Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Roundybout]

On 2/9/2023 at 4:28 PM, B-Man said:

 

 

NO KIDDING.

 

 

 

 

Not surprised you're quoting a communist publication like Jacobin. 

[ALF]

25 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Honest question Tibs: Do you believe Russia’s goal was to take over all of Ukraine or to annex the eastern provinces that they seem to believe are more Russian than Ukrainian? 

 

The last thing Russia wants is to take over all of a destroyed Ukraine that will take a fortune to repair. The Ukraine people will always resist any Russian occupation forever. Putin made a fatal mistake.

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, ALF said:

 

The last thing Russia wants is to take over all of a destroyed Ukraine that will take a fortune to repair. The Ukraine people will always resist any Russian occupation forever. Putin made a fatal mistake.

Thanks, but that wasn’t the question that I asked. 

[Tiberius]

“Putin thought he could defeat Ukraine quickly, fracture the NATO alliance, and act with impunity. He was wrong,” the top US general said. “Ukraine remains free, they remain independent. NATO and this coalition has never been stronger, and Russia is now a global pariah. And the world remains inspired by Ukrainian bravery and resilience. In short, Russia has lost — they’ve lost strategically, operationally, and tactically, and they are paying an enormous price on the battlefield.”

 

And they are not done losing! 

 

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-2-14-23/h_b4edf4b7b5c3e900908e0a12354b705d

 

Truly stupid for Putin to continue this war. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

33 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

“Putin thought he could defeat Ukraine quickly, fracture the NATO alliance, and act with impunity. He was wrong,” the top US general said. “Ukraine remains free, they remain independent. NATO and this coalition has never been stronger, and Russia is now a global pariah. And the world remains inspired by Ukrainian bravery and resilience. In short, Russia has lost — they’ve lost strategically, operationally, and tactically, and they are paying an enormous price on the battlefield.”

 

And they are not done losing! 

 

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news/russia-ukraine-war-news-2-14-23/h_b4edf4b7b5c3e900908e0a12354b705d

 

Truly stupid for Putin to continue this war. 

It's been extremely costly for he and Russia.  Is he in too deep to stop?  Somehow he needs a face saving gesture and he might get out.

[The Frankish Reich]

7 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Honest question Tibs: Do you believe Russia’s goal was to take over all of Ukraine or to annex the eastern provinces that they seem to believe are more Russian than Ukrainian? 

I’m not Tibs, but … I’m light of what Putin has said and done over the last year, why would you believe anything OTHER than Putin is trying to annex the whole of Ukraine? The “limited eastern provinces” action was there for the taking. It is highly doubtful that Russian tanks rolling into and staying in the Donbas alone would’ve met with this type of resistance. No. It started with bombing of major cities and a campaign of terror accompanied by tanks rolling straight to Kiev. I tend to believe a tyrant when he says what he’s going to do and then proceeds to try to do it. 

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I’m not Tibs, but … I’m light of what Putin has said and done over the last year, why would you believe anything OTHER than Putin is trying to annex the whole of Ukraine? The “limited eastern provinces” action was there for the taking. It is highly doubtful that Russian tanks rolling into and staying in the Donbas alone would’ve met with this type of resistance. No. It started with bombing of major cities and a campaign of terror accompanied by tanks rolling straight to Kiev. I tend to believe a tyrant when he says what he’s going to do and then proceeds to try to do it. 

Thanks for the response. I’m not sure that I agree, but I appreciate your perspective. 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

13 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I’m not Tibs, but … I’m light of what Putin has said and done over the last year, why would you believe anything OTHER than Putin is trying to annex the whole of Ukraine? The “limited eastern provinces” action was there for the taking. It is highly doubtful that Russian tanks rolling into and staying in the Donbas alone would’ve met with this type of resistance. No. It started with bombing of major cities and a campaign of terror accompanied by tanks rolling straight to Kiev. I tend to believe a tyrant when he says what he’s going to do and then proceeds to try to do it. 

he wants Poland as well.  not bloody likely.

[Tiberius]

This is how I assume things are. Quick thread Russia's "offensive" 

 

 

7 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Honest question Tibs: Do you believe Russia’s goal was to take over all of Ukraine or to annex the eastern provinces that they seem to believe are more Russian than Ukrainian? 

Was? Maybe. Now they just want to keep Crimea 

[Biden is Mentally Fit]

Who will be most negatively affected? The Ukrainian people or Tiberius?

[All_Pro_Bills]

10 hours ago, JDHillFan said:

Who will be most negatively affected? The Ukrainian people or Tiberius?

That's a tough question.  In my view this adventure was destined to be a disaster from the beginning.  You just need to look at the DC team's party neutral record of consistent foreign policy failures and blunders to understand that expectation.  So anyone that reflexively buys into the story lines peddled by our government is going to end up disappointed more often than not.  Whether they can reconcile their unquestioned obedience and belief with the reality of that outcome is doubtful.  They'll go down swinging insisting it was the right thing to do regardless of the result.

 

Any foreign leader that jumps into bed with the DC establishment like the Ukrainian leadership has under Zelensky to engage your country in a proxy war of attrition with one of Washington's adversaries should understand from the start that a happy ending in these situations is a rarity.  Over time administrations change, policies change, priorities change, arrangements and alliances change too.  Eventually, they'll sell you out like they do everyone else they have in the past.       

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

17 hours ago, Tiberius said:

This is how I assume things are. Quick thread Russia's "offensive" 

 

 

Was? Maybe. Now they just want to keep Crimea 

I’m not sure that I understand your response. You agree that Putin’s objective was only to annex the eastern provinces? 

[Tiberius]

5 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m not sure that I understand your response. You agree that Putin’s objective was only to annex the eastern provinces? 

His initial goal was conquering the whole country, you remember that wild scene at Kiev airport with CNN reporter walking up to a soldier and asking if he had seen the Russians and the reply was, "We are the Russians!" 

 

The paratroopers tried to take airport, establish a forward supply base and the armor was suppose to break through to them. But the Ukrainians counter attacked and wiped out the paratrooper. 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

His initial goal was conquering the whole country, you remember that wild scene at Kiev airport with CNN reporter walking up to a soldier and asking if he had seen the Russians and the reply was, "We are the Russians!" 

 

The paratroopers tried to take airport, establish a forward supply base and the armor was suppose to break through to them. But the Ukrainians counter attacked and wiped out the paratrooper. 

Thanks Tibs….it’s not always easy to understand what people are really trying to say on these forums. I’m not sure I agree that that was really the goal but you may be right. 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

On 2/14/2023 at 4:15 PM, redtail hawk said:

he wants Poland as well.  not bloody likely.

Poland now, unbelievably, has probably the most powerful army in Europe.   Russia would be crazy to try at this point.  Who knows though,  Putin seems like he lost his marbles, he certainly wanted Poland.  Too many yes men around you seems to lead to horrible consequences. 

[Tiberius]

Hmmm…,

 

 

[Coffeesforclosers]

14 minutes ago, L Ron Burgundy said:

Poland now, unbelievably, has probably the most powerful army in Europe.   Russia would be crazy to try at this point.  Who knows though,  Putin seems like he lost his marbles, he certainly wanted Poland.  Too many yes men around you seems to lead to horrible consequences. 

 

Russia made many, many blunders to get where it is now. But near the top of the list is attacking the only country in Europe that had the sheer size, number of soldiers, and amount of gear to conduct an old fashioned conventional war for more than a few months.  Any other European country, including the first tier European powers, would have been ground into burger or forced to resort to nuclear blackmail months ago.

 

Poland just learned that lesson very, very quickly. And of course there's the lesson they learned in WWII, where 1/3 of their population was murdered in combined Nazi/Soviet occupations... after Western Europe guaranteed their security, then hung them out to dry.  A little bit of self reliance when it comes to defense fits the bill.

 

They also gave pretty much their whole Soviet era tank inventory to Ukraine. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Joe Ferguson forever]

https://news.yahoo.com/ukraines-priority-hold-line-global-043239265.html