of thinking about why we're doing it and the specific consequences.  My assessment is the justification is based on a belief that we're good and they're bad.  But I think that's highly subjective conclusion and if we polled people from around the world on their perspective, we might get a different answer.   

That's it, it is just wrong, no buts about it. Why qualify an unmitagated evil with a but but but? 

[SoCal Deek]

25 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

See, that's why it's important to read history. We funded Great Britain's defence against Nazi's tyranny, this is the same. 

 

 

 

Who is this “ we” you speak of Tibs? Once again your spelling has exposed that you aren’t an American. 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

See, that's why it's important to read history. We funded Great Britain's defence against Nazi's tyranny, this is the same. 

 

 

That's it, it is just wrong, no buts about it. Why qualify an unmitagated evil with a but but but? 

My comment doesn't seek to make any moral judgment.  Just a numerical count.  So tell me, which country has intervened in the affairs of other nations more than America?  

Edited June 17, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[BillsFanNC]

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tommy Callahan]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

 

IS the Ukrainian army trained on that equipment.

[ALF]

2 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

IS the Ukrainian army trained on that equipment.

 

Read a experienced Ukraine fighter  pilot would take about 4 months to learn the F-16

[Tiberius]

On 6/17/2023 at 11:57 AM, SoCal Deek said:

Who is this “ we” you speak of Tibs? Once again your spelling has exposed that you aren’t an American. 

The United States, hello? 

 

Now I'm not an American? 

[Tommy Callahan]

2 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

Read a experienced Ukraine fighter  pilot would take about 4 months to learn the F-16

So they would want or need western trainers in the theatre. imagine its the same for the air defense. 

 

few weeks ago reports of an entire patriot missile battery being nailed. also reports of western trainers using the device at the time it was struck.

 

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/patriot-station-batteries-destroyed-hypersonic

 

 

 

 

 

[ALF]

13 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

So they would want or need western trainers in the theatre. imagine its the same for the air defense. 

 

few weeks ago reports of an entire patriot missile battery being nailed. also reports of western trainers using the device at the time it was struck.

 

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/patriot-station-batteries-destroyed-hypersonic

 

 

 

 

 

 

Poland or other NATO countries would be a safer place to train. They must have needed the patriot batteries operating immediately with ojt 

[All_Pro_Bills]

16 minutes ago, ALF said:

 

Poland or other NATO countries would be a safer place to train. They must have needed the patriot batteries operating immediately with ojt 

From the article its sounds like a hypersonic missile travels too fast to be intercepted by the system as currently configured and unless some wiz kid can re-program the targeting computer to adjust for objects moving that fast no amount of training is going to compensate for that technological advantage. 

[Tiberius]

35 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

From the article its sounds like a hypersonic missile travels too fast to be intercepted by the system as currently configured and unless some wiz kid can re-program the targeting computer to adjust for objects moving that fast no amount of training is going to compensate for that technological advantage. 

They are being shot down, at least that's the story going round 

 

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2023/05/23/ukraine-and-the-kinzhal-dont-believe-the-hypersonic-hype/

[B-Man]

 

 

 

No wonder they don't want a debate.

 

 

 

[sherpa]

Typically, the most challenging problem is not tracking, it is fusing.

The closure speeds are so incredible that the kill zone time is milliseconds or less, and fuses just aren't fast enough.

 

Solving that problem is what allowed the US to pioneer all aspect heat seekers, ie., no more need to bbe looking up the tailpipe when firing, you could shoot them in the face.

That's why we called the Sidewinder variant that was developed as an all aspect missile the "Lipwinder."

 

There are other ways to engage hypers.

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, Chris farley said:

So they would want or need western trainers in the theatre. imagine its the same for the air defense. 

 

few weeks ago reports of an entire patriot missile battery being nailed. also reports of western trainers using the device at the time it was struck.

 

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/patriot-station-batteries-destroyed-hypersonic

 

 

 

 

 

There is literally nothing in this article that says that they were American trainers that were hit only the patriot missile system itself

 

I work right next to one of these in the Middle East during desert storm they are really something

[Tommy Callahan]

22 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

There is literally nothing in this article that says that they were American trainers that were hit only the patriot missile system itself

 

I work right next to one of these in the Middle East during desert storm they are really something

That article no.  And nothing to say the western trainers were American.  

 

They are amazing. But have shown flaws with hypersonic or small drone attacks.  But warfare always adapts 

[Tiberius]

36 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Typically, the most challenging problem is not tracking, it is fusing.

The closure speeds are so incredible that the kill zone time is milliseconds or less, and fuses just aren't fast enough.

 

Solving that problem is what allowed the US to pioneer all aspect heat seekers, ie., no more need to bbe looking up the tailpipe when firing, you could shoot them in the face.

That's why we called the Sidewinder variant that was developed as an all aspect missile the "Lipwinder."

 

There are other ways to engage hypers.

Are you talking about proximity fuses? 

[sherpa]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

Are you talking about proximity fuses? 

 

Ya.

They all use active proximity fuses, but without getting into a huge discussion on fusing a missile, the objective is to keep the warhead as small as possible so the missile is lighter and more maneuverable.

In the old days of butt shots, if the shooter and the target were roughly the same speed, the closure would be simply the missiles speed, nominally, a bit more than mach. The two aircraft would cancel each other out.

 

In a head on shot, a Sidewinder L variant or later, for example, the closure speed is (launch aircraft+missile velocity+target velocity), so let's say close to mach 2 to 3.

 

That means the fuse has tremendously less time to determine where the target is, (these are "aimed" blasts, not simply explosions), send the command and allow for detonation and get the shrap into the target.

 

A US F-18 drilled an Iraqi Mig with a Sidewinder right at the min range for a headon, and is was figured to be right around a mach 3 end game.

 

Obviously, a hyper would challenge to solve a mach 6 kill zone time period.

That is really, really hard.

 

Still, there are other ways.