Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Coffeesforclosers]

6 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

And all of that only happened in 2022? Sure….keep selling those talking points. Somebody is bound to buy them. 

 

Talking points? Sorry bud, but while Vlad isn't the invincible mastermind every President for the last 20 years has thought he was, he's still not dumb.  If all the reasons I outlined were true, and Russia thought they were, he'd be an idiot NOT to invade.  Because the West would be IRRELEVANT. So he invaded.

 

Again, this is the explanation EVERYONE knows.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

1 minute ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

 

Talking points? Sorry bud, but while Vlad isn't the invincible mastermind every President for the last 20 years has thought he was, he's still not dumb.  If all the reasons I outlined were true, and Russia thought they were, he'd be an idiot NOT to invade.  Because the West would be IRRELEVANT. So he invaded.

 

Again, this is the explanation EVERYONE knows.

 

 

And let me guess….he placed a stickie note on his refrigerator to wait until 2022. Okie Dokie….sure…there’s no elephant in the room. 

[Roundybout]

58 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

Can’t wait to see the math and utter panic when the CCP and WHO (which will say so after telling the world nothing to see here) release the virus with a 10% IFR

 

Man.  Gonna be full prison camps - it’s why they need you to get used to eating insects.  
 

 

 

You lunatics have no clue what you opened the door to in March 2020.  Cowards.  All you.   I’m sure warning about a global shut down and 6 feet for life back in 2019 because they want Trumpism gone was crazy talk to…..or not libs will go along with any and statist policies that lead to the end of liberty, freedom, America.  
 

But look -  Ukraine and Democracy!!!

What’s it like living in daily, constant, paralyzing fear of the government? Must be a miserable experience. 

[reddogblitz]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

 

Your own article lays out the real reason for US involvement.

 

Quote

 

Wars are shop windows for defense manufacturers; any buyer in their right mind will want the technology made by the winner. Putin’s misjudgment has merely provided a fantastic marketing opportunity for its Western competitors.  

 

Note also that the war is also pushing NATO partners to quickly increase spending to the 2% of GDP and above target. Given the US’ technological advantage in defense equipment, a sizeable share of this additional military outlay will be spent on US equipment.  

 

The Military Industrial Complex is gonna make out like a bandit.  Again.

 

And very rarely does one side "win" a war.  WWII the allies won cuz we had nukes and no one else did.  It was an anomaly. Usually a war ends when someone says enough is enough and both sides agree like WW I. Or one side says bag it and evacuated the last people with a helicopter off the top of a building like Viet Nam, Korea, and Afganistan.  or like the Russians in Afganistan.  And that's after decades of bloody fighting.  But the Military Industrial Complex ALWAYS wins.

 

What's good for GM is good for America.

[Big Blitz]

32 minutes ago, Roundybout said:

What’s it like living in daily, constant, paralyzing fear of the government? Must be a miserable experience. 

 

You should be concerned that government doesn’t live in fear of you. 

[sherpa]

6 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

  But the Military Industrial Complex ALWAYS wins.

 

 

Because they provide very effective products built to specifications that the government, (with a lot of advice), requests.

The government then assures that its' people are well trained to operate these very effective product, and provides the environment and support necessary to these very effective products to be employed.

Win Win

[Tommy Callahan]

20 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Because they provide very effective products built to specifications that the government, (with a lot of advice), requests.

The government then assures that its' people are well trained to operate these very effective product, and provides the environment and support necessary to these very effective products to be employed.

Win Win

Not a win for the normies/poors that almost always end up on the wrong end of when said weapons are used.

 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Chris farley

[Big Blitz]

Nice suit.  How he dressed pre duped world.  

 

Because this is all theater.  Where are the peace talks?  No one interested?  Or it’s not time to end this sham yet?

But it’s the “war” part in the play so he changed costumes 

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by Big Blitz

[ChiGoose]

20 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Your own article lays out the real reason for US involvement.

 

 

The Military Industrial Complex is gonna make out like a bandit.  Again.

 

And very rarely does one side "win" a war.  WWII the allies won cuz we had nukes and no one else did.  It was an anomaly. Usually a war ends when someone says enough is enough and both sides agree like WW I. Or one side says bag it and evacuated the last people with a helicopter off the top of a building like Viet Nam, Korea, and Afganistan.  or like the Russians in Afganistan.  And that's after decades of bloody fighting.  But the Military Industrial Complex ALWAYS wins.

 

What's good for GM is good for America.

 

Just a reminder that V-E Day was before the nukes.

 

In any case, what's the alternative here? Just let Russia genocide an entire culture? Force Ukraine into a peace deal that gives Putin what he wants and doesn't deter him from doing this again in Ukraine or somewhere else?

 

It's easy to throw stones, but it's much harder to come up with a viable solution to this because the guy behind it all is a murderous dictator who will attempt to take advantage of any perceived weakness.

[sherpa]

15 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

Not for the normies that almost always end up on the wrong end of when said weapons are used.

 

 

Which is why they need to elect or at least exercise some level of control over those who govern them.

The difference between being a citizen or being a subject is something that takes a lot of effort, and the longer it's neglected, the more effort required to change.

When they don't exercise that effort, you get situations like Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, Venezuela and a host of regimes that either abuse the governed, threaten their people, neighbors or both, and/or cause mass exodus as is happening on our southern border.

 

[Tommy Callahan]

15 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

 

Just a reminder that V-E Day was before the nukes.

 

In any case, what's the alternative here? Just let Russia genocide an entire culture? Force Ukraine into a peace deal that gives Putin what he wants and doesn't deter him from doing this again in Ukraine or somewhere else?

 

It's easy to throw stones, but it's much harder to come up with a viable solution to this because the guy behind it all is a murderous dictator who will attempt to take advantage of any perceived weakness.

the funny part is how Russia invaded uke in 2014.  and from 2016 through 2020 Uke forces were attacking those regions.  Then something happened and russia again invaded.

 

Wonder why Putin didn't invade during those years, while that region was being attacked.

 

 

4 minutes ago, sherpa said:

 

Which is why they need to elect or at least exercise some level of control over those who govern them.

The difference between being a citizen or being a subject is something that takes a lot of effort, and the longer it's neglected, the more effort required to change.

When they don't exercise that effort, you get situations like Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, Venezuela and a host of regimes that either abuse the governed, threaten their people, neighbors or both, and/or cause mass exodus as is happening on our southern border.

 

the interesting thing about the border is it went from migrants to asylum. And as long as the USA Asylum packages are more than the median income in those countries, the pull is from here.

 

and the last I checked. Ukraine is in martial law..  

Edited December 23, 2022 by Chris farley

[sherpa]

12 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

 

the interesting thing about the border is it went from migrants to asylum. And as long as the USA Asylum packages are more than the median income in those countries, the pull is from here.

 

 

The "pull" is because the ridiculous claim of asylum makes it much easier to nor enforce laws approved by our legislature, you know, the governmental body elected to make law, that the administration has absolutely no history of enforcing and no intent to do so.

[reddogblitz]

41 minutes ago, ChiGoose said:

 

Just a reminder that V-E Day was before the nukes.

 

In any case, what's the alternative here? Just let Russia genocide an entire culture? Force Ukraine into a peace deal that gives Putin what he wants and doesn't deter him from doing this again in Ukraine or somewhere else?

 

It's easy to throw stones, but it's much harder to come up with a viable solution to this because the guy behind it all is a murderous dictator who will attempt to take advantage of any perceived weakness.

 

True, but the allies didn't win the war on V-E Day, it was the nukes that ended it.  

 

I don't think the solution you propose and congress and President Biden are pursuing will work.  It will only prolong the agony and make the Military Industry Complex richer AGAIN.

 

I am very skeptical about reports of all this winning by Ukraine going on anyway.  The first casualty of war is the truth.  The Ghost of Kyiv comes to mind. What makes you think you're hearing the truth now?

 

I also am not really buying this whole "no boots on the ground" nonsense.  This is what presidents do in the 21st century. Sending in actual troops would be unpopular politically so they send in "contractors" from Black Water and such groups. They don't count.  I'm suspect there are contractor advisors over there right now.  Don't be so sure this won't escalate into us sending troops and airplanes in there. We are playing with fire.

 

Democrats today sound like Republicans in 1967.

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by reddogblitz

[ChiGoose]

13 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

True, but the allies didn't win the war on V-E Day, it was the nukes that ended it.  

 

I don't think the solution you propose and congress and President Biden are pursuing will work.  It will only prolong the agony and make the Military Industry Complex richer AGAIN.

 

I am very skeptical about reports of all this winning by Ukraine going on anyway.  The first casualty of war is the truth.  The Ghost of Kyiv comes to mind. What makes you think you're hearing the truth now?

 

I also am not really buying this whole "no boots on the ground" nonsense.  This is what presidents do in the 21st century. Sending in actual troops would be unpopular politically so they send in "contractors" from Black Water and such groups. They don't count.  I'm suspect there are contractor advisors over there right now.  Don't be so sure this won't escalate into us sending troops and airplanes in there. We are playing with fire.

 

Democrats today sound like Republicans in 1967.

 

 

What is the alternative to supporting Ukraine?

 

Also, independent reporting shows Ukraine as currently winning. They have secured the north, and are continuing to make slow progress in the east and south. Leaked communications from the Russian front shows them as disheveled, unprepared, and unable to successfully push back against Ukraine.

 

The only way to end this immediately is to give Putin what he wants. And even then, he'll just end up wanting more and we'll just end up back here again in Ukraine, or Georgia, or Moldova, or elsewhere.

[Tiberius]

 

[Roundybout]

3 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

You should be concerned that government doesn’t live in fear of you. 

 

It's not 1795 anymore, so no I'm not concerned of this. 

1 hour ago, ChiGoose said:

 

What is the alternative to supporting Ukraine?

 

Also, independent reporting shows Ukraine as currently winning. They have secured the north, and are continuing to make slow progress in the east and south. Leaked communications from the Russian front shows them as disheveled, unprepared, and unable to successfully push back against Ukraine.

 

The only way to end this immediately is to give Putin what he wants. And even then, he'll just end up wanting more and we'll just end up back here again in Ukraine, or Georgia, or Moldova, or elsewhere.

 

Not in la-la land, where Putin won five days into the invasion and everything else is CGI. 

2 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

Nice suit.  How he dressed pre duped world.  

 

Because this is all theater.  Where are the peace talks?  No one interested?  Or it’s not time to end this sham yet?

But it’s the “war” part in the play so he changed costumes 

 

 

Putin tried peace talks where he gets all the territory he wants. Why would Ukraine agree to this?

[reddogblitz]

2 hours ago, ChiGoose said:

 

What is the alternative to supporting Ukraine?

 

Also, independent reporting shows Ukraine as currently winning. They have secured the north, and are continuing to make slow progress in the east and south. Leaked communications from the Russian front shows them as disheveled, unprepared, and unable to successfully push back against Ukraine.

 

The only way to end this immediately is to give Putin what he wants. And even then, he'll just end up wanting more and we'll just end up back here again in Ukraine, or Georgia, or Moldova, or elsewhere.

 

Maybe not supporting Ukraine or at least not to the level we are?  With all the winning I keep hearing about and Russia imploding, why do they need our help so much?  And they're gonna need more more more according to President Zelensky

 

I agree more with President Obama. We can't be the world's police person.  Especially when we can't even fix our own country.

 

They aren't part of NATO and correct me if I'm wrong we have no treaty with them to help if they get in a war.

 

As to the bolded, the domino theory all over again.  Didn't happen when the commies won Viet Nam or Korea although the government and Military Industrial Complex told us it would.

 

Democrats today sound like Republicans in 1967.

Edited December 23, 2022 by reddogblitz

[All_Pro_Bills]

3 hours ago, sherpa said:

 

Which is why they need to elect or at least exercise some level of control over those who govern them.

The difference between being a citizen or being a subject is something that takes a lot of effort, and the longer it's neglected, the more effort required to change.

When they don't exercise that effort, you get situations like Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, Syria, Afghanistan, Venezuela and a host of regimes that either abuse the governed, threaten their people, neighbors or both, and/or cause mass exodus as is happening on our southern border.

 

Generally ascending to power by making either false promises or something for nothing arrangements that turn into a deal with The Devil.  But your point that freedom requires vigilance and effort rings true.  And beware of "leaders" offering help and a free ride.

[ChiGoose]

2 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Maybe not supporting Ukraine or at least not to the level we are?  With all the winning I keep hearing about and Russia imploding, why do they need our help so much?  And they're gonna need more more more according to President Zelensky

 

I agree more with President Obama. We can't be the world's police person.  Especially when we can't even fix our own country.

 

They aren't part of NATO and correct me if I'm wrong we have no treaty with them to help if they get in a war.

 

As to the bolded, the domino theory all over again.  Didn't happen when the commies won Viet Nam or Korea although the government and Military Industrial Complex told us it would.

 

Democrats today sound like Republicans in 1967.

Currently winning the war is not the same as having won the war. Ammunition gets depleted, equipment breaks or is destroyed. The idea that we stop providing supplies once Ukraine has the momentum would only serve to prolong the war as it would stall Ukrainian advances and allow Russia to push back as UA equipment is depleted.

 

Putin has invaded Georgia and then Ukraine twice. If he succeeds in taking over the southern border of Ukraine through Odessa, there is about a 0% chance he wouldn’t move into Transnistria as well. 
 

For a small fraction of our budget, we can destroy the Russian war machine, show Western superiority, make China think twice about Taiwan, and strengthen our alliances. Seems like a bargain. 

[gobills404]

15 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

They need $100 billion to destroy half of a military that had a budget of $65 billion this year????? Pretty pathetic investment if you ask me.