Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tenhigh]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

What is your point? 

Dear lord Tibs.  Who do you think would be the West's cannon fodder in a proxy war with Russia?

[Tommy Callahan]

7 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Dear lord Tibs.  Who do you think would be the West's cannon fodder in a proxy war with Russia?

you had it at think.  I doubt that's involved much when mashing the keyboard by that one.

[Tiberius]

7 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Dear lord Tibs.  Who do you think would be the West's cannon fodder in a proxy war with Russia?

So you are saying we are using Ukranian's as cannon fodder? That sounds like a really stupid point. 

 

Are you sure you even understand what you are saying? 

 

If you do, please explain how we are using them that way? 

1 minute ago, Chris farley said:

you had it at think.  I doubt that's involved much when mashing the keyboard by that one.

How is your anti-democracy crusade going dumb dumb? 

[Coffeesforclosers]

9 hours ago, Chris farley said:

outside of western media, not so much.

 

many outside of the US see the 2013 Euromaidan as western backed/sanctioned coup.  

 

Its just smart to have a goal when going to war.

 

Kinda again goes back to post 9/11 changes that gave the white house more war powers. 

 

As long as there is WAR in that country, the people of that country are suffering.   from the mass exodus and refugee issue to the ones staying and trying to live with nonstop falling bombs and drone attacks.

 

Those are all good points, but how are they relevant?  Putin was the only person who could order the invasion, and he ordered the invasion. 

 

Before February 24th, 2022, Putin was an adult in the room.  He could have rolled up his sleeves, pulled in the other adults, and done the hard work of diplomacy to hammer out a compromise on Ukraine that would have humiliated the us, difused the crisis, strengthened China, sown deeper divsions in NATO, and kept Russia's enormous petrochemical leverage over European economics intact.

 

Instead, he decided to go off on some hair brained imperial adventure that he can't get out of.  At the end of the day, it's not out job to be Team America: World Cop, and it's not our job to help Russia out of the mess it's gotten itself into.  And there's nothing bad about supporting the Ukrainians with what they need until the country that attacked them stops attacking them.  In fact, it might even disincentivize future aggression, for those of us who still believe in incentivizing good behavior and disincentivizing bad behavior.

 

Russia is NOT in fact, too big to fail, and we ZERO interest in bailing them out. And if the Ukrainians want to keep fighting, by all means and with our support.  It's not my place to tell a people when and how they can defend hearth and home, especially when the people doing the attacking hate my guts and want to turn Ukraine into the next closest thing to an Indian Reservation at best.

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Coffeesforclosers

[Joe Ferguson forever]

10 hours ago, Tenhigh said:

Dear lord Tibs.  Who do you think would be the West's cannon fodder in a proxy war with Russia?

Ukranians want to fight.  They clearly don't see being a colony of Russia as a viable alternative.  I suspect most would rather die fighting than die or become slaves during Russian occupation.  Stalin starved millions of Ukrainians to death.   They remember.  Early in the war, I attended a Rotary International Zoom meeting that included Ukranian Rotary presidents.   Their hate of the Russians is palpable but as a civic group were most concerned with humanitarian aid.   They don't require encouragement to fight.  So not cannon fodder.  Inspired and ferocious warriors that are winning...and without American blood being spilled.

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

Edited January 12, 2023 by redtail hawk

[Tommy Callahan]

7 hours ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Those are all good points, but how are they relevant?  Putin was the only person who could order the invasion, and he ordered the invasion. 

 

Before February 24th, 2022, Putin was an adult in the room.  He could have rolled up his sleeves, pulled in the other adults, and done the hard work of diplomacy to hammer out a compromise on Ukraine that would have humiliated the us, difused the crisis, strengthened China, sown deeper divsions in NATO, and kept Russia's enormous petrochemical leverage over European economics intact.

 

Instead, he decided to go off on some hair brained imperial adventure that he can't get out of.  At the end of the day, it's not out job to be Team America: World Cop, and it's not our job to help Russia out of the mess it's gotten itself into.  And there's nothing bad about supporting the Ukrainians with what they need until the country that attacked them stops attacking them.  In fact, it might even disincentivize future aggression, for those of us who still believe in incentivizing good behavior and disincentivizing bad behavior.

 

Russia is NOT in fact, too big to fail, and we ZERO interest in bailing them out. And if the Ukrainians want to keep fighting, by all means and with our support.  It's not my place to tell a people when and how they can defend hearth and home, especially when the people doing the attacking hate my guts and want to turn Ukraine into the next closest thing to an Indian Reservation at best.

 

Um. Euromaiden in 2014.  Dunbas and Crimea counter revolt in 2014.  Russia has been in Ukraine since 2014.  

The invasion was in 2014.  Not 2022 

 

Who said anything about to big to fail or bailing out.  Their economy isn't hurting 

 

 

5 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

Ukranians want to fight.  They clearly don't see being a colony of Russia as a viable alternative.  I suspect most would rather die fighting than die or become slaves during Russian occupation.  Stalin starved millions of Ukrainians to death.   They remember.  Early in the war, I attended a Rotary International Zoom meeting that included Ukranian Rotary presidents.   Their hate of the Russians is palpable but as a civic group were most concerned with humanitarian aid.   They don't require encouragement to fight.  So not cannon fodder.  Inspired and ferocious warriors that are winning...and without American blood being spilled.

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

Most Ukraine citizens in the fighting areas are refugees in Poland.  

[PetermansRedemption]

22 hours ago, LDD said:

Shouldn't there actually be bi-partisan agreement that Russia needs put in its place and the Ukranian people should have access to weapons to defend themselves?  

I don’t think you’ll get a bi-partisan agreement on much when it comes to spending money. 

[Tiberius]

23 hours ago, Chris farley said:

outside of western media, not so much.

 

many outside of the US see the 2013 Euromaidan as western backed/sanctioned coup.  

 

Its just smart to have a goal when going to war.

 

Kinda again goes back to post 9/11 changes that gave the white house more war powers. 

 

As long as there is WAR in that country, the people of that country are suffering.   from the mass exodus and refugee issue to the ones staying and trying to live with nonstop falling bombs and drone attacks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WTF  are you pissing out here? 

[Tenhigh]

12 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

Ukranians want to fight.  They clearly don't see being a colony of Russia as a viable alternative.  I suspect most would rather die fighting than die or become slaves during Russian occupation.  Stalin starved millions of Ukrainians to death.   They remember.  Early in the war, I attended a Rotary International Zoom meeting that included Ukranian Rotary presidents.   Their hate of the Russians is palpable but as a civic group were most concerned with humanitarian aid.   They don't require encouragement to fight.  So not cannon fodder.  Inspired and ferocious warriors that are winning...and without American blood being spilled.

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

Cannon fodder is cannon fodder, voluntary or not.   

[Tommy Callahan]

Wonder how much that Penn’s Biden Center for Diplomacy and Global Engagement think tank was involved in our Ukrainian foreign policy.

 

you know. the place where they found the classified Biden Docs. 

 

Wonder if that place keeps visitor logs

 

 

 

 

 

 

15 hours ago, redtail hawk said:

Ukranians want to fight.  They clearly don't see being a colony of Russia as a viable alternative.  I suspect most would rather die fighting than die or become slaves during Russian occupation.  Stalin starved millions of Ukrainians to death.   They remember.  Early in the war, I attended a Rotary International Zoom meeting that included Ukranian Rotary presidents.   Their hate of the Russians is palpable but as a civic group were most concerned with humanitarian aid.   They don't require encouragement to fight.  So not cannon fodder.  Inspired and ferocious warriors that are winning...and without American blood being spilled.

https://www.history.com/news/ukrainian-famine-stalin

Most of the Ukrainians I know hate Communism more than anything. Russia is a close second.

 

 the Holodomor is why many of them dont trust or expect anything from the state.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Big Blitz]

It’s like something I saw in The Boys

 

 

 

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

Probably have been training for months and are just announcing now. I'd guess the same is true of other weapons systems. Hellfire missiles!  

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tiberius]

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

49 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

 

Have you seen stories such as the NYT's report on how these weapons transfers are starting to impact the US military's preparedness levels?  Drawing down stockpiles to the point where inventory in strategic areas of potential conflict are being depleted.  Drawing down military hardware inventory in places like Israel and South Korea.  Being used up faster than they can be replaced and straining supplies of key and scarce inputs.  To the point where military leaders and Pentagon planners are raising concerns that draw downs are putting direct U.S. interests and US forces at risk.  I expect a news outlet such as The Times publishing such a report signals were approaching some policy tipping point.  

 

I believe the implication is that like all recent wars and conflicts our government gets involved in they will sooner rather than later shift focus elsewhere or no longer view helping Ukraine as a key interest.  And hang them out to dry, aka Afghanistan.  Then suddenly all the people shouting to the rafters about the need to provide unlimited support for democracy will immediately alter their opinions and support the establishments change of heart and direction.  Most likely shifting the task completely onto our European "partners" and when that strategy flops placing the blame for failure on them. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Have you seen stories such as the NYT's report on how these weapons transfers are starting to impact the US military's preparedness levels?  Drawing down stockpiles to the point where inventory in strategic areas of potential conflict are being depleted.  Drawing down military hardware inventory in places like Israel and South Korea.  Being used up faster than they can be replaced and straining supplies of key and scarce inputs.  To the point where military leaders and Pentagon planners are raising concerns that draw downs are putting direct U.S. interests and US forces at risk.  I expect a news outlet such as The Times publishing such a report signals were approaching some policy tipping point.  

 

I believe the implication is that like all recent wars and conflicts our government gets involved in they will sooner rather than later shift focus elsewhere or no longer view helping Ukraine as a key interest.  And hang them out to dry, aka Afghanistan.  Then suddenly all the people shouting to the rafters about the need to provide unlimited support for democracy will immediately alter their opinions and support the establishments change of heart and direction.  Most likely shifting the task completely onto our European "partners" and when that strategy flops placing the blame for failure on them. 

lol, so who's military is less prepared now, the USA's or Russia's? 

 

Our military is also hugely benefitting from the experience of testing our weapons, seeing what terrorist Putin can do and how we can destroy them. 

 

Russia should just leave Crimea 

[sherpa]

Regarding inventories, I posted this on Dec. 9 in this forum:

 

"First on an inventory note, I was watching the CEO of Raytheon on CNBC the other day and he mentioned that in the first ten months of this war, Ukraine had gone through ten years of Javelin production and fifteen years of Stinger production.

Obviously, we need to get those, or replacements back up to acceptable inventories."

[SoCal Deek]

43 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Regarding inventories, I posted this on Dec. 9 in this forum:

 

"First on an inventory note, I was watching the CEO of Raytheon on CNBC the other day and he mentioned that in the first ten months of this war, Ukraine had gone through ten years of Javelin production and fifteen years of Stinger production.

Obviously, we need to get those, or replacements back up to acceptable inventories."

Why would this be shocking? Missiles need a conflict to be consumed. We ended one conflict and immediately jumped into another one. It’s good for business! 

[PetermansRedemption]

50 minutes ago, sherpa said:

Regarding inventories, I posted this on Dec. 9 in this forum:

 

"First on an inventory note, I was watching the CEO of Raytheon on CNBC the other day and he mentioned that in the first ten months of this war, Ukraine had gone through ten years of Javelin production and fifteen years of Stinger production.

Obviously, we need to get those, or replacements back up to acceptable inventories."

This is concerning. Imagine the production the US would go through if we ever got involved in a war against a competent enemy? We probably need a 40 year stock pile. 

Edited January 19, 2023 by PetermansRedemption