Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[TSOL]

8 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

Ain't that America... 

[Tiberius]

These will help to bog down the Russian offensive and cripple their logistics. 

 

 

[cle23]

5 hours ago, TSOL said:

 

 

You know the plan is to deplete our weapons and fuel in Ukraine before China hits Taiwan, right? 

 

Do you know how much fuel those tanks take? Now, are we giving them the fuel too? Or just the tanks? 

 

China can't take Taiwan without killing themselves.  If the world sanctions China like they did Russia, hundreds of millions of people will die in China.  And the Chinese know it.  They can't feed themselves, and they can't create anywhere near enough energy on their own.

 

How do you know all these world secrets anyway?

[B-Man]

THESE are our allies  ??

 

 

. Because nothing says you're on the righteous side of history like making those who oppose your viewpoints wear a scarlet letter. 

 

(Maybe, just maybe, this isn't black and white - isn't just good guys versus bad guys.

 

Maybe, just maybe, it's reality where the truth is always in the middle).

 

[L Ron Burgundy]

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

THESE are our allies  ??

 

 

. Because nothing says you're on the righteous side of history like making those who oppose your viewpoints wear a scarlet letter. 

 

(Maybe, just maybe, this isn't black and white - isn't just good guys versus bad guys.

 

Maybe, just maybe, it's reality where the truth is always in the middle).

 

Just because you support Ukraines fight here does not mean you support everything about the country.   It'd mostly a corrupt crap hole.  But they are trying to get away from the Russian model.  They want to be part of the West.  It's not easy to change when a superpower constantly f's with you.  

 

If we step aside what country is next?  Russia's army is a joke but they will keep sending people through the meat grinder.  

[Tiberius]

10 hours ago, B-Man said:

THESE are our allies  ??

 

 

. Because nothing says you're on the righteous side of history like making those who oppose your viewpoints wear a scarlet letter. 

 

(Maybe, just maybe, this isn't black and white - isn't just good guys versus bad guys.

 

Maybe, just maybe, it's reality where the truth is always in the middle).

 

 I love the USA even though its got a knot head like you saying stupid things. 

 

Your argument is just beneath stupid 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

A contingent of military officials is quietly pushing the Pentagon to approve sending F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine to help the country defend itself from Russian missile and drone attacks, according to three people with knowledge of the discussions.

Ukraine has kept American-made F-16s on its weapons wish list since the Russian invasion last year. But Washington and Kyiv have viewed artillery, armor and ground-based air defense systems as more urgent needs as Ukraine seeks to protect civilian infrastructure and claw back ground occupied by Russian forces.

Despite the age of Ukraine’s jets, Kyiv’s integrated air defenses have kept Russia from dominating its skies since the Feb. 24 invasion.

But now, officials are concerned that Ukraine is running out of missiles to protect its skies. Once its arsenal is depleted, Russia’s advanced fighter jets will be able to move in and Kyiv “will not be able to compete,” said the DoD official involved in the discussions.

 

 

Modern fighter jets could be one solution to this problem, argues a group of military officials in the Pentagon and elsewhere. F-16s carry air-to-air missiles that can shoot down incoming missiles and drones. And unlike the Patriots and National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems the West is currently sending, fighter jets can move around an area quickly to protect different targets.

“If they get [F-16] Vipers and they have an active air-to-air missile with the radar the F-16 currently has with some electronic protection, now it’s an even game,” the DoD official said.

 

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/28/pentagon-send-f-16s-ukraine-00080045

[reddogblitz]

12 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

“If they get [F-16] Vipers and they have an active air-to-air missile with the radar the F-16 currently has with some electronic protection, now it’s an even game,” the DoD official said.

 

Good. This is exactly what we want. An even "game" so it will last a long time and military industrial complex can sell them a lot of bombs.

 

What's good for General Dynamics is good for America.

[B-Man]

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Good. This is exactly what we want. An even "game" so it will last a long time and military industrial complex can sell them a lot of bombs.

 

What's good for General Dynamics is good for America.

 

and many more will die.

 

 

But as Tibsy says, you know, now its an "even game"

 

 

 

 

ITS NOT A GAME !

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by B-Man

[Coffeesforclosers]

35 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

A contingent of military officials is quietly pushing the Pentagon to approve sending F-16 fighter jets to Ukraine to help the country defend itself from Russian missile and drone attacks, according to three people with knowledge of the discussions.

Ukraine has kept American-made F-16s on its weapons wish list since the Russian invasion last year. But Washington and Kyiv have viewed artillery, armor and ground-based air defense systems as more urgent needs as Ukraine seeks to protect civilian infrastructure and claw back ground occupied by Russian forces.

Despite the age of Ukraine’s jets, Kyiv’s integrated air defenses have kept Russia from dominating its skies since the Feb. 24 invasion.

But now, officials are concerned that Ukraine is running out of missiles to protect its skies. Once its arsenal is depleted, Russia’s advanced fighter jets will be able to move in and Kyiv “will not be able to compete,” said the DoD official involved in the discussions.

 

 

Modern fighter jets could be one solution to this problem, argues a group of military officials in the Pentagon and elsewhere. F-16s carry air-to-air missiles that can shoot down incoming missiles and drones. And unlike the Patriots and National Advanced Surface-to-Air Missile Systems the West is currently sending, fighter jets can move around an area quickly to protect different targets.

“If they get [F-16] Vipers and they have an active air-to-air missile with the radar the F-16 currently has with some electronic protection, now it’s an even game,” the DoD official said.

 

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/01/28/pentagon-send-f-16s-ukraine-00080045

 

Eh, that's a big ask. At least F-16s are a proven design with working assembly lines.  But if their air defense network is running short on missiles, then they need anti-aircraft assets that can be acquired maintained and replaced reliably.

 

If they can get F-16s up and running, more power to them. Ukraine's been very adaptable and creative.  But again that's a tall order.  

[Tiberius]

13 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Eh, that's a big ask. At least F-16s are a proven design with working assembly lines.  But if their air defense network is running short on missiles, then they need anti-aircraft assets that can be acquired maintained and replaced reliably.

 

If they can get F-16s up and running, more power to them. Ukraine's been very adaptable and creative.  But again that's a tall order.  

I was interested in what they wanted them for. Seems to me drones would be easier to learn and use. I had not thought of it as an anti-missile platform. If that really is the case, then yes, as you say, more power to them 

14 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Good. This is exactly what we want. An even "game" so it will last a long time and military industrial complex can sell them a lot of bombs.

 

What's good for General Dynamics is good for America.

Freedom isn't free 

14 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

 

and many more will die.

 

 

But as Tibsy says, you know, now its an "even game"

 

 

 

 

ITS NOT A GAME !

 

 

It sure isn't, and that's why we should keep supplying weapons for this free people to defend themselves 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

How many have they estimated to be killed so far?  100K russians?  100K ukranian soldiers?  30 K civilians?  

 

you know what would really help slowing those numbers?  More and advanced weapons to that region.

 

 

Notice how they used to constantly report these numbers but is harder and harder to come by anymore.

 

 

[reddogblitz]

4 hours ago, Tiberius said:

Freedom isn't free 

 

Thanks W.

[sherpa]

5 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

I was interested in what they wanted them for. Seems to me drones would be easier to learn and use. I had not thought of it as an anti-missile platform. If that really is the case, then yes, as you say, more power to them 

 

 

 

You've lost me here.

How is the F-16 an "anti missile platform?"

[All_Pro_Bills]

18 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Eh, that's a big ask. At least F-16s are a proven design with working assembly lines.  But if their air defense network is running short on missiles, then they need anti-aircraft assets that can be acquired maintained and replaced reliably.

 

If they can get F-16s up and running, more power to them. Ukraine's been very adaptable and creative.  But again that's a tall order.  

There are a lot of issues here.  Like how many "spare" F-16's are just laying around?  Will providing planes take away from operational readiness elsewhere?  Where and what are the risks?  What's the capacity to build new aircraft if necessary?  Is there sufficient materials on hand or is there procurement?  What about parts and maintenance costs and material?  They can't wave a magic wand and poof, F-16's appear and with trained pilots out of thin air.  There's a lot of details to work out,  Maybe somebody has done that already?  But I for sure can't say.  

 

And while I'm no authority on training fighter pilots but from what I can find it might take a minimum of 9 months to certify trained F-16 pilots.  Maybe less in a crunch or with veteran pilots but most likely there's a significant amount of time between when planes might be provided and when they can become operational.  And not even discussing training and staffing ground support and maintenance.  So from today you might be looking at November to get squadrons airborne.  I don't think its possible to predict what the situation on the ground will be then.   

[Tiberius]

19 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

You've lost me here.

How is the F-16 an "anti missile platform?"

That's what Ukraine is arguing they need them for, which I admit had me surprised, also 

[sherpa]

33 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

That's what Ukraine is arguing they need them for, which I admit had me surprised, also 

 

I am not interested in what Ukraine is suggesting.

I am interested in how they will be used as an anti missile platform.

I am also interested in how it is a good idea to use them on unimproved, Soviet/Russia grid pattern runways, which they are not designed to operate on, and how they will handle the hydrazine issue, peculiar to the F-16.

 

The Swedish Gripen is a much better alternative.

[aristocrat]

 

[reddogblitz]

35 minutes ago, aristocrat said:

 

 

How could/did the US block an agreement between 2 sovereign countries?